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Our system and lack of width 12:54 - Nov 19 with 1823 viewsbosh67

Much as I think we are vastly improved this season, including yesterday where for the first 30 minutes we put them under a lot of pressure, the biggest problem with the 3-5-2 formation is that there is simply no width or wing play , which means that our front two players are having to come back 40 yards to get the ball , have their back to the goal 90% of the time and have absolutely nothing to run onto from crosses.

This system and personnel also never gets close to the byline to cross, which with players like Smith and Sylla seems vaguely ludicrous. As games wear on we start to get very narrow and bunched up in a cylinder of players all in the middle of the pitch.

We have Wheeler, Wszołek and this kid Samuel who has disappeared recently, plus others who can play right and left wide. Surely it would be worth considering, if we play 3 at the back, dropping Scowen back as a kind of sweeper, where Hall played, having Luongo and Freeman as the two central midfield players, have Wszołek right wing and Wheeler left chucking byline crosses in to the two strikers.

So a 3-1-4-2 formation, which at least would give us some actual width and wing play. It's the one real area which Ollie seems to be blind to. The whole using wingers properly thing. This club has a tradition for good wingers and this seems to be getting lost at the moment. People criticise Smith, Sylla, Washington etc but what exactly are they running onto in the area, facing the goal? Nothing or scraps.

Yesterday Villa realised that everything was going to get launched with snow on it 40 yards out to Smith. Samba and the other CB almost doubled up on him because they knew nothing was coming in from the flanks. Smith was an inch wide with a left foot shot that was the one cross in from the edge of the area on a left foot. Easy to criticise him but that and a very good inverse left cross from Manning were the only two crosses that went near a forward so that they were facing the goal.

It's not rocket science to use width! Or is it?

Never knowingly right.
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Our system and lack of width on 13:30 - Nov 19 with 1782 viewsoldmisery

Couldn't agree more. And in addition to those three wide men, there is Shodipo, Petrasso and Lua-Lua plus arguably Ngbakoto and young Smyth to add to the mix. Surely the best two of those eight would be more effective than Cousins and Bidwell?

As I posted on another thread, one can't attack and the other can't defend. And in the out of form, out of condition and patently out of position Jordan Cousins, can't cross the ball with any real accuracy either!
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Our system and lack of width on 17:50 - Nov 19 with 1669 viewsNorthernr

I'm on the same page as Hunter with this. Love wingers, love width, love crosses into the box. It's very frustrating we don't do that considering we actually have seven wingers on our books, including Wszolek who has shown himself capable of good service from wide, and two of our four strikers are at their best when attacking crosses - Smith, Sylla.

The problem I guess comes with the midfield three. They are our best players, they are playing well, the team selection basically starts with those three and once you've decided that it starts to limit your options. I think we'd all agree that a 4-4-2 with Luongo or Freeman on the wing would be wrong, a waste of them, and would move Scowen away from his protectionist role in front of the back four - do that at your peril IMO, it would be a repeat of when Hall got injured last season.

So maybe you go to one up front, as a 4-1-4-1, or a 4-5-1... well, we know how QPR fans respond to us only starting one striker, and are any of our strikers capable of playing up there by themselves? I have doubts.

So maybe you go to 3-5-2, except the two on either side of the five are actually wingers, not wing backs as now. That's incredibly attacking and leaves a defence that's already getting exposed in wide areas even more exposed in wide areas. That could work down the right, where Wszolek has shown he has the engine to get up and down and do both jobs, but we don't have anybody who can do that wide left.

In the end I think a slight switch to a 4-3-3 may help us on a number of fronts. Firstly, a back four, with a proper right back, preferably Furlong, would stop this problem we have at the moment with Baptiste getting dragged out exposing him and Lynch. By all means go back to a back three when Onuoha and Hall are both fit again, but teams have sussed us now and are going to keep visiting that spot. Secondly, it keeps the midfield three together. Thirdly, we could play any of our seven wingers either side of Smith and Sylla and have them pulling wide as wingers. Wszolek, Shodipo, Samuel and particularly Wheeler would all suit that really well IMO.

But, as I always say, I've never taken a coaching session or picked a team in my life, I know nowt.
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Our system and lack of width (n/t) on 19:06 - Nov 19 with 1594 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Our system and lack of width on 17:50 - Nov 19 by Northernr

I'm on the same page as Hunter with this. Love wingers, love width, love crosses into the box. It's very frustrating we don't do that considering we actually have seven wingers on our books, including Wszolek who has shown himself capable of good service from wide, and two of our four strikers are at their best when attacking crosses - Smith, Sylla.

The problem I guess comes with the midfield three. They are our best players, they are playing well, the team selection basically starts with those three and once you've decided that it starts to limit your options. I think we'd all agree that a 4-4-2 with Luongo or Freeman on the wing would be wrong, a waste of them, and would move Scowen away from his protectionist role in front of the back four - do that at your peril IMO, it would be a repeat of when Hall got injured last season.

So maybe you go to one up front, as a 4-1-4-1, or a 4-5-1... well, we know how QPR fans respond to us only starting one striker, and are any of our strikers capable of playing up there by themselves? I have doubts.

So maybe you go to 3-5-2, except the two on either side of the five are actually wingers, not wing backs as now. That's incredibly attacking and leaves a defence that's already getting exposed in wide areas even more exposed in wide areas. That could work down the right, where Wszolek has shown he has the engine to get up and down and do both jobs, but we don't have anybody who can do that wide left.

In the end I think a slight switch to a 4-3-3 may help us on a number of fronts. Firstly, a back four, with a proper right back, preferably Furlong, would stop this problem we have at the moment with Baptiste getting dragged out exposing him and Lynch. By all means go back to a back three when Onuoha and Hall are both fit again, but teams have sussed us now and are going to keep visiting that spot. Secondly, it keeps the midfield three together. Thirdly, we could play any of our seven wingers either side of Smith and Sylla and have them pulling wide as wingers. Wszolek, Shodipo, Samuel and particularly Wheeler would all suit that really well IMO.

But, as I always say, I've never taken a coaching session or picked a team in my life, I know nowt.


[Post edited 19 Nov 2017 19:17]
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Our system and lack of width on 19:37 - Nov 19 with 1557 viewsBrightonhoop

Our system and lack of width on 17:50 - Nov 19 by Northernr

I'm on the same page as Hunter with this. Love wingers, love width, love crosses into the box. It's very frustrating we don't do that considering we actually have seven wingers on our books, including Wszolek who has shown himself capable of good service from wide, and two of our four strikers are at their best when attacking crosses - Smith, Sylla.

The problem I guess comes with the midfield three. They are our best players, they are playing well, the team selection basically starts with those three and once you've decided that it starts to limit your options. I think we'd all agree that a 4-4-2 with Luongo or Freeman on the wing would be wrong, a waste of them, and would move Scowen away from his protectionist role in front of the back four - do that at your peril IMO, it would be a repeat of when Hall got injured last season.

So maybe you go to one up front, as a 4-1-4-1, or a 4-5-1... well, we know how QPR fans respond to us only starting one striker, and are any of our strikers capable of playing up there by themselves? I have doubts.

So maybe you go to 3-5-2, except the two on either side of the five are actually wingers, not wing backs as now. That's incredibly attacking and leaves a defence that's already getting exposed in wide areas even more exposed in wide areas. That could work down the right, where Wszolek has shown he has the engine to get up and down and do both jobs, but we don't have anybody who can do that wide left.

In the end I think a slight switch to a 4-3-3 may help us on a number of fronts. Firstly, a back four, with a proper right back, preferably Furlong, would stop this problem we have at the moment with Baptiste getting dragged out exposing him and Lynch. By all means go back to a back three when Onuoha and Hall are both fit again, but teams have sussed us now and are going to keep visiting that spot. Secondly, it keeps the midfield three together. Thirdly, we could play any of our seven wingers either side of Smith and Sylla and have them pulling wide as wingers. Wszolek, Shodipo, Samuel and particularly Wheeler would all suit that really well IMO.

But, as I always say, I've never taken a coaching session or picked a team in my life, I know nowt.


Think you're right Norf, we haven't got the quality to play to the strengths of wingers without pulling the midfiled out of shape, despite all the wingers in the squad.
Ollie should take a chance now and again though because it is still the best way to serve Sylla and Smith.
Maybe he'll have a go at Derby.
Villa are a big, tough and expensive squad and despite our strengths in places we are quite minnow like in comparison. We're very much a squad in development with some interesting prospects coming through. We could be quite something in 2 or 3 seasons.
Would love to see wingers flying away and getting the service in.
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Our system and lack of width on 02:38 - Nov 20 with 1411 viewstimcocking

Our strikers' best strength is crosses. We definitely thrive on crosses.

In this back three malarkey, Bidwell isn't really that attacking. Sad to see Pavel has turned so cr@p, he was our best player for a while. Yeah, we're missing wingers.

I don't see the point of playing a back three when we change to a back four during every match. Play one or the other, not both.
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Our system and lack of width on 07:29 - Nov 20 with 1338 viewsdaveB

I think at home the system we are using is fine, last 3 home games have been against the 3 best sides in the league, we've won 2 and narrowly lost one.

Away though I do think we need a bit more width and would probably switch to a 4-2-3-1 on the road
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Our system and lack of width on 09:44 - Nov 20 with 1276 viewsWestbourneR

Our system and lack of width on 17:50 - Nov 19 by Northernr

I'm on the same page as Hunter with this. Love wingers, love width, love crosses into the box. It's very frustrating we don't do that considering we actually have seven wingers on our books, including Wszolek who has shown himself capable of good service from wide, and two of our four strikers are at their best when attacking crosses - Smith, Sylla.

The problem I guess comes with the midfield three. They are our best players, they are playing well, the team selection basically starts with those three and once you've decided that it starts to limit your options. I think we'd all agree that a 4-4-2 with Luongo or Freeman on the wing would be wrong, a waste of them, and would move Scowen away from his protectionist role in front of the back four - do that at your peril IMO, it would be a repeat of when Hall got injured last season.

So maybe you go to one up front, as a 4-1-4-1, or a 4-5-1... well, we know how QPR fans respond to us only starting one striker, and are any of our strikers capable of playing up there by themselves? I have doubts.

So maybe you go to 3-5-2, except the two on either side of the five are actually wingers, not wing backs as now. That's incredibly attacking and leaves a defence that's already getting exposed in wide areas even more exposed in wide areas. That could work down the right, where Wszolek has shown he has the engine to get up and down and do both jobs, but we don't have anybody who can do that wide left.

In the end I think a slight switch to a 4-3-3 may help us on a number of fronts. Firstly, a back four, with a proper right back, preferably Furlong, would stop this problem we have at the moment with Baptiste getting dragged out exposing him and Lynch. By all means go back to a back three when Onuoha and Hall are both fit again, but teams have sussed us now and are going to keep visiting that spot. Secondly, it keeps the midfield three together. Thirdly, we could play any of our seven wingers either side of Smith and Sylla and have them pulling wide as wingers. Wszolek, Shodipo, Samuel and particularly Wheeler would all suit that really well IMO.

But, as I always say, I've never taken a coaching session or picked a team in my life, I know nowt.


Agree, has to be 4-3-3. Said exactly that after the Sheff Utd win. We played that system for a patch towards the end of that game and looked so much more potent going forward, there were options out wide.

3-5-2 has never clicked and I don't think we have the personnel or coach to make it fluid. When we win, we win through grit and perspiration, we never win based on the quality of our possession football.

It has to change to 4-3-3.

It's ludicrous to have bought so many wingers and have two strikers who are imperious in the air and then play a system that totally excludes both those players and those attributes.

3-5-2 is in vogue because Chelsea won the league with it, after years of no one touching it, and now suddenly average Championship teams and managers (yes I mean us and Ollie) are trying to look all sophisticated by using it. It. doesn't. work.

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Our system and lack of width on 10:06 - Nov 20 with 1251 viewsstevec

The thing is when Furlong was playing right back practically every opposition targeted him too.

Not opposed to 4-3-3 but a proper right back must be out there somewhere and hardly going to break the bank.

I am tiring of watching players played out of position though, it's usually the default option to acquiring a spot of well paid gardening leave and I would hope that is not where this is going.
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Our system and lack of width on 10:13 - Nov 20 with 1240 viewsWestbourneR

Our system and lack of width on 10:06 - Nov 20 by stevec

The thing is when Furlong was playing right back practically every opposition targeted him too.

Not opposed to 4-3-3 but a proper right back must be out there somewhere and hardly going to break the bank.

I am tiring of watching players played out of position though, it's usually the default option to acquiring a spot of well paid gardening leave and I would hope that is not where this is going.


I think Holloway is a great motivator but a muddled mind. Tactically he's not the best.

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Our system and lack of width on 10:27 - Nov 20 with 1218 viewsdaveB

Our system and lack of width on 10:13 - Nov 20 by WestbourneR

I think Holloway is a great motivator but a muddled mind. Tactically he's not the best.


He's not the worst either though, he's come up with plans at times this season and last which have won us games.
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Our system and lack of width on 10:40 - Nov 20 with 1200 viewsWestbourneR

Our system and lack of width on 10:27 - Nov 20 by daveB

He's not the worst either though, he's come up with plans at times this season and last which have won us games.


True but I'd say it's a rarity. Away at Reading last year was one of the few times I felt we tactically out-classed an opponent.

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Our system and lack of width on 11:06 - Nov 20 with 1174 viewssimmo

"3-5-2 is in vogue because Chelsea won the league with it, after years of no one touching it, and now suddenly average Championship teams and managers (yes I mean us and Ollie) are trying to look all sophisticated by using it. It. doesn't. work."

Chelsea played 3-4-3 actually, which worked because Kante and very tactically flexible CB's.

4-3-3 is our best formation for the players we have, the problem Ollie has is that Sylla is the best option for 1 up top and he can't/doesn't press a back line hard enough when on his own and that's how he likes his forwards to play. It's still what we should go for though.

ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead

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Our system and lack of width on 11:20 - Nov 20 with 1155 viewsPlanetHonneywood

Old adage, that still has mileage in the Championship....


'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk Nous sommes L’occitane Rs!
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Our system and lack of width on 11:42 - Nov 20 with 1141 viewsWestbourneR

Our system and lack of width on 11:06 - Nov 20 by simmo

"3-5-2 is in vogue because Chelsea won the league with it, after years of no one touching it, and now suddenly average Championship teams and managers (yes I mean us and Ollie) are trying to look all sophisticated by using it. It. doesn't. work."

Chelsea played 3-4-3 actually, which worked because Kante and very tactically flexible CB's.

4-3-3 is our best formation for the players we have, the problem Ollie has is that Sylla is the best option for 1 up top and he can't/doesn't press a back line hard enough when on his own and that's how he likes his forwards to play. It's still what we should go for though.


Fine - my point was about 3 at the back.

Re Sylla. I just don't buy it that a forward's ability to press is a primary concern - it's his goal scoring and hold up play. He's by far the best we've got in both those departments.

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Our system and lack of width on 11:48 - Nov 20 with 1132 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Funny what sticks to a manager. It seems to be almost taken as fact now that Ollie is tactically poor. I don't think he's any worse tactically than Hasslebaink or Ramsey, and I don't look at our oppo every match and think that their manager is tactically better than ours - some are, some aren't. We're getting at right-back or right wingback because we don't have one who plays at the level we need. Any oppo manager can see that.

Fnnily enough, the area where I think Holloway could do with improving is not tactics but team selection. I realise that as fans we can't know the reason for changes from game to game (some are private, and rightly so) but there does seem to be a lot of them and I can't help thinking that continuity would help results.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Our system and lack of width on 13:56 - Nov 20 with 1068 viewsHunterhoop

Our system and lack of width on 17:50 - Nov 19 by Northernr

I'm on the same page as Hunter with this. Love wingers, love width, love crosses into the box. It's very frustrating we don't do that considering we actually have seven wingers on our books, including Wszolek who has shown himself capable of good service from wide, and two of our four strikers are at their best when attacking crosses - Smith, Sylla.

The problem I guess comes with the midfield three. They are our best players, they are playing well, the team selection basically starts with those three and once you've decided that it starts to limit your options. I think we'd all agree that a 4-4-2 with Luongo or Freeman on the wing would be wrong, a waste of them, and would move Scowen away from his protectionist role in front of the back four - do that at your peril IMO, it would be a repeat of when Hall got injured last season.

So maybe you go to one up front, as a 4-1-4-1, or a 4-5-1... well, we know how QPR fans respond to us only starting one striker, and are any of our strikers capable of playing up there by themselves? I have doubts.

So maybe you go to 3-5-2, except the two on either side of the five are actually wingers, not wing backs as now. That's incredibly attacking and leaves a defence that's already getting exposed in wide areas even more exposed in wide areas. That could work down the right, where Wszolek has shown he has the engine to get up and down and do both jobs, but we don't have anybody who can do that wide left.

In the end I think a slight switch to a 4-3-3 may help us on a number of fronts. Firstly, a back four, with a proper right back, preferably Furlong, would stop this problem we have at the moment with Baptiste getting dragged out exposing him and Lynch. By all means go back to a back three when Onuoha and Hall are both fit again, but teams have sussed us now and are going to keep visiting that spot. Secondly, it keeps the midfield three together. Thirdly, we could play any of our seven wingers either side of Smith and Sylla and have them pulling wide as wingers. Wszolek, Shodipo, Samuel and particularly Wheeler would all suit that really well IMO.

But, as I always say, I've never taken a coaching session or picked a team in my life, I know nowt.


Excellent post, Clive. Exactly as I see it...both in terms of the problem and alternatives.

I've always said it: 352 works IF you have the balls to play wingers at wing back, not full backs. You have to have an attacking threat down the wing unless you have excellent, nippy forwards, which we don't.

If we had Perch Onouha and Robinson as the back 3 with Scowen or Hall sitting in front, I think we'd be able to play two wingers at wing back. We'd have two wide centre halves who know how to play when pulled wide, and Onouha's pace would mean he could get across and support if they got burnt. With Lynch being a moron in terms of reading the game and Baptiste being so slow, we're too easy to play against.

However, we're a way off having Perch, Hall and Onouha fit, so we need to do something different for now. I'd go 4-1-2-3.

Smithies
Furlong Baptiste Robinson Bidwell
Scowen
Luongo Freeman
Wszolek Sylla A N OTHER

On the left, you could try any of Samuel, Wheeler, Shodipo, Lua Lua, Smyth. I'd be vary about trying Yeni, Washington or Mackie there as I don't think they're wingers.

If you were desperate to keep 2 up top, then Freeman could play left midfield, tucked in a bit, in a 442.
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