| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 41573 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:54 - Dec 13 with 1535 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:40 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
Strangely, 16 million voted to stay and whilst being pissed off, I haven't seen them causing absolute carnage or anarchy because they didn't get their way. |
Whilst that is true that 16 million lost the vote so should do what I would have done had leave lost which is accept the result, everyone knows that a small percentage of the leave vote was made up of right wingers who voted purely on immigration who won’t just sit back and say “ oh well we won but we aren’t getting what we want”. You’d be a fool to think otherwise, I’m pretty much resigned deep down that the result will be reversed, I don’t like it and as I said the only protest I will be partaking is is at the ballot box where I wouldn’t bother attending anymore, it will be a certain fact that any march organised to protest no matter how much it’s advertised as a peaceful protest it will end up as a riot. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:11 - Dec 13 with 1501 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:54 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
Whilst that is true that 16 million lost the vote so should do what I would have done had leave lost which is accept the result, everyone knows that a small percentage of the leave vote was made up of right wingers who voted purely on immigration who won’t just sit back and say “ oh well we won but we aren’t getting what we want”. You’d be a fool to think otherwise, I’m pretty much resigned deep down that the result will be reversed, I don’t like it and as I said the only protest I will be partaking is is at the ballot box where I wouldn’t bother attending anymore, it will be a certain fact that any march organised to protest no matter how much it’s advertised as a peaceful protest it will end up as a riot. |
We shouldn't live our lives in fear of extremists, if the public change their mind when faced with fuller information then they should accept the result. Let's be clear, if any of the leave supporting MPs had a clue what they were doing and had a vision for brexit then the door for a second vote wouldn't be wide open like it is at the moment. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:15 - Dec 13 with 1492 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:11 - Dec 13 by QPR_Jim |
We shouldn't live our lives in fear of extremists, if the public change their mind when faced with fuller information then they should accept the result. Let's be clear, if any of the leave supporting MPs had a clue what they were doing and had a vision for brexit then the door for a second vote wouldn't be wide open like it is at the moment. |
Do you think someone who doesn’t like someone because of the colour of their skin or nationality is going to look or understand anything rationally? | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:22 - Dec 13 with 1486 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:54 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
Whilst that is true that 16 million lost the vote so should do what I would have done had leave lost which is accept the result, everyone knows that a small percentage of the leave vote was made up of right wingers who voted purely on immigration who won’t just sit back and say “ oh well we won but we aren’t getting what we want”. You’d be a fool to think otherwise, I’m pretty much resigned deep down that the result will be reversed, I don’t like it and as I said the only protest I will be partaking is is at the ballot box where I wouldn’t bother attending anymore, it will be a certain fact that any march organised to protest no matter how much it’s advertised as a peaceful protest it will end up as a riot. |
As was previously mentioned, there was also certainly an element of anti-austerity protest vote for Leave too, which had nothing to do with the subject matter being voted upon. Those two groups combined probably form the winning margin whose "will" is apparently being served.
In my opinion, we'll have a divide that will last generations no matter whether we leave or stay. You can't ignore 16 or 17 million peoples views on such a polarised subject without consequences.
I'm pretty sure Tory and Labour party politics is probably done too. Neither party have any credibility any more. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 21:28]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:27 - Dec 13 with 1473 views | zicoshoops |
Anyway..............
What's going on?
We should be told
Sort it out |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:31 - Dec 13 with 1462 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
The problem is, those that want another vote, think it will solve everything as if by some magic, everyone will be happy to remain or leave, but the pandora's box has lost it lit.
We have seen that the remoaners just won't shut up but will expect the leavers to if a remain vote succeeded.
Truth is and you are right here Loftboy remoaners are underestimating how angry a large % of leave voters are going to be.
Middle-class London socialists never did understand the rest of the country, why they were so shocked to lose the referendum, they did not understand then and still don't.
These politicians that think they are protecting their job will be the first for the chopping block and that's why you should vote in spite of your feeling.
None of these SOB will get my vote, I'll just vote for the local road sweeper. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 21:36]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:32 - Dec 13 with 1462 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:15 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
Do you think someone who doesn’t like someone because of the colour of their skin or nationality is going to look or understand anything rationally? |
When you put it like that, no. But I'd say a very limited number of leave voters are like that, the majority are our family and friends and would understand that there are valid reasons for a second vote. My point would still be that we shouldn't pander to the few because they are willing to threaten violence or disorder.
A second leave vote with more facts would also clear up any lingering arguements about not knowing what leave meant and put to bed the lies and buses arguements about the first vote, so it could have an up side for leave. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:37 - Dec 13 with 1453 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:32 - Dec 13 by QPR_Jim |
When you put it like that, no. But I'd say a very limited number of leave voters are like that, the majority are our family and friends and would understand that there are valid reasons for a second vote. My point would still be that we shouldn't pander to the few because they are willing to threaten violence or disorder.
A second leave vote with more facts would also clear up any lingering arguements about not knowing what leave meant and put to bed the lies and buses arguements about the first vote, so it could have an up side for leave. |
If we have a second vote and the outcome was the same then what?
The EU say there’s no more wiggle room and it will be another X amount of months in limbo. I for one as stated previously would vote to leave the EU no matter what is written on a bus or a pamphlet, I had made my mind up long before the referendum was even announced.
I don’t think anyone or any MP really has a solution to what’s going to happen whether we stay or leave. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:42 - Dec 13 with 1437 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Anyone who thinks 17.5M people voted to leave just on a few promises is daft
100% of those I know that voted leave no longer wanted to be governed by the unelected EU, did not want to be part of a federal state. and they all feel the same today. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:43 - Dec 13 with 1431 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Loftboy +1 [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 21:43]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:44 - Dec 13 with 1427 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:37 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
If we have a second vote and the outcome was the same then what?
The EU say there’s no more wiggle room and it will be another X amount of months in limbo. I for one as stated previously would vote to leave the EU no matter what is written on a bus or a pamphlet, I had made my mind up long before the referendum was even announced.
I don’t think anyone or any MP really has a solution to what’s going to happen whether we stay or leave. |
As I said earlier, nothing is going to make the divisions go away, but a second Referendum which was binding, and asked:
1. Stay or Leave? and
2 If Leave, May Deal or No Deal?
would at least legitimise the action to be taken by Government. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:48 - Dec 13 with 1413 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:42 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Anyone who thinks 17.5M people voted to leave just on a few promises is daft
100% of those I know that voted leave no longer wanted to be governed by the unelected EU, did not want to be part of a federal state. and they all feel the same today. |
Thing is, 17.5million isn't the relevant figure though, is it? The relevant figure is the less than 1.3million difference between the two sets of voters. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:53 - Dec 13 with 1398 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:48 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
Thing is, 17.5million isn't the relevant figure though, is it? The relevant figure is the less than 1.3million difference between the two sets of voters. |
It IS the relevant figure as that's the majority.
If you lose a game 3-2, you have still lost. the margin has no relevance. asking for a replay it a joke. or should we have best of 3/5/7.... [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 21:56]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:55 - Dec 13 with 1394 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:37 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
If we have a second vote and the outcome was the same then what?
The EU say there’s no more wiggle room and it will be another X amount of months in limbo. I for one as stated previously would vote to leave the EU no matter what is written on a bus or a pamphlet, I had made my mind up long before the referendum was even announced.
I don’t think anyone or any MP really has a solution to what’s going to happen whether we stay or leave. |
I think a lot more people would unify behind leave. Within a week of the vote people were saying they regretted voting leave and nobody really admits to being convinced by a bus but some people must be swayed by bs like that otherwise why would they bother? That's before you get into Arron Banks' funding and the use of social media adverts targeted at people with content that can't be verified or queried. As you say none of that would have swayed you, fair enough and it's easy for people who wanted leave to dismiss concerns about these things as just remoaners complaining etc but I see it as a valid concern and one that undermines our democracy. If another vote were to be had which had the same answer but none of the rest then I and many others would support it. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:56 - Dec 13 with 1391 views | Maggsinho |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:44 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
As I said earlier, nothing is going to make the divisions go away, but a second Referendum which was binding, and asked:
1. Stay or Leave? and
2 If Leave, May Deal or No Deal?
would at least legitimise the action to be taken by Government. |
Is suspect May will end up proposing a referendum with the choice of her deal or no deal. There’s no majority for no Des in parliament so it’ll get amended to a straight choice between her deal or remain. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:01 - Dec 13 with 1373 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:42 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Anyone who thinks 17.5M people voted to leave just on a few promises is daft
100% of those I know that voted leave no longer wanted to be governed by the unelected EU, did not want to be part of a federal state. and they all feel the same today. |
If nobody's changed their minds then there's nothing to worry about having a second vote, it would only strengthen your position and show that the few promises (lies) and the rest of the conflicts over the first referendum didn't affect the outcome and anyone who thinks there were issues with the first referendum would be silenced. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:04 - Dec 13 with 1364 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:01 - Dec 13 by QPR_Jim |
If nobody's changed their minds then there's nothing to worry about having a second vote, it would only strengthen your position and show that the few promises (lies) and the rest of the conflicts over the first referendum didn't affect the outcome and anyone who thinks there were issues with the first referendum would be silenced. |
Unless there was say a 60/40 to whatever side it would solve nothing. whoever lost would want another vote. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:05 - Dec 13 with 1364 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:53 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
It IS the relevant figure as that's the majority.
If you lose a game 3-2, you have still lost. the margin has no relevance. asking for a replay it a joke. or should we have best of 3/5/7.... [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 21:56]
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No, the relevant figure is the difference between those who voted Leave and those who voted Remain.
It is quite reasonable to suggest that many of those who voted Leave were not taken in by various promises or claims by the Leave campaigners, but it really isn't reasonable to suggest that none of them were. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for a campaign would there?
The question then becomes, how many were taken in? How many voted to Leave because they simply don't like foreigners? How many voted Leave as an anti-austerity protest? Because if those three sets of Leave voters add up to more than 1.3million, that's who we are going through all this to satisfy.
And, for perhaps the fourth or fifth time in this thread, I have said any second Referendum MUST BE BINDING. Therefore no more referendums on the subject. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:09]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:13 - Dec 13 with 1342 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:05 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
No, the relevant figure is the difference between those who voted Leave and those who voted Remain.
It is quite reasonable to suggest that many of those who voted Leave were not taken in by various promises or claims by the Leave campaigners, but it really isn't reasonable to suggest that none of them were. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for a campaign would there?
The question then becomes, how many were taken in? How many voted to Leave because they simply don't like foreigners? How many voted Leave as an anti-austerity protest? Because if those three sets of Leave voters add up to more than 1.3million, that's who we are going through all this to satisfy.
And, for perhaps the fourth or fifth time in this thread, I have said any second Referendum MUST BE BINDING. Therefore no more referendums on the subject. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:09]
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You seem to think there would be that swing of the vote without actually knowing
Like I said I know of no one that has changed their mind, the issue is still the same, being governed by an unelected EU and not wanting to be in a federal state, why would they change their mind on that. they won't.
Binding, on what % of the vote ? the same ?
Every MP voted for the referendum, ever MP voted to respect and uphold the result
90% have so far have broken that in trying to stop us leaving one way or other.
Binding LOL [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:22]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:22 - Dec 13 with 1326 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:13 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
You seem to think there would be that swing of the vote without actually knowing
Like I said I know of no one that has changed their mind, the issue is still the same, being governed by an unelected EU and not wanting to be in a federal state, why would they change their mind on that. they won't.
Binding, on what % of the vote ? the same ?
Every MP voted for the referendum, ever MP voted to respect and uphold the result
90% have so far have broken that in trying to stop us leaving one way or other.
Binding LOL [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:22]
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I haven't said that there would be any swing, I haven't made any statement at all about what the result of a second Referendum might be.
To be clear, you and the people you know have perfectly valid reasons for wishing to Leave, but I don't think you can claim that they represent the thinking of everyone who voted Leave, unless you have 17.5million friends. In which case you are probably Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.
Additionally, over 16 million people who were registered to vote in the first Referendum did not vote. I'd wager quite a few bob the turnout in a second Referendum would be significantly higher. How many people who wanted to Leave do you imagine would NOT have taken the opportunity to vote?
And to answer your edit, legally binding means that the Government MUST undertake whatever the result of the has decided. It would be up to the Government to determine what the terms of the Referendum would be, but they would have to do that as part of the terms and conditions of the Referendum. They'd have to be pretty brave to insist on anything other than a simple majority.
The first Referendum was not legally binding, like most Referendums it was "advisory", meaning the Government was under no obligation legal or otherwise to do anything about it if they so wished. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:30]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:31 - Dec 13 with 1305 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:22 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
I haven't said that there would be any swing, I haven't made any statement at all about what the result of a second Referendum might be.
To be clear, you and the people you know have perfectly valid reasons for wishing to Leave, but I don't think you can claim that they represent the thinking of everyone who voted Leave, unless you have 17.5million friends. In which case you are probably Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.
Additionally, over 16 million people who were registered to vote in the first Referendum did not vote. I'd wager quite a few bob the turnout in a second Referendum would be significantly higher. How many people who wanted to Leave do you imagine would NOT have taken the opportunity to vote?
And to answer your edit, legally binding means that the Government MUST undertake whatever the result of the has decided. It would be up to the Government to determine what the terms of the Referendum would be, but they would have to do that as part of the terms and conditions of the Referendum. They'd have to be pretty brave to insist on anything other than a simple majority.
The first Referendum was not legally binding, like most Referendums it was "advisory", meaning the Government was under no obligation legal or otherwise to do anything about it if they so wished. [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:30]
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My real point is another vote will solve nothing if again it is close.
Mp's have made it clear, as I said above, that they don't respect anything when they do not stand by their commitment to uphold the referendum result
Binding will mean nothing to those that lose. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:35 - Dec 13 with 1297 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:31 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
My real point is another vote will solve nothing if again it is close.
Mp's have made it clear, as I said above, that they don't respect anything when they do not stand by their commitment to uphold the referendum result
Binding will mean nothing to those that lose. |
A legally binding Referendum would solve the political impasse in that it would result definitely in May Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
As I've said elsewhere, it won't solve the social divide between Leavers and Remainers and I don't think anything will resolve that for decades, short of the Government saying "Sorry for putting you through all this, here's a million quid each by way of an apology" | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:43 - Dec 13 with 1275 views | Stanisgod |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:40 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
Strangely, 16 million voted to stay and whilst being pissed off, I haven't seen them causing absolute carnage or anarchy because they didn't get their way. |
No just constant whingeing 😠|  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:44 - Dec 13 with 1270 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:35 - Dec 13 by WatfordR |
A legally binding Referendum would solve the political impasse in that it would result definitely in May Deal, No Deal or No Brexit.
As I've said elsewhere, it won't solve the social divide between Leavers and Remainers and I don't think anything will resolve that for decades, short of the Government saying "Sorry for putting you through all this, here's a million quid each by way of an apology" |
This "legally binding" "advisory" is a remoanes bullshit argument sprouted the day after the referendum, no one asked if it was binding before they voted, yet every mp voted for and to uphold the result, I think that should be binding, but lets just pretend they (mp's) were misled on what they voted for lol [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:47]
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:44 - Dec 13 with 1217 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:44 - Dec 13 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
This "legally binding" "advisory" is a remoanes bullshit argument sprouted the day after the referendum, no one asked if it was binding before they voted, yet every mp voted for and to uphold the result, I think that should be binding, but lets just pretend they (mp's) were misled on what they voted for lol [Post edited 13 Dec 2018 22:47]
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Right, I've an early start tomorrow, so this is my last post on the subject tonight.
Firstly 2T2B, I'm happy to have a discussion on this, but please, enough of the Remoan stuff, it makes you seem a bit childish.
Second, the Referendum was "advisory", there's plenty of info on google, do some research. If you didn't know what you were entitled to get from your vote and participation in that Referendum, it's your fault and no one else's.
We are in this mess because people supposedly more politically astute than you or I allowed a situation to occur for which they had no plan and over which they now have virtually no control. No matter whether you, I or anyone else likes how it plays out, it has got to be sorted, and it is going to boil down to taking one of three options.
A second, legally binding Referendum is one way it will definitely be sorted. Government taking a solution that won't be popular with at least half the country is another.
I'm not going to say I don't care which decision they take because I believe to the core of my soul that leaving the EU will irreparably damage the UK economy, and that will impact me and more importantly my kids. I can live with one half of the country hating the other, I would rather however that I don't also have to watch almost all of us disappear down the financial plughole as well.
Th-th-th-that's all folks  | | | |
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