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Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus!
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:54 - Dec 14 with 1782 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 09:53 - Dec 14 by hubble
Firstly, the European commission is not elected. Here's an apposite quote from the Economist that nails the problem with how the EU functions:
"Eurosceptics have a valid case against the EU, but not because its leaders are “unelected bureaucrats”. Rather, its bureaucrats are too insulated from democracy, and its democracy is not functioning well enough without a common demos to make it work."
This is a huge problem that is not going away.
Secondly: the EU is tantamount to a federal state.
From wikipedia on the Federalisation of the European Union.
"Since the 1950s, European integration has seen the development of a supranational system of governance, as its institutions move further from the concept of simple intergovernmentalism and more towards a federalised system. However, with the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, new intergovernmental elements have been introduced alongside the more federal systems, making it more difficult to define the European Union (the EU). The European Union, which operates through a hybrid system of intergovernmentalism and supranationalism, is not officially a federation — though various academic observers regard it as having the characteristics of a federal system."
No, the European commission is not elected. Neither is our civil service, nor House of Lords, nor head of state.
The commission can only propose legislation that then has to be ratified by the directly elected parliament and the council, which is made up of the elected governments of the member states.
The US is a federal state. The EU is not - as indeed your wiki quote appears to say!
The Labour Party’s position is to remain. But the vast majority of their seats are in ‘leave’ heartlands. If we end up remaining, Labour will be the big losers in the long term.
I voted to leave the European Union, not to half leave, half stay.
I’ve never ever voted Conservative, and I never will. But I won’t vote Labour either.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:30 - Dec 14 with 1695 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:19 - Dec 14 by Snipper
The Labour Party’s position is to remain. But the vast majority of their seats are in ‘leave’ heartlands. If we end up remaining, Labour will be the big losers in the long term.
I voted to leave the European Union, not to half leave, half stay.
I’ve never ever voted Conservative, and I never will. But I won’t vote Labour either.
Labour's position isn't remain
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:41 - Dec 14 with 1654 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:19 - Dec 14 by Snipper
The Labour Party’s position is to remain. But the vast majority of their seats are in ‘leave’ heartlands. If we end up remaining, Labour will be the big losers in the long term.
I voted to leave the European Union, not to half leave, half stay.
I’ve never ever voted Conservative, and I never will. But I won’t vote Labour either.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:46 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
But it is to remain in a customs union aswell as staying aligned to the single market. So how is that leaving the EU ?
Therein lies the problem: If we can't agree even now on what counts as in or out, it's not surprising people are questioning the validity of the first referendum and asking for a second one with hopefully clearer definitions and options.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:53 - Dec 14 with 1601 views
A second referendum could easily have a different outcome without any single voter changing their mind. Since 2016 many older, largely leave voters will have passed away, at the same many teens, largely remain voters will have become 18. IThis difference in the demographic could be crucial to the result.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:56 - Dec 14 with 1584 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:50 - Dec 14 by Cliff
Therein lies the problem: If we can't agree even now on what counts as in or out, it's not surprising people are questioning the validity of the first referendum and asking for a second one with hopefully clearer definitions and options.
We had clear definitions first time round regarding leaving the CU, SM and the end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That came from both sides of the debate. Leave ment leave that`s what was clear to at least all those i know who voted the same way. The muddying of the waters has come from one side only, the losers side.
[Post edited 14 Dec 2018 15:05]
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:58 - Dec 14 with 1577 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:56 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
We had clear definitions first time round regarding leaving the CU, SM and the end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That came from both sides of the debate. Leave ment leave that`s what was clear to at least all those i know who voted the same way. The muddying of the waters has come from one side only, the losers side.
[Post edited 14 Dec 2018 15:05]
This
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:55 - Dec 14 by easthertsr
A second referendum could easily have a different outcome without any single voter changing their mind. Since 2016 many older, largely leave voters will have passed away, at the same many teens, largely remain voters will have become 18. IThis difference in the demographic could be crucial to the result.
Given their average age, it's surprising so many of them are planning to riot if they don't get their way.
"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:55 - Dec 14 by easthertsr
A second referendum could easily have a different outcome without any single voter changing their mind. Since 2016 many older, largely leave voters will have passed away, at the same many teens, largely remain voters will have become 18. IThis difference in the demographic could be crucial to the result.
Yeah ignore those old bastards that gave everything to this country all thier lives and knew when we joined in 1975 that what it was then to what it is today gave them cause to vote leave. Instead listen to an 18 year old who would happly paint over war memorial or draw up a list of PC bollocks to stop a comedian upset their fragile state of mind.
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:04 - Dec 14 with 1550 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:03 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
Yeah ignore those old bastards that gave everything to this country all thier lives and knew when we joined in 1975 that what it was then to what it is today gave them cause to vote leave. Instead listen to an 18 year old who would happly paint over war memorial or draw up a list of PC bollocks to stop a comedian upset their fragile state of mind.
I think you may be over generalising here.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:08 - Dec 14 with 1533 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:56 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
We had clear definitions first time round regarding leaving the CU, SM and the end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That came from both sides of the debate. Leave ment leave that`s what was clear to at least all those i know who voted the same way. The muddying of the waters has come from one side only, the losers side.
[Post edited 14 Dec 2018 15:05]
I'm not sure you and Loftboy being clear in your heads counts as proof that the definitions were clear in themselves. The fact that neither political party, or indeed the posters on this thread, seem to to be able to agree what was leaving actually meant I don't think you can justify your claim of clear definitions.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:10 - Dec 14 with 1519 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:08 - Dec 14 by Cliff
I'm not sure you and Loftboy being clear in your heads counts as proof that the definitions were clear in themselves. The fact that neither political party, or indeed the posters on this thread, seem to to be able to agree what was leaving actually meant I don't think you can justify your claim of clear definitions.
Well our own PM ha said “leave means leave” on numerous occasions
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:08 - Dec 14 by Cliff
I'm not sure you and Loftboy being clear in your heads counts as proof that the definitions were clear in themselves. The fact that neither political party, or indeed the posters on this thread, seem to to be able to agree what was leaving actually meant I don't think you can justify your claim of clear definitions.
I clearly remember a UKIP rep in an interview prior to the referendum stating 'nobody is saying we have to leave the single market'...
The ballot paper simply stated leave or remain - sadly, the serious debate got going after the result.
Found it (I think!):
Edit: not UKIP, a Leave spokesperson.
[Post edited 14 Dec 2018 15:24]
"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:50 - Dec 14 by Cliff
Therein lies the problem: If we can't agree even now on what counts as in or out, it's not surprising people are questioning the validity of the first referendum and asking for a second one with hopefully clearer definitions and options.
A second referendum with hopefully clearer definitions and options you say? Well I bet someone somewhere knows what those definitions and options are but clearly no British politician does nor do they seem to have the intelligence or wit to know. That person must be found, but where to find them before 29th March!
There aint half been some clever bastards.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:32 - Dec 14 with 1453 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:03 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
Yeah ignore those old bastards that gave everything to this country all thier lives and knew when we joined in 1975 that what it was then to what it is today gave them cause to vote leave. Instead listen to an 18 year old who would happly paint over war memorial or draw up a list of PC bollocks to stop a comedian upset their fragile state of mind.
You are very difficult to take seriously mate, and I'm probably not far from your point of view.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:39 - Dec 14 with 1434 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:03 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
Yeah ignore those old bastards that gave everything to this country all thier lives and knew when we joined in 1975 that what it was then to what it is today gave them cause to vote leave. Instead listen to an 18 year old who would happly paint over war memorial or draw up a list of PC bollocks to stop a comedian upset their fragile state of mind.
Fragile state of mind sounds about right. But glad you didn't lose. Hopefully you won something nice.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:55 - Dec 14 with 1386 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:03 - Dec 14 by Sharpy36
Yeah ignore those old bastards that gave everything to this country all thier lives and knew when we joined in 1975 that what it was then to what it is today gave them cause to vote leave. Instead listen to an 18 year old who would happly paint over war memorial or draw up a list of PC bollocks to stop a comedian upset their fragile state of mind.
Well, my old bastard of a father, now 87, who lived through the blitz (and entire war as he was never evacuated) as a schoolboy not only voted to remain, but told me that people of his age shouldn't have been allowed to vote as they will all be dead soon. I should add that we share very little politically.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:32 - Dec 14 by BazzaInTheLoft
You are very difficult to take seriously mate, and I'm probably not far from your point of view.
What i have been hearing and reading about recently regarding this whole argument that a lot of Oldies having died off since 2016 has really got under my skin, and imo those who are pushing that narrative are doing the second referendum cause more harm than good. As for taking me serious, do so when it comes to Brexit as i would suggest this whole situation has got people more in tune with politics than ever before, and for me that`s a good thing, although saying that, it`s all starting to turn the other way now. It`s a bloody mess.
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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