| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 41512 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:49 - Dec 12 with 2300 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 10:57 - Dec 12 by londonscottish |
True.
Like Konk I was an unenthusiastic Remainer but David Davis is making a good point today; there's still time to set out a WTO option (wrongly called the "no deal" option).
For some reason May discarded this option right at the beginning and also accepted the way that EU set out the whole negotiations.
Makes sense to me to have a serious look at the WTO version.
At the very least it might make Brussels sit up and take notice and it might also dig May/whoever out of the current hole they're in. [Post edited 12 Dec 2018 10:59]
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Has everyone accepted that WTO rules demand a hard border in Ireland? I wish pols would stop obfuscating, you either stay in the European free trade area / customs union or you renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement. Neither is impossible, but that's your choice. Everything else is Harry Potter. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:53 - Dec 12 with 2291 views | FDC |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:43 - Dec 12 by PinnerPaul |
I don't think there is a parliamentary majority for a no deal Brexit.
Problem is there isn't a commons majority for remain, 2nd referendum or the 'May Brexit Plan' either - hence the mess and the futility of a tory leadership contest.
At some stage parliament HAS to decide what its going to do! |
This. Also, re the post above about May being replaced by a hardline Brexiteer, I don't think there's a majority among the Tories for that either.
I suspect May will win the vote tonight, but it won't be emphatic. She'll announce her intention to leave after March. This will probably strengthen her position in the short-term, as I can't see Labour bringing a motion of no confidence in the government should she hold on tonight. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:03 - Dec 12 with 2265 views | daveB |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:31 - Dec 12 by stevec |
Before you read this article keep in mind the words... 'Left Wing Think Tank' |
So anything you don't agree with is left wing or some kind of conspiracy |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:08 - Dec 12 with 2251 views | hopphoops |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:03 - Dec 12 by daveB |
So anything you don't agree with is left wing or some kind of conspiracy |
Same old lefties, always thinking. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:22 - Dec 12 with 2206 views | londonscottish |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:49 - Dec 12 by hopphoops |
Has everyone accepted that WTO rules demand a hard border in Ireland? I wish pols would stop obfuscating, you either stay in the European free trade area / customs union or you renegotiate the Good Friday Agreement. Neither is impossible, but that's your choice. Everything else is Harry Potter. |
Oh good point. I'd forgotten that that doesn't solve the Irish Border problem.
As you were. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:49 - Dec 12 with 2150 views | Mytch_QPR |
The bad news for stevec and any other hard line loonies who believe financial suicide is a good plan is that it looks as though the Tories are going to get behind May tonight and that will see off the likes of Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc.
I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but this is no time to muck about with changing PM or trying to force an election.
BoJo's performance in parliament a few days back was embarrassing - he waffled away whilst averting any questions from MPs about his alternative plan. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:12 - Dec 12 with 2081 views | Superhoop83 |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:49 - Dec 12 by Mytch_QPR |
The bad news for stevec and any other hard line loonies who believe financial suicide is a good plan is that it looks as though the Tories are going to get behind May tonight and that will see off the likes of Johnson, Rees-Mogg etc.
I'm no fan of May or the Conservatives but this is no time to muck about with changing PM or trying to force an election.
BoJo's performance in parliament a few days back was embarrassing - he waffled away whilst averting any questions from MPs about his alternative plan. |
Spot on.
It appears that the swivel eyed loons have shot their bolt and for the first time ever I'm on May's side. I never thought I'd type those words!
As for Boris, how is he even an MP let alone a potential PM? |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:31 - Dec 12 with 2041 views | PinnerPaul |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:12 - Dec 12 by Superhoop83 |
Spot on.
It appears that the swivel eyed loons have shot their bolt and for the first time ever I'm on May's side. I never thought I'd type those words!
As for Boris, how is he even an MP let alone a potential PM? |
Agree absolutely, but still no further forward Brexitwise tomorrow morning even if she does win are we? |  | | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:32 - Dec 12 with 2036 views | Lblock |
I did promise myself not to comment on political threads here..... people get very sensitive and entrenched. However........
I'm alongside SteveC here. The biggest mistake made was to allow the monopoly that is crumbling in the EU to see we were weak and not really serious about breaking free; I believe we immediately looked for a conciliatory position.
May is part of the issue - she is someone who doesn't want to reach the Brexit destination who is driving the brexit train. I never had confidence we'd get there with her but in fairness she's on a hiding to nothing now.
From what I've seen, every EU member state, except for Ireland, export more to the UK than they import from us. So where's the trade issue? My adage in negotiations is "if they need me more than I need them, then I'm in the stronger position - I call the shots". So with a strong and bolshie stance I'd be more than confident in getting what I wanted there.
Freedom of movement? No problem whatsoever - just step back 15 to 20 years ago and no big issue there for me.
My completely laissez faire position is that we can fight fire with more fire on the transference of businesses to EU in terms of "base" by offering really attractive tax breaks etc. They'll be queuing up at Visa Granting Stations quicker than you can say "up yours Junckers" to move even MORE of their operations and staff over here!!!! Also, people may not have heard of this thing called the world wide web but it means service industries can run from anywhere really.
So the chaos of border restrictions... an issue. Talk of blockades and all that.... so this is the organisation people want to be a part of is it? You do what we want or we'll bully you into submission? The EU and Merkel's experimental forces are running scared -- we make a success of leaving them and that's it, end of.
I've seen the Greece problem blow up and be surpressed, I'm seeing France a tinderbox, I see social unrest in Germany and I hear that the gravy train is running out of gas in Europe generally.... I want out before the REALLY BIG problems kick off over there.
So yeah, I'm with SteveC in terms of bowling into the arena with a proper s0d ya approach..... I'd be pumping any of that money from the side of the bus that actually does exist into securing our borders as much as possible; if that means building a new one across the green isle then so be it.
But then what do I know? I'm sure someone will be along to label me an uneducated little Englander with insular and outdated views. |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:34 - Dec 12 with 2028 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:12 - Dec 12 by Superhoop83 |
Spot on.
It appears that the swivel eyed loons have shot their bolt and for the first time ever I'm on May's side. I never thought I'd type those words!
As for Boris, how is he even an MP let alone a potential PM? |
‘As for Boris, how is he even an MP let alone a potential PM?’
Same way most of the establishment come to power...
 |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:36 - Dec 12 with 2026 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:31 - Dec 12 by stevec |
Before you read this article keep in mind the words... 'Left Wing Think Tank' |
This is what the LSE (not exactly a left wing think tank) say about the author:
Dr Swati Dhingra
Assistant Professor of Economics
Swati Dhingra
Swati Dhingra is an Assistant Professor of Economics at the London School of Economics and Political Science, researching globalisation and industrial policy.
She is co-author of the recent “Life after Brexit” report published by LSE’s Centre for Economic Performance (CEP), which looked at the UK’s options outside of the EU. She is also associate editor of the Journal of International Economics.
Swati was awarded the FIW Young Economist Award and the Chair Jacquemin Award by the European Trade Study Group for her work on firms and globalisation. Swati's work has informed bodies such as the Parliamentary International Trade Committee, CBI, Treasury, Social Enterprise UK, Credit Suisse and Sunderland City Council, and has featured in the media, including outlets such as the BBC, Foreign Affairs, Financial Times, The Economist, The Times and Business Standard. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:36 - Dec 12 with 2019 views | CaptainPugwash |
Arrrrrrr...
Lookin' forward to lockin' horns wi you conscripts in the noo Eeyore Armed Forces.
Have just 'ad a noo consinement o' grape an' canister.
Bring yore sea legs me hearties!
Yo Ho! |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:42 - Dec 12 with 1992 views | Cliff |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:36 - Dec 12 by CaptainPugwash |
Arrrrrrr...
Lookin' forward to lockin' horns wi you conscripts in the noo Eeyore Armed Forces.
Have just 'ad a noo consinement o' grape an' canister.
Bring yore sea legs me hearties!
Yo Ho! |
Are you a Pastafarian by any chance? | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:43 - Dec 12 with 1981 views | Toast_R |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 10:31 - Dec 12 by traininvain |
After the referendum result those in charge should have decided what we actually want from the whole process, how it would work etc before triggering Article 50. Why the rush to start the clock running when we didn't have a clear strategy?!
The people in charge of the Leave campaign didn't think beyond the referendum result. We're negotiating from a position of weakness as it is clear that we didn't know what we wanted at the outset and we still don't seem to have a clue.
It's such a divisive issue. Chuck into the mix that we're negotiating with a time limit in place and it's a recipe for disaster. |
Seemed fairly straight forward at the time. Leave the EU and all that comes with it. Call it hard Brexit or what you will, that was what was on the table. Simple. Why are we still in and why are we begging the EU for anything? It's a shite state of affairs to be in, the rest of the world looks and must be losing any respect they had for our nation. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:46 - Dec 12 with 1970 views | robith |
The problems we face are of Cameron (and now May's making).
In his hubris he asked a binary question on a multifaceted option issue that has left everyone saying whatever they stand for is what people voted for.
Then May compounded it by calling that election and losing a majority so now there isn't a parliamentary majority for anything either. She's now stalling because she know once she puts a deal down that the Tories hate enough Labour can no confidence her and trigger a general election.
It's actually been pretty savvy of them to hold off because one thing that seems to evade the #FBPE crew is that to call a second referendum you kinda have to be the prime minister? Like Anna Soubray calling Labour cowards for not doing it, then 30 seconds later saying she'd vote against them if they did! If Labour had gone hard remain, May's deal would've passed, or she'd call another election and win the majority back (the referendum results transfers poorly constituency wise for remain).
I'm very skeptical about a second referendum. First of all, remain's argument hasn't adjusted, if anything, is worse. It's essentially "I'm smarter than you". They've doubled down and the EU is now apparently perfect and the cause of all progressive success. Which is untrue, and ineffective as it doesn't tarry with people's feelings. They'd have a sharp shock when leave wins again.
But say remain did win, they've made a rod for their own back. Their argument that it is democracy and people can change their mind cuts both ways. Say Remain wins 52-48 this time? Leave would be perfectly entitled to continue to railroad the political system for another vote. They'd need to win 65+ and they won't get that, especially as the DUP have tried to turn it into a sectarian issue in NI.
My best case is May eventually brings a deal, it's defeated, we have a GE, Corbs gets in, we leave staying in the customs union and have a government that can start to address the staggering inequality that is holding this country back and start to re-balance the economy that we'll need outside the EU |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:49 - Dec 12 with 1961 views | Northernr |
Given the way people absolutely lose their sht over things like...
1 day of strikes on South West Rail
1 morning of problems on the Central Line
1 day without a 4G signal on O2
Bin collections going from weekly to fortnightly
Sky moving a football game at short notice
RyanAir cancelling a few flights after knackering up their rota...
I really don't understand the bombastic hunger for 'no deal' and 'batten down the hatches' in the name of sticking two fingers up to the EU. It risks chaos - at borders, in supermarkets, at hospitals, at airports - for a prolonged period of time. We can't even cope with six inches of snow for a couple of days. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:50 - Dec 12 with 1959 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:32 - Dec 12 by Lblock |
I did promise myself not to comment on political threads here..... people get very sensitive and entrenched. However........
I'm alongside SteveC here. The biggest mistake made was to allow the monopoly that is crumbling in the EU to see we were weak and not really serious about breaking free; I believe we immediately looked for a conciliatory position.
May is part of the issue - she is someone who doesn't want to reach the Brexit destination who is driving the brexit train. I never had confidence we'd get there with her but in fairness she's on a hiding to nothing now.
From what I've seen, every EU member state, except for Ireland, export more to the UK than they import from us. So where's the trade issue? My adage in negotiations is "if they need me more than I need them, then I'm in the stronger position - I call the shots". So with a strong and bolshie stance I'd be more than confident in getting what I wanted there.
Freedom of movement? No problem whatsoever - just step back 15 to 20 years ago and no big issue there for me.
My completely laissez faire position is that we can fight fire with more fire on the transference of businesses to EU in terms of "base" by offering really attractive tax breaks etc. They'll be queuing up at Visa Granting Stations quicker than you can say "up yours Junckers" to move even MORE of their operations and staff over here!!!! Also, people may not have heard of this thing called the world wide web but it means service industries can run from anywhere really.
So the chaos of border restrictions... an issue. Talk of blockades and all that.... so this is the organisation people want to be a part of is it? You do what we want or we'll bully you into submission? The EU and Merkel's experimental forces are running scared -- we make a success of leaving them and that's it, end of.
I've seen the Greece problem blow up and be surpressed, I'm seeing France a tinderbox, I see social unrest in Germany and I hear that the gravy train is running out of gas in Europe generally.... I want out before the REALLY BIG problems kick off over there.
So yeah, I'm with SteveC in terms of bowling into the arena with a proper s0d ya approach..... I'd be pumping any of that money from the side of the bus that actually does exist into securing our borders as much as possible; if that means building a new one across the green isle then so be it.
But then what do I know? I'm sure someone will be along to label me an uneducated little Englander with insular and outdated views. |
Cheers Lblock just saved me ten minutes typing the same, fûck them, see how they come crawling back when it looks like they won’t be receiving the divorce payment. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:53 - Dec 12 with 1952 views | philc |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:43 - Dec 12 by Toast_R |
Seemed fairly straight forward at the time. Leave the EU and all that comes with it. Call it hard Brexit or what you will, that was what was on the table. Simple. Why are we still in and why are we begging the EU for anything? It's a shite state of affairs to be in, the rest of the world looks and must be losing any respect they had for our nation. |
Like Konk I’d describe myself as an unenthusiastic remainder and at the moment I feel that Mays agreement is the best / only solution. From reading Corbyn’s approach he has no more idea than the ERG and is living in fantasy land with them, if he thinks that can be agreed.
From reading the comments, the scale of the problem becomes apparent with the differing views, even when discussing sacking a manager I haven’t seen us this divided. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:58 - Dec 12 with 1925 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:50 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
Cheers Lblock just saved me ten minutes typing the same, fûck them, see how they come crawling back when it looks like they won’t be receiving the divorce payment. |
I think we'd be crawling back first - if we had the fcuking energy.
Look at their combined GDP v ours. Sure, they'd be affected by it but not sunk.
In any event, it won't happen as there would not be enough MPs to back a no deal option - you might get the pleasure of a second referendum, though. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:01 - Dec 12 with 1902 views | loftboy |
Ive been wanting out the EU for years Clive, if it stayed as it was originally intended a trading block I wouldn’t have a problem, but when you are getting situations when it is being dicated to us what we can or can’t do over our own parliament then I say enough is enough.
I love Europe, I love travelling to Europe and do it frequently I just don’t want to be governed by Europe.
And yes Ryanair, southwestern trains and O2 have been complete bastards to me this year. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:03 - Dec 12 with 1895 views | Northernr |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:01 - Dec 12 by loftboy |
Ive been wanting out the EU for years Clive, if it stayed as it was originally intended a trading block I wouldn’t have a problem, but when you are getting situations when it is being dicated to us what we can or can’t do over our own parliament then I say enough is enough.
I love Europe, I love travelling to Europe and do it frequently I just don’t want to be governed by Europe.
And yes Ryanair, southwestern trains and O2 have been complete bastards to me this year. |
My point is that no deal = a whole load of things being a complete bstrd to you and everybody else all at once for a long period of time. I don't get anybody who'd be in favour of that. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:07 - Dec 12 with 1877 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:03 - Dec 12 by Northernr |
My point is that no deal = a whole load of things being a complete bstrd to you and everybody else all at once for a long period of time. I don't get anybody who'd be in favour of that. |
Which is another way of saying the EU has us by the gonads is it not, so another reason to hate the organisation, glad to see you are finally agreeing with me Clive 🤪 | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:07 - Dec 12 with 1872 views | Lblock |
Did you also subscribe to the view that the UK would immediately spiral into a recession the day after the referendum IF the Leave vote won?
I also wasn’t aware the good old traditional British way of having a right old moan up was monitored so closely on here. That’s a bit of a concern and I’d better refrain from posting should my old mate Taj deliver a lukewarm curry again this Friday | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:08 - Dec 12 with 1868 views | QPR_Jim |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:32 - Dec 12 by Lblock |
I did promise myself not to comment on political threads here..... people get very sensitive and entrenched. However........
I'm alongside SteveC here. The biggest mistake made was to allow the monopoly that is crumbling in the EU to see we were weak and not really serious about breaking free; I believe we immediately looked for a conciliatory position.
May is part of the issue - she is someone who doesn't want to reach the Brexit destination who is driving the brexit train. I never had confidence we'd get there with her but in fairness she's on a hiding to nothing now.
From what I've seen, every EU member state, except for Ireland, export more to the UK than they import from us. So where's the trade issue? My adage in negotiations is "if they need me more than I need them, then I'm in the stronger position - I call the shots". So with a strong and bolshie stance I'd be more than confident in getting what I wanted there.
Freedom of movement? No problem whatsoever - just step back 15 to 20 years ago and no big issue there for me.
My completely laissez faire position is that we can fight fire with more fire on the transference of businesses to EU in terms of "base" by offering really attractive tax breaks etc. They'll be queuing up at Visa Granting Stations quicker than you can say "up yours Junckers" to move even MORE of their operations and staff over here!!!! Also, people may not have heard of this thing called the world wide web but it means service industries can run from anywhere really.
So the chaos of border restrictions... an issue. Talk of blockades and all that.... so this is the organisation people want to be a part of is it? You do what we want or we'll bully you into submission? The EU and Merkel's experimental forces are running scared -- we make a success of leaving them and that's it, end of.
I've seen the Greece problem blow up and be surpressed, I'm seeing France a tinderbox, I see social unrest in Germany and I hear that the gravy train is running out of gas in Europe generally.... I want out before the REALLY BIG problems kick off over there.
So yeah, I'm with SteveC in terms of bowling into the arena with a proper s0d ya approach..... I'd be pumping any of that money from the side of the bus that actually does exist into securing our borders as much as possible; if that means building a new one across the green isle then so be it.
But then what do I know? I'm sure someone will be along to label me an uneducated little Englander with insular and outdated views. |
I think we both know we disagree on this from our past contributions so I'll try to keep this short.
Trade deficit doesn't mean much really, a bad deal would reduce trade between nations for both sides which would mean risking 13% of our GDP compared to just 3-4% for the EU so arguably they have less to lose whether we're bolshie or not. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-trade-deficit-eu/
I also don't see that offering tax breaks to businesses is going to help much if they are re-locating due to regulatory issues associated with their business being outside the EU.
I also can't remember seeing anywhere that the EU had threatened blockades, we would need boarder checks if we were to leave without a deal or be outside the customs union but that's our choice and any issue or hold ups will be a result of lack of capacity our side, nothing to do with the EU. |  | | |
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