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Our country is fckd match thread 20:04 - Jan 15 with 202397 viewsBlackCrowe

On one side we have a spineless and rudderless government full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.

On the other side we have spineless and rudderless opposition full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.

Can someone please show us a third way beyond flipping Vince. Failing a Chuka et al third way then Disco, you're the man no to save us from jezwecan, Diane, Sneery Emily and McDonnell no?
[Post edited 15 Jan 2019 20:05]

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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:14 - May 29 with 1574 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:06 - May 29 by runningman75

I live in an east London socialist republic though in my borough the Brexit party got around 11000 votes less than Labour. Is a crazy political climate. I am left wing but still trying to work out who would be the best Tory leader.
I would support Gove if he promised to be a true QPR fan and tax Chelsea fans at an 80 per cent income tax rate.


Good start by Sajid Javid in promising 20,000 more plod on the beat.

I'd have thought that you need to push out policies that the average Tory MP/member will notice and like, and that is definitely one. If he shuts up about Brexit for a while it might not do him any harm whilst the issue sorts itself out a bit. I'd be astonished if Boris got the job but this is always hard to call.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:21 - May 29 with 1554 viewsWatford_Ranger

Our country is fckd match thread on 08:56 - May 29 by 2Thomas2Bowles

Maybe but it's true.


Depends who you consider the “media elite”. There’s no shortage of media calling for us to cut our feet off who will then blame Europe/Corbyn/immigrants when we can’t run very well.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:28 - May 29 with 1537 views2Thomas2Bowles

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:21 - May 29 by Watford_Ranger

Depends who you consider the “media elite”. There’s no shortage of media calling for us to cut our feet off who will then blame Europe/Corbyn/immigrants when we can’t run very well.


I think we can take it as a given he was referring to the BBC/ITV/C4 broadcasters.


Have you been to any dinner parties of late? as he seems to have quoted you

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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:42 - May 29 with 1509 viewsWatford_Ranger

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:28 - May 29 by 2Thomas2Bowles

I think we can take it as a given he was referring to the BBC/ITV/C4 broadcasters.


Have you been to any dinner parties of late? as he seems to have quoted you


Piers Morgan is in ITV’s prime slot demanding Brexit every week. They give a platform to Andrew Pierce FFS. Do you really not think there are some prominent media outlets championing Brexit?
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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:46 - May 29 with 1496 viewsSnipper

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:42 - May 29 by Watford_Ranger

Piers Morgan is in ITV’s prime slot demanding Brexit every week. They give a platform to Andrew Pierce FFS. Do you really not think there are some prominent media outlets championing Brexit?


Piers Morgan voted to remain.

He advocates leave now as he respects the democratic vote we had in June 2016.

He nearly always comes across as a prick, but on this, he’s right.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:48 - May 29 with 1494 viewsWatford_Ranger

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:46 - May 29 by Snipper

Piers Morgan voted to remain.

He advocates leave now as he respects the democratic vote we had in June 2016.

He nearly always comes across as a prick, but on this, he’s right.


Which doesn’t change my point that it’s ridiculous to buy into this assertion that “elites” are rabidly anti-Brexit. It’s mental people still see this as a sport where they’re picking a plucky underdog.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 09:56 - May 29 with 1482 views2Thomas2Bowles

Our country is fckd match thread on 09:42 - May 29 by Watford_Ranger

Piers Morgan is in ITV’s prime slot demanding Brexit every week. They give a platform to Andrew Pierce FFS. Do you really not think there are some prominent media outlets championing Brexit?


Never really watch ITV unless it's some drama series like Hatton garden on catchup.

I mean they had Jeremy Kyle (Remain) for years, you must be missing looking down on the scum on there.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:05 - May 29 with 1463 viewsderbyhoop

When the UK was granted an extension to Oct 31 Donald Tusk asked us not to waste the time.
Since then, the PM has said she will step down and the Withdrawal Bill has been shelved. The Tory party are involved in a glorified beauty (ugly?) contest for a new leader, most of whom seem determined to promote a "no deal" Brexit. I prefer crash out, and will explain why.
Crash out means all treaties shall cease to apply, as per Art 50, para 3. That means trade arrangements with the EU, the CU and the SM just stop. So do, the 40+ deals with other countries that the EU had negotiated. Tariffs, although not significant in most sectors, will be applied. Agricultural products will be subject to 100% (rather than limited) checks at registered Border Inspection Points. Import/export licences will be needed, triggering customs delays. Travel documents will be scrutinised more carefully leading to delays at ports, airports and stations. Just see what happened at Gare du Nord in March. Professional qualifications will not be recognised, hurting the service sector which makes up 80% of the UK economy and where we have a significant surplus over the EU.
I firmly believe that leaving with a deal is a far better option than crashing out, for all the reasons outlined above.
The only deal on the table is the one the UK Government agreed in Nov 2018. Parliament has rejected it 3 times but the EU, understandably after 2 years of talks, is not prepared to negotiate any further. Unless the red lines change significantly it is dead in the water. Farage claims a mandate to be involved in the negotiations - but there aren't any and unlikely to be any in the near future.
So, it looks like the only 2 options are Revoke A50 and Remain or crash out without a deal in October. The latter is the default legal position.

Let's assume that no-deal happens.

The UK will want to negotiate trade agreements with various countries and trading blocs. Our biggest customer is the EU, so that would, surely, be the best place to start. Especially as there is almost complete convergence.
If we have left without a deal, then the first 3 items on the EU27's agenda will be the financial settlement, citizen's rights and the Irish border.
So, we'll have taken an irrevocable decision to get back to where we are now.

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain) Find me on twitter @derbyhoop

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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:10 - May 29 with 1451 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:05 - May 29 by derbyhoop

When the UK was granted an extension to Oct 31 Donald Tusk asked us not to waste the time.
Since then, the PM has said she will step down and the Withdrawal Bill has been shelved. The Tory party are involved in a glorified beauty (ugly?) contest for a new leader, most of whom seem determined to promote a "no deal" Brexit. I prefer crash out, and will explain why.
Crash out means all treaties shall cease to apply, as per Art 50, para 3. That means trade arrangements with the EU, the CU and the SM just stop. So do, the 40+ deals with other countries that the EU had negotiated. Tariffs, although not significant in most sectors, will be applied. Agricultural products will be subject to 100% (rather than limited) checks at registered Border Inspection Points. Import/export licences will be needed, triggering customs delays. Travel documents will be scrutinised more carefully leading to delays at ports, airports and stations. Just see what happened at Gare du Nord in March. Professional qualifications will not be recognised, hurting the service sector which makes up 80% of the UK economy and where we have a significant surplus over the EU.
I firmly believe that leaving with a deal is a far better option than crashing out, for all the reasons outlined above.
The only deal on the table is the one the UK Government agreed in Nov 2018. Parliament has rejected it 3 times but the EU, understandably after 2 years of talks, is not prepared to negotiate any further. Unless the red lines change significantly it is dead in the water. Farage claims a mandate to be involved in the negotiations - but there aren't any and unlikely to be any in the near future.
So, it looks like the only 2 options are Revoke A50 and Remain or crash out without a deal in October. The latter is the default legal position.

Let's assume that no-deal happens.

The UK will want to negotiate trade agreements with various countries and trading blocs. Our biggest customer is the EU, so that would, surely, be the best place to start. Especially as there is almost complete convergence.
If we have left without a deal, then the first 3 items on the EU27's agenda will be the financial settlement, citizen's rights and the Irish border.
So, we'll have taken an irrevocable decision to get back to where we are now.


I don't understand all of the trade agreement stuff and have no intention of finding out. However, say we get to 31st October and there's no deal and the EU won't give us an extension to close a deal, why can't they then give us an extension to negotiate a 'no deal deal' - that is an extension to clarify what no deal actually means?
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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:12 - May 29 with 1449 views2Thomas2Bowles

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:10 - May 29 by ElHoop

I don't understand all of the trade agreement stuff and have no intention of finding out. However, say we get to 31st October and there's no deal and the EU won't give us an extension to close a deal, why can't they then give us an extension to negotiate a 'no deal deal' - that is an extension to clarify what no deal actually means?


They want the £39Billion first

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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:13 - May 29 with 1441 viewsSnipper

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:05 - May 29 by derbyhoop

When the UK was granted an extension to Oct 31 Donald Tusk asked us not to waste the time.
Since then, the PM has said she will step down and the Withdrawal Bill has been shelved. The Tory party are involved in a glorified beauty (ugly?) contest for a new leader, most of whom seem determined to promote a "no deal" Brexit. I prefer crash out, and will explain why.
Crash out means all treaties shall cease to apply, as per Art 50, para 3. That means trade arrangements with the EU, the CU and the SM just stop. So do, the 40+ deals with other countries that the EU had negotiated. Tariffs, although not significant in most sectors, will be applied. Agricultural products will be subject to 100% (rather than limited) checks at registered Border Inspection Points. Import/export licences will be needed, triggering customs delays. Travel documents will be scrutinised more carefully leading to delays at ports, airports and stations. Just see what happened at Gare du Nord in March. Professional qualifications will not be recognised, hurting the service sector which makes up 80% of the UK economy and where we have a significant surplus over the EU.
I firmly believe that leaving with a deal is a far better option than crashing out, for all the reasons outlined above.
The only deal on the table is the one the UK Government agreed in Nov 2018. Parliament has rejected it 3 times but the EU, understandably after 2 years of talks, is not prepared to negotiate any further. Unless the red lines change significantly it is dead in the water. Farage claims a mandate to be involved in the negotiations - but there aren't any and unlikely to be any in the near future.
So, it looks like the only 2 options are Revoke A50 and Remain or crash out without a deal in October. The latter is the default legal position.

Let's assume that no-deal happens.

The UK will want to negotiate trade agreements with various countries and trading blocs. Our biggest customer is the EU, so that would, surely, be the best place to start. Especially as there is almost complete convergence.
If we have left without a deal, then the first 3 items on the EU27's agenda will be the financial settlement, citizen's rights and the Irish border.
So, we'll have taken an irrevocable decision to get back to where we are now.


So to summarise, we’re being stubborn, and the EU are not being stubborn.

FFS man, I know you’re a europhile, but the EU are trying every dirty trick in the book to stop us leaving. We are the first domino to ever threaten to topple. They know rightly that there’d be more to follow.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:29 - May 29 with 1410 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:12 - May 29 by 2Thomas2Bowles

They want the £39Billion first


They can have the £39 billion so far as I'm concerned - just do a deal or do a no deal and you can have it.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:41 - May 29 with 1392 viewsBucksRanger

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:29 - May 29 by ElHoop

They can have the £39 billion so far as I'm concerned - just do a deal or do a no deal and you can have it.


No. Absolutely not. That £39 billion would be far better spent in the UK.

£750 million per week for a year for the NHS for one thing.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 10:59 - May 29 with 1359 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:41 - May 29 by BucksRanger

No. Absolutely not. That £39 billion would be far better spent in the UK.

£750 million per week for a year for the NHS for one thing.


But this isn't a penalty. Whatever we owe them is what we owe, whether it's £39 billion or not. If we want a good deal or a good no deal then we have to settle up the tab surely? If they owed us £39 billion would you be saying that?
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Our country is fckd match thread on 11:07 - May 29 with 1349 viewsderbyhoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:13 - May 29 by Snipper

So to summarise, we’re being stubborn, and the EU are not being stubborn.

FFS man, I know you’re a europhile, but the EU are trying every dirty trick in the book to stop us leaving. We are the first domino to ever threaten to topple. They know rightly that there’d be more to follow.


Maybe the EU are being stubborn but they are following the rules and it is the UK that chose to leave, not the EU choosing to leave the UK. As to the EU trying dirty tricks, it was the UK that tried to appeal directly to Germany and France, etc, rather than the EU as a whole.
The UK compounded the difficulties by laying down red lines that are incompatible with frictionless trade. And, unless they agree a position on the Irish border, it will be the UK responsible for breaking an international agreement, i.e. Good Friday.

For those, like the Brexit party, offering simplistic solutions, or undefined solutions, like the Leave side in the referendum, they are now coming up against the realities and finding out that it is complex.
[Post edited 29 May 2019 11:11]

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain) Find me on twitter @derbyhoop

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Our country is fckd match thread on 11:19 - May 29 with 1322 viewsBucksRanger

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:59 - May 29 by ElHoop

But this isn't a penalty. Whatever we owe them is what we owe, whether it's £39 billion or not. If we want a good deal or a good no deal then we have to settle up the tab surely? If they owed us £39 billion would you be saying that?


How do you know we owe them that sum? Have you ever seen a breakdown of what this money is for? Has it ever been argued out in public? If so, please post me a link.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 11:34 - May 29 with 1311 viewskensalriser

Our country is fckd match thread on 11:19 - May 29 by BucksRanger

How do you know we owe them that sum? Have you ever seen a breakdown of what this money is for? Has it ever been argued out in public? If so, please post me a link.


How else do you think Nige is going to get paid his handsome EU pension?

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Our country is fckd match thread on 11:56 - May 29 with 1279 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 11:19 - May 29 by BucksRanger

How do you know we owe them that sum? Have you ever seen a breakdown of what this money is for? Has it ever been argued out in public? If so, please post me a link.


How do you know that we don't owe it?

They spent years negotiating this aspect of 'the deal' so I would assume that the figure has some credibility. From an accounting/legal perspective the 'completion statement' for a 'change of partnership' of the EU would be massively complex, so such a figure isn't exactly a surprise to me.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:00 - May 29 with 1268 viewsLythamR

Our country is fckd match thread on 11:19 - May 29 by BucksRanger

How do you know we owe them that sum? Have you ever seen a breakdown of what this money is for? Has it ever been argued out in public? If so, please post me a link.


These are a reasonable outline

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill

and

https://cdn.obr.uk/EFO-MaRch_2018.pdf
Office for Budget Responsibility March 2018 report
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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:18 - May 29 with 1256 views2Thomas2Bowles

Our country is fckd match thread on 11:34 - May 29 by kensalriser

How else do you think Nige is going to get paid his handsome EU pension?


Still, we won't have to be paying MEPs wages and pensions for evermore.

Sounds like a win to me.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 13:31 - May 29 with 1206 viewsjonno

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:10 - May 29 by ElHoop

I don't understand all of the trade agreement stuff and have no intention of finding out. However, say we get to 31st October and there's no deal and the EU won't give us an extension to close a deal, why can't they then give us an extension to negotiate a 'no deal deal' - that is an extension to clarify what no deal actually means?


The BBC European correspondent was saying this morning that is what a lot of the EU side are expecting to happen. There will be an "extension to the extension" to allow a new leaving arrangement to be negotiated. If this happens then of course it shows that Theresa May has basically wasted three years of everybody's life, not to mention causing massive disruption over that period for businesses.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:20 - May 29 with 1168 viewsElHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:31 - May 29 by jonno

The BBC European correspondent was saying this morning that is what a lot of the EU side are expecting to happen. There will be an "extension to the extension" to allow a new leaving arrangement to be negotiated. If this happens then of course it shows that Theresa May has basically wasted three years of everybody's life, not to mention causing massive disruption over that period for businesses.


That's interesting - I guess that nobody has done anything as big as this before, as a negotiated process, so I'm not sure whether May was crap at working out the overall strategy, crap at negotiating it, or both. It's not just her though. The EU could have taken the trouble to decide exactly what it wants to be and if it wants to be a hardcore federal state of a few nations and a separate looser affiliation of the remainder then we could probably have stayed in that looser federation. I don't think that history will smile on either party when all is said and done.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:21 - May 29 with 1117 viewskensalriser

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:31 - May 29 by jonno

The BBC European correspondent was saying this morning that is what a lot of the EU side are expecting to happen. There will be an "extension to the extension" to allow a new leaving arrangement to be negotiated. If this happens then of course it shows that Theresa May has basically wasted three years of everybody's life, not to mention causing massive disruption over that period for businesses.


Of course, if Rees-Mogg , Baker, Francois and all the other fundamentalists had voted for the deal, we would actually already be out of the EU now.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:32 - May 29 with 1097 views2Thomas2Bowles

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:21 - May 29 by kensalriser

Of course, if Rees-Mogg , Baker, Francois and all the other fundamentalists had voted for the deal, we would actually already be out of the EU now.


You mean half out. or out but not really out, with the EU still having a say on what we can or can't do.

Remainers still would not be happy, they want us all in not half in, right?

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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:41 - May 29 with 1077 viewsQPR_John

Our country is fckd match thread on 23:49 - May 28 by QPR_Jim

I didn't think that it would be such a big issue as any leave supporter can argue that they don't like aspects of the EU and that the trade deals don't make up for that or any other arguement. But if he can't concede that the EU, if nothing else, is effective as a trade bloc in getting better trade deals by unifying 28 countries then there's no point discussing it any further as far as I can see.

Can't wait until he tells all the other trade blocs around the world that they've been wasting their time.


" But if he can't concede that the EU, if nothing else, is effective as a trade bloc in getting better trade deals by unifying 28 countries then there's no point discussing it any further as far as I can see. "

Well that proves a point.
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