| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo 16:54 - Apr 16 with 24236 views | loftboy |
All my deliveries were in W1, SW1 and SE1, drove past the shell building, it’s covered in graffiti, ended up with an hours overtime as it took me best part of two hours to get back to East London from Victoria.
So one big question, how is causing massive traffic jams good for the environment?
My company has just replaced its entire fleet of 100 vans with ultra low emission vans, all buses are now super green, so businesses seem to be doing their bit. Just seems senseless to me. |  |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 12:18 - Apr 18 with 2200 views | FDC |
Yeah you don't always need the majority of the public on your side to get things done. Depends what you're trying to do. Small groups of fringe political actors can effect enormous changes with the right tactics. (not necessarily saying ER have adopted the right tactics). [Post edited 18 Apr 2019 12:18]
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 12:34 - Apr 18 with 2149 views | R_from_afar |
I think one of the biggest issues with what ER are protesting about is that the ever-increasing pace of technological change has lulled many into thinking that if an environmental crisis occurs, we can fix it as and when.
Unfortunately, that just won't be possible. We might be able to mitigate *some* of the impacts but if we go past certain tipping points, there will be no manmade way back. If we lose all the ice sheets, not only will sea levels rise by tens of metres globally but the earth's ability to reflect heat back into space (its albedo) will be reduced, compounding the problem.
This is why ER are saying it is an emergency. No one can fix this stuff once the tipping point is passed.
To make this a bit more "real" here are some figures: It costs around £5000 a metre to protect coastlines (in the UK) and even then, that protection may not work. An estimate of the cost of protecting the entire US coastline from sea level rises was made a few years back. The figure? $155bn.
Food for thought. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 13:19 - Apr 18 with 2099 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 17:27 - Apr 17 by W12Mikey |
I have a lot of time for Antti's views on football, but was pretty disappointed (OK - absolutely enraged is more accurate) by his encouragement for the protestors. The point is not whether you agree that climate change is a menace etc (for the record, I personally think the danger has been exaggerated and that reducing carbon emissions should not be our biggest priority); the point is what behaviour is legitimate in trying to persuade other people of your view? I am just about OK with peaceful protest involving marching down the street waving banners etc (although even that is clearly disruptive to other people's right to use the street) but Extinction Rebellion clearly state that they intend to cause disruption to other people's lives in order to force the government to adopt their policies. I consider that completely unacceptable. We live in a democracy, where if people want a government that thinks their environmental concerns are the most important issue then they can vote Green, or even form their own party. In fact, at the 2017 General Election only 1.9% of voters actually voted Green. So it sounds like these protests are an attempt by a tiny minority of fanatics to force their views on the rest of us.
Would Antti be equally supportive of holders of other minority views disrupting his life to force the government to adopt their views? Brexit supporters for example? Oh..wait.. that's not a minority view, is it? |
Thanks for your kind words Mikey.
You raise some really good points. I'm fine with protesting things - we all have a right to protest, march etc and usually (if not always) these things are planned in advance so anyone who might be disrupted should be able to make other arrangements. Brexit supporters have already disrupted travel (or tried to), by putting devices on train lines and holding up the Eurostar. Do I approve of that? No, but I wouldn't approve of environmentalists doing that either. It is definitely a grey area, because I had no problem at all with the Brexit march or the rally in London - or any peaceful protest. But if Yaxley-Lennon was spouting his nonsense while closing roads, I imagine I would become angry!
Where I disagree with you is over your comments on the Green Party. The Green Party, for me, shouldn't need to exist. All major parties should be Green - this shouldn't be political, it's common sense. As everyone has said on here: we all want cleaner air, less pollutants, reliable food, clean water, clean energy and to keep nature intact where we can - the only reasons to disagree with any of that are because of pressure from companies/people who see their economic prospects being affected by decisions that have to be made to make those things happen. Voters of all persuasions hold 'Green' views, but might still feel overall they want to vote with more traditional parties. Our politics are fascinating - you could ask the population where their priorities lie and I suspect the NHS would be near the top of the vast majority of lists and the top of many. And yet 'we' continually vote Conservative, which seems counter-intuitive to that concern.
I don't think they are trying to 'force' the government to accept their policies. I think that's over-stating it (although they want them to). But they are trying to make a splash and force an issue which is far more important for us all than bloody Brexit - which has been a colossal waste of everyone's time and money. We've spent years arguing over the question of sovereignty, when just maybe there are more important things to get worked up about - like the future of the planet for our children?
Whether you believe it or not, time is running out and the pace of change is ludicrously slow. How many years did it take to introduce a simple plastic bag tax which has been hugely successful? It was operating in Ireland for ages before it was here but it took years to bring in something that simple and that effective - and even that's a drop in the plastic-filled ocean. Look how quickly plastic straws have become a no-no - but that could've been done years and years ago. And that's before we even start talking about fossil fuels.
I'm sorry I enraged you, that wasn't my intention. But enough is enough and sometimes direct action is needed. these people aren't selfish. They don't get anything out of this, there's no economic reward, they're not doing it for personal gain - it's because they believe we can, if we focus, make some real changes that are desperately, desperately needed. Stevec's view is instructive. It mirrors how governments are essentially acting: 'has a country disappeared yet? No? Well, get back to me when people are actually drowning in the fkn sea, then we'll make some decisions (although we all know the wealthy will be ok - this will be chiefly a poor person's problem, so...).'
Again, I'm sorry you're enraged by my view and by the inconvenience of some roads being closed. But I get enraged by the fact insects are in serious decline and all the enormous issues that will cause; that the world's insatiable desire for meat is destroying natural vast areas of wildlife and rainforest (I'm not saying everyone needs to be vegan - but most people could cut down heavily on meat without a problem) and all the many knock-on effects that has; that the pace to move on from fossil fuels is so painfully slow; the insane fact that 1% of the world owns half the world's wealth; that half of England is owned by less than 1% of the population; that our oceans are choking on man-made plastic; and that my kids and their kids in all likelihood are going to suffer from the selfishness and slow-wittedness of this generation and the last. These protests are a valid cry: GET THE FK ON WITH IT.
That's what makes me enraged. At least these people are doing something about it - and I can only support them. This is not an attack on you mate, to be clear! Just my general feeling. I'm aware that, really, I should stay off non-football topics on here! |  |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 13:25 - Apr 18 with 2084 views | RangersDave |
it doesnt matter how much they protest, nothing will ever happen, certainly in the short to mid term.
Why? well the UK for instance is a mere 'drop on a very big plastic filled ocean' of countries that polute (and they all do in 1 way or another).
if we were really really serious about the environment and the planet we live on, we would give all 3rd world countries a 'leg up' by giving them and developing for them free clean burn technology, and giving free solar panels to hot and sunny countries etc.
We would also be boycotting China (who laughably do have a pseudo attitude to improving their environment) until thy put their house in order.
The trouble is we wont, the yanks wont, europe wont. why? because we are dependant on goods from China, so wont do anything to stop or slow that all.
China still opens 1 new coal powered power station a week, uses steam engines around coal mines in the north, and if you have even been to Bejing, as i do often with work, you'd see no real palpable improvement in atmosphere pollution over the last 5 years.
i stay in a nice hotel, usually on the 5th floor, and looking down from my window, i cannot see the street....... from that 5th floor, thats how thick it is.
Protesting in the UK is one thing, as our pollution output isnt good, but le them go to China and protest, and see where they get. |  |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 14:11 - Apr 18 with 2037 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 13:25 - Apr 18 by RangersDave |
it doesnt matter how much they protest, nothing will ever happen, certainly in the short to mid term.
Why? well the UK for instance is a mere 'drop on a very big plastic filled ocean' of countries that polute (and they all do in 1 way or another).
if we were really really serious about the environment and the planet we live on, we would give all 3rd world countries a 'leg up' by giving them and developing for them free clean burn technology, and giving free solar panels to hot and sunny countries etc.
We would also be boycotting China (who laughably do have a pseudo attitude to improving their environment) until thy put their house in order.
The trouble is we wont, the yanks wont, europe wont. why? because we are dependant on goods from China, so wont do anything to stop or slow that all.
China still opens 1 new coal powered power station a week, uses steam engines around coal mines in the north, and if you have even been to Bejing, as i do often with work, you'd see no real palpable improvement in atmosphere pollution over the last 5 years.
i stay in a nice hotel, usually on the 5th floor, and looking down from my window, i cannot see the street....... from that 5th floor, thats how thick it is.
Protesting in the UK is one thing, as our pollution output isnt good, but le them go to China and protest, and see where they get. |
I'm sorry mate, that just isn't true.
China whilst being the biggest polluter is also the biggest investor in Green tech in the world.
here is the rest of the link. Agree about the protesting part though.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/china-leading-worlds-clean-energy-investment-says-re |  | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 14:43 - Apr 18 with 2000 views | ElHoop |
The only thing that you can do that will make much difference is to vote Green in the next election. UKIP moved the goalposts on immigration/EU by getting enough votes to make a difference. If you think that this is the most important issue then vote Green - I don't see how these protests have done any harm to their cause. Everybody is talking about it now - job done. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:04 - Apr 18 with 1962 views | timcocking |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 15:28 - Apr 18 with 1941 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 14:43 - Apr 18 by ElHoop |
The only thing that you can do that will make much difference is to vote Green in the next election. UKIP moved the goalposts on immigration/EU by getting enough votes to make a difference. If you think that this is the most important issue then vote Green - I don't see how these protests have done any harm to their cause. Everybody is talking about it now - job done. |
Plug alert.
Labour has a great Green manifesto.
https://www.labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/The-Green-Transformation-.p | | | |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 15:33 - Apr 18 with 1929 views | RangersDave |
I think these words are the most important from that report though.....
"China is the world’s largest emitter and remains heavily dependent on coal.
However, the country’s plans to shift towards clean energy, led by concerns over the impacts of air pollution and climate change, as well as its keenness to expand in new markets, is also well underway."
i note they quote the rise in investment, but dont mention that 20% of that is wages and taxation which has for the last 5 years seen a rise every year in both. Once you take 1 billion people or more getting a raise every year plus taxes i wonder what the real figure for investment actually is?
My company has seen year on year raises, and then got hit by the HK$ and the US$ which a lot of companies over there require.
Like most of these reports i take them with a pinch of salt unless i can categorically say that their figures are correct.
Take wind turbines. renewable? right? yup?
cheap to build? nope! self funding? nope, not really
The real story never comes out. the carbon malarky needed to make just 1 windmill includes cars for workers going to and from work, the manufacture of the raw material, the transport of raw material, the machining of the raw material, the transport to where they need to be, which if out to see includes messing around with the marine environment, etc. Plus the generators are not as reliable as peeps think, and need changing out quite often.
But we dont hear that. We just hear ...... turbines good, trucks bad. (i agree on the latter by the way), but its all a green quoters 'red herring' if your willing to look and analyse the B.S. we are fed every day.
Electric cars? pah, useless at the moment. pricey too. Give it 10 years and when we've dug up half of wherever to get the rare metals for the batteries, they might go a decent range, and be cheaper, but what price the environment in the meantime? again transport by diesel etc etc.
I'm not sure of an answer to be honest, but it must be out there. | |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 15:39 - Apr 18 with 1918 views | qprd |
Yes, China is actually leading the way on the global stage, particularly with electric vehicles
Any car company that wants to sell cars in China has to sell at least a certain percentage of green cars, or face a massive fine.
China heavily heavily subsidized green vehicle purchases with tax credits and has built a s*itload of charging stations
having said all that, china is still a horrible polluter
but they understand that there is money to be made with green energy and are investing accordingly. in other countries with crony capitalism like the us and uk where dirty energy companies have outsized influence, the govts often discourage investment in clean energy |  | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 15:50 - Apr 18 with 1904 views | qprd |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 13:25 - Apr 18 by RangersDave |
it doesnt matter how much they protest, nothing will ever happen, certainly in the short to mid term.
Why? well the UK for instance is a mere 'drop on a very big plastic filled ocean' of countries that polute (and they all do in 1 way or another).
if we were really really serious about the environment and the planet we live on, we would give all 3rd world countries a 'leg up' by giving them and developing for them free clean burn technology, and giving free solar panels to hot and sunny countries etc.
We would also be boycotting China (who laughably do have a pseudo attitude to improving their environment) until thy put their house in order.
The trouble is we wont, the yanks wont, europe wont. why? because we are dependant on goods from China, so wont do anything to stop or slow that all.
China still opens 1 new coal powered power station a week, uses steam engines around coal mines in the north, and if you have even been to Bejing, as i do often with work, you'd see no real palpable improvement in atmosphere pollution over the last 5 years.
i stay in a nice hotel, usually on the 5th floor, and looking down from my window, i cannot see the street....... from that 5th floor, thats how thick it is.
Protesting in the UK is one thing, as our pollution output isnt good, but le them go to China and protest, and see where they get. |
i disagree with a lot of whats in here, but just to highlight one major point:
the protestors arent protesting the uk, as a country or the government. this started as a protest of shell, which is a massive multinational corporation which is like a country onto itself. exxon, shell- many of these are american and british companies, but the damage they do to the environment isnt contained to the countries in which theyre headquartered and in which their stocks are listed. | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:07 - Apr 18 with 1867 views | QPR_John |
"China whilst being the biggest polluter is also the biggest investor in Green tech in the world. "
Surely that is the same argument with the congestion charge and low emission zone. If you invest in green technology you can pollute as much as you like. If you can afford the charges you can pollute as much as you like. | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:13 - Apr 18 with 1854 views | LythamR |
It unfortunate that some people are being inconvenienced by the ER protests and I sympathise have been held up regularly by ant fracking protests for the last 2 years plus locally.
I still support the local protests though and I support the ER protests as well, I think they have been done well in the main.
There is for me an unpalatable truth that nobody really seems to want to address and I certainly dont know the answer but the prime problem is human beings, there are simply too many consuming far too much to be sustainable.
while global economics is geared towards continued growth the worlds governments and corporation are unlikely to point the finger in the right direction, we have to find a way to control population as well as consumption otherwise any reductions in carbon footprint etc per capita we achieve will just be a drop in the ocean. |  | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:28 - Apr 18 with 1820 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:07 - Apr 18 by QPR_John |
"China whilst being the biggest polluter is also the biggest investor in Green tech in the world. "
Surely that is the same argument with the congestion charge and low emission zone. If you invest in green technology you can pollute as much as you like. If you can afford the charges you can pollute as much as you like. |
Well it more about trends to be honest.
CO2 emissions are rising overall but slowing in comparison to GDP growth.
This is a indication China is going in the right direction at least and at some point CO2 emissions will shrink overall.
To be fair the majority of countries are, including our own. The worrying part is that it isn’t happening fast enough 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:31 - Apr 18 with 1812 views | loftboy |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:13 - Apr 18 by LythamR |
It unfortunate that some people are being inconvenienced by the ER protests and I sympathise have been held up regularly by ant fracking protests for the last 2 years plus locally.
I still support the local protests though and I support the ER protests as well, I think they have been done well in the main.
There is for me an unpalatable truth that nobody really seems to want to address and I certainly dont know the answer but the prime problem is human beings, there are simply too many consuming far too much to be sustainable.
while global economics is geared towards continued growth the worlds governments and corporation are unlikely to point the finger in the right direction, we have to find a way to control population as well as consumption otherwise any reductions in carbon footprint etc per capita we achieve will just be a drop in the ocean. |
Fracking should be banned end of, all these tremors every time they start can’t just be a coincidence.
As far as being inconvenienced by this current demo..... got delayed again today so clocked out of work an hour late, which meant I haven’t got the time to get from my home to Frimley Park hospital in Surrey to visit my 85 year old mum as planned who has had a fall and broken her neck, I have now had to cancel my Easter travel plans so I can get over there Saturday. Can’t go tomorrow as my boys are down from up north and they bought us tickets for the Blackburn game.
Yesterday someone was interviewed on tv and was asked what would happen if the emergency services needed to get over Waterloo Bridge, they replied that a mild inconvenience never hurt anyone. | |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:38 - Apr 18 with 1802 views | loftboy |
And good luck tomorrow to anyone who has worked their arses off to pay for a holiday flying out of Heathrow which looks like could be the next target. | |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:38 - Apr 18 with 1802 views | Lblock |
Lovely day today, bit of a breeze, but plenty of sunshine and good to be outside
Nice |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:43 - Apr 18 with 1785 views | RangersDave |
great days for water cannons until we sold them! | |
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:44 - Apr 18 with 1783 views | BuckR |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 16:31 - Apr 18 by loftboy |
Fracking should be banned end of, all these tremors every time they start can’t just be a coincidence.
As far as being inconvenienced by this current demo..... got delayed again today so clocked out of work an hour late, which meant I haven’t got the time to get from my home to Frimley Park hospital in Surrey to visit my 85 year old mum as planned who has had a fall and broken her neck, I have now had to cancel my Easter travel plans so I can get over there Saturday. Can’t go tomorrow as my boys are down from up north and they bought us tickets for the Blackburn game.
Yesterday someone was interviewed on tv and was asked what would happen if the emergency services needed to get over Waterloo Bridge, they replied that a mild inconvenience never hurt anyone. |
Exactly - all for protests but they are going about it is just plain selfish | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 17:21 - Apr 18 with 1749 views | Juzzie |
I agree with Antti in that there should not be the need for a Green Party, all parties should be green as part of their manifesto.
However, IMO, there shouldn't also need to be one single charity organisation in existence but there are loads of them because the government aren't doing their job. They waste milions & billions on other things and every person who donates to charity are in fact paying twice.
The money is there, we've seen it. £8billion to bail out the banks 10 years ago, £1billion given to the DUP to get them on side over Brexit, companies and wealthy billionaires donating hundreds of millions of pounds to help rebuild Notre Dame, £millions made instantly available after 9/11 and so on. Why hasn't all this money been correctly appropriated to help the ordinary person (what taxes at least are meant to do)
For decades Governments all over the world have failed the very people (and planet) they are employed (they're not 'in power' as is continually used) to work for.
Not sure where I'm going with thst but just wanted to say it.
[Post edited 18 Apr 2019 19:38]
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| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 19:24 - Apr 18 with 1672 views | ElHoop |
Long-Bailey is somewhat omnipresent at the moment, or so it would seem from the outside.
Is she the 'great white hope' of Labour actually producing a woman leader/PM? | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 20:00 - Apr 18 with 1639 views | Sharpediver |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 13:04 - Apr 17 by stevec |
But these fundamentals have all previously happened hundreds and thousands of years before and, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure they had nothing to do with Shell or the Ford Motor Company.
As I attained to in an earlier email, this planet has self managed itself for about, let's see, four and half billion years now. Quite a long time as it goes.
Yet apparently left wingers and climate changers can join forces in the 21st Century and manage the Earth better than the Earth itself. |
I think if you did a bit if research mate you'll find the same events did indeed happen before and resulted in mass extinctions of nearly all species on earth. Still, let's not let a bit of evidence get in the way of a chance to attack a few 'left-wingers' eh? If you hadn't noticed we are now living through the Sixth Mass Extinction. Your views will soon end up like the rest of us and the dinosaurs. Kaput old chap.
If you want a starting point into the current situation read David Wallace Wells' recently published 'Uninhabitable Earth". Or, you could just carry on making things up. | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 20:03 - Apr 18 with 1636 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 19:24 - Apr 18 by ElHoop |
Long-Bailey is somewhat omnipresent at the moment, or so it would seem from the outside.
Is she the 'great white hope' of Labour actually producing a woman leader/PM? |
She’ll never stand for leader mate. Good as heads that from the horse’s mouth. | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 20:45 - Apr 18 with 1597 views | ElHoop |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 20:03 - Apr 18 by BazzaInTheLoft |
She’ll never stand for leader mate. Good as heads that from the horse’s mouth. |
Well if she says that then I would certainly have agreed with her a year ago, but she's improved massively in a difficult enough looking environment. Under our totally voyeuristic hats we used to take the piss out of her, but not now. | | | |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 23:42 - Apr 18 with 1489 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Got caught up big time today in the climate change demo on 20:00 - Apr 18 by Sharpediver |
I think if you did a bit if research mate you'll find the same events did indeed happen before and resulted in mass extinctions of nearly all species on earth. Still, let's not let a bit of evidence get in the way of a chance to attack a few 'left-wingers' eh? If you hadn't noticed we are now living through the Sixth Mass Extinction. Your views will soon end up like the rest of us and the dinosaurs. Kaput old chap.
If you want a starting point into the current situation read David Wallace Wells' recently published 'Uninhabitable Earth". Or, you could just carry on making things up. |
Good luck plugging that book to Xi Jinping and Li Keqian. |  | | |
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