| Lovely as ever on 08:05 - Aug 4 with 2301 views | daveB |
| Lovely as ever on 06:07 - Aug 4 by 80s_Boy |
The only part of my post where I mentioned patriotism was when it was about them booing the knee due to the association they had - rightly or wrongly - formed with riots which saw war memorials desecrated last summer.
If you didn't grow up in the area you would possibly not understand the emotional attachment the majority of people have to the memory of those who fought and died during the World Wars especially as it was one the most targeted parts of London due to the position of the docks. [Post edited 4 Aug 2021 6:08]
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Taking the knee has bugger all to do with the protests, they were not riots either.
Whatever peoples opinion on players taking the knee booing it is not patriotic.
I grew up on a council estate in shepherds Bush, My Grandads and their brothers were both in the 2nd world war so i get the emotion and personally wasn't happy with what happened to those statues last summer but there really isn't much of a connection between what those people did and what footballers are doing |  | |  |
| Lovely as ever on 08:05 - Aug 4 with 2278 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 08:02 - Aug 4 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Genuine question 80s Boy, and I apologise if I am totally off target, but do you post as anyone else on here?
Agree that advert is rank. |
Nope, just me.
If there's someone else who posts similar to me I feel for you because one is probably enough! |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 08:10 - Aug 4 with 2265 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 08:05 - Aug 4 by daveB |
Taking the knee has bugger all to do with the protests, they were not riots either.
Whatever peoples opinion on players taking the knee booing it is not patriotic.
I grew up on a council estate in shepherds Bush, My Grandads and their brothers were both in the 2nd world war so i get the emotion and personally wasn't happy with what happened to those statues last summer but there really isn't much of a connection between what those people did and what footballers are doing |
I said neither that they were right or wrong to associate the knee with the protests and riots, only that they did: although it is not, of course, disputed, that war memorials were vandalised during the protests.
What I find annoying/staggering is that people were happy to throw around allegations of racism being the sole reason without listening to what people were saying.
That smacks of an agenda. | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 08:30 - Aug 4 with 2209 views | Hunterhoop |
| Lovely as ever on 08:10 - Aug 4 by 80s_Boy |
I said neither that they were right or wrong to associate the knee with the protests and riots, only that they did: although it is not, of course, disputed, that war memorials were vandalised during the protests.
What I find annoying/staggering is that people were happy to throw around allegations of racism being the sole reason without listening to what people were saying.
That smacks of an agenda. |
Just going to reverse two words in your last two paragraphs so that it could apply to some Millwall fans about their response to the knee, rather than people’s response to their booing. It works two ways.
“What I find annoying/staggering is that people were happy to throw around allegations of an agenda being the the sole reason without listening to what people were saying.
That smacks of racism.” |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 08:38 - Aug 4 with 2164 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 08:30 - Aug 4 by Hunterhoop |
Just going to reverse two words in your last two paragraphs so that it could apply to some Millwall fans about their response to the knee, rather than people’s response to their booing. It works two ways.
“What I find annoying/staggering is that people were happy to throw around allegations of an agenda being the the sole reason without listening to what people were saying.
That smacks of racism.” |
It does work both ways and that's why the fans should have listened to Marlon Romeo explain why he took the knee.
The problem is/was that it was only one side which was being listened to and it is/was a very nuanced debate.
Neither side is entirely wrong, neither side is entirely right. [Post edited 4 Aug 2021 8:40]
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| Lovely as ever on 08:43 - Aug 4 with 2172 views | Konk |
| Lovely as ever on 21:44 - Aug 3 by 80s_Boy |
Grew up a 20 minute walk from The Den and have had some great days/nights with friends at their matches.
Do they deserve some of the reputation they have? Absolutely. They have some right idiots who follow them and they are accepted far too easily and without question for my liking.
But there is no doubt that they are harshly judged by people who don't know the full circumstances behind the headlines or, if we're being honest, because they are the most white working class fanbase in London.
Some examples:
* When other communities came together to tackle the rioters in 2011 they were all praised by the media but the Millwall fans in Eltham were deemed racist by the Guardian who also said they'd only gone out not to protect their area but because an opportunity to attack Black people had presented itself.
* Growing up in the area leaves you with no doubt that it is incredibly patriotic and as they sat watching rioters deface War memorials last year it was obvious that once back in stadiums they would passionately boo the gesture they had - rightly or wrongly - decided was synonymous with the riots.
It was booed throughout the country but did the double-barrelled, privately educated 'liberals' make a point of naming and shaming other clubs or listening to what Millwall fans were saying...?
* The 'Luton' footage is regularly brought out to use as a stick to beat them with despite being over 35 years ago and despite, also it is forgotten, in a season where football violence was at its nadir in this country. In the same season our fans rioted at Portman Road and there was footage but do we get subjected to it on multiple occasions throughout the years?
I could go on to false allegations of racism by opposition black players at The Den which are, despite the presence of top end surveillance equipment and a open desire by the club to ban people who carry out such actions, never proved (and always seem to come from players on losing sides too).
However, if you want to know what Millwall are up against this should leave you shocked..
http://www.millwall-history.org.uk/Press_Coverage5.htm
They have idiots but are also up against some idiots who simply don't like people from the background most Millwall fans are from. [Post edited 3 Aug 2021 21:45]
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On the Eltham front, as a middle-aged black colleague from the Elephant said at the time, "They've been 'defending' Eltham from black people, my whole life". Fair to say that amongst black friends and colleagues from South London, Eltham is somewhere they've grown-up being told to avoid, and which they tell their kids to give a swerve. I guess the area's reputation might have had something to do with people making assumptions about the motives of some of those out on the streets during the riots. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Lovely as ever on 09:55 - Aug 4 with 2028 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 08:43 - Aug 4 by Konk |
On the Eltham front, as a middle-aged black colleague from the Elephant said at the time, "They've been 'defending' Eltham from black people, my whole life". Fair to say that amongst black friends and colleagues from South London, Eltham is somewhere they've grown-up being told to avoid, and which they tell their kids to give a swerve. I guess the area's reputation might have had something to do with people making assumptions about the motives of some of those out on the streets during the riots. |
Bermondsey suffered from the same reputation as being a racist area too.
Part of that was because it was exclusively White for decades though not because of any antagonistic behaviour towards black people but because Bermondsey Council (prior to the incorporation with Southwark) had a strict policy about housing and only allowed those with family already in the area to move into properties.
Not saying, of course, that there was no racists living in the area but it was more about non locals clearly sticking out: in 2016 I brought my home counties, middle class partner to see where I grew up and we went for a drink in The Old Bank and even she commented on how the locals seemed to suss that she wasn't local and she was treated slightly different from me. Things don't change.
Also, it must be remembered that Bermondsey elected Labour MPs for years until the party decided to put Thachall up and then they went Lib Dem.
It is not a right wing area. | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 10:29 - Aug 4 with 2009 views | distortR |
| Lovely as ever on 09:55 - Aug 4 by 80s_Boy |
Bermondsey suffered from the same reputation as being a racist area too.
Part of that was because it was exclusively White for decades though not because of any antagonistic behaviour towards black people but because Bermondsey Council (prior to the incorporation with Southwark) had a strict policy about housing and only allowed those with family already in the area to move into properties.
Not saying, of course, that there was no racists living in the area but it was more about non locals clearly sticking out: in 2016 I brought my home counties, middle class partner to see where I grew up and we went for a drink in The Old Bank and even she commented on how the locals seemed to suss that she wasn't local and she was treated slightly different from me. Things don't change.
Also, it must be remembered that Bermondsey elected Labour MPs for years until the party decided to put Thachall up and then they went Lib Dem.
It is not a right wing area. |
I used to be the only living boy in new cross, played for a local pub. i also have a long connection to the eltham area through my wife.
New Cross - locals up for it, only real trouble I had was from visiting Norwegian skinheads down for a day out. But then, they do attract idiots and too many revel in it.
Eltham thing - I'm all for locals defending their own community but reckon these were a sort. No one I know in the area wanted them or potential rioters.
First line of defence, act with decency. Then if it comes on...... but they didn't. |  | | |
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| Lovely as ever on 10:43 - Aug 4 with 1962 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 10:29 - Aug 4 by distortR |
I used to be the only living boy in new cross, played for a local pub. i also have a long connection to the eltham area through my wife.
New Cross - locals up for it, only real trouble I had was from visiting Norwegian skinheads down for a day out. But then, they do attract idiots and too many revel in it.
Eltham thing - I'm all for locals defending their own community but reckon these were a sort. No one I know in the area wanted them or potential rioters.
First line of defence, act with decency. Then if it comes on...... but they didn't. |
'they do attract idiots and too many revel in it.'
Totally agree if this is about Millwall and my first post said that I find it more than uncomfortable how easily and widely accepted idiots are among the fanbase over there.
Also, the reputation and films like 'Green Street', 'Football Factory' and the appalling bad remake of 'The Firm' has made them a magnet for idiots.
You've got to feel sorry for the ordinary fans who just want a couple of pints and watch their team play - and these are definitely the vast majority - because it goes beyond the 90 minutes too. I've had friends who pretend they don't like football to people who don't know them that well because they know they'll be judged if they confess to supporting Millwall.
Anyway, I think I've probably said all I feel I should on this thread now and it's been interesting debating different points and different perspectives. All I would finally say is that anyone who goes to football with the intention to throw punches or intimidate is an idiot and should be condemned and banned. However, a lot of shit is thrown at Millwall because they are almost exclusively from a White, working-class background and I'm just asking people to read beyond the headlines written by middle-class 'journalists' and don't be too quick to condemn innocent people when it should be those 'journalists' who should be receiving criticism. I'm proud to come from the same areas and background as those Millwall fans and if you accept lies created by those with an agenda you're insulting and offending a lot of good people who do not deserve such shit in their lives. | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:08 - Aug 4 with 1908 views | daveB |
| Lovely as ever on 08:10 - Aug 4 by 80s_Boy |
I said neither that they were right or wrong to associate the knee with the protests and riots, only that they did: although it is not, of course, disputed, that war memorials were vandalised during the protests.
What I find annoying/staggering is that people were happy to throw around allegations of racism being the sole reason without listening to what people were saying.
That smacks of an agenda. |
When footballers explain the reasons they are taking the knee being to fight against racism and that gets booed some people are going to see that as racist whatever the motives are of the supporters.
I get that those booing are doing so because they believe the knee taking has a different meaning but there is a chance they might be wrong | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:17 - Aug 4 with 1883 views | stowmarketrange |
| Lovely as ever on 10:43 - Aug 4 by 80s_Boy |
'they do attract idiots and too many revel in it.'
Totally agree if this is about Millwall and my first post said that I find it more than uncomfortable how easily and widely accepted idiots are among the fanbase over there.
Also, the reputation and films like 'Green Street', 'Football Factory' and the appalling bad remake of 'The Firm' has made them a magnet for idiots.
You've got to feel sorry for the ordinary fans who just want a couple of pints and watch their team play - and these are definitely the vast majority - because it goes beyond the 90 minutes too. I've had friends who pretend they don't like football to people who don't know them that well because they know they'll be judged if they confess to supporting Millwall.
Anyway, I think I've probably said all I feel I should on this thread now and it's been interesting debating different points and different perspectives. All I would finally say is that anyone who goes to football with the intention to throw punches or intimidate is an idiot and should be condemned and banned. However, a lot of shit is thrown at Millwall because they are almost exclusively from a White, working-class background and I'm just asking people to read beyond the headlines written by middle-class 'journalists' and don't be too quick to condemn innocent people when it should be those 'journalists' who should be receiving criticism. I'm proud to come from the same areas and background as those Millwall fans and if you accept lies created by those with an agenda you're insulting and offending a lot of good people who do not deserve such shit in their lives. |
As I said yesterday mate,I get more annoyed by what they try to do when they play us rather than any headlines in the media.Some of our fans won’t go on Saturday and some won’t be bringing their kids who have waited 17 months to see a game of football live because of the toxic atmosphere.
That is the real shame that a lot of their idiots bring to their club. |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:20 - Aug 4 with 1860 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 11:08 - Aug 4 by daveB |
When footballers explain the reasons they are taking the knee being to fight against racism and that gets booed some people are going to see that as racist whatever the motives are of the supporters.
I get that those booing are doing so because they believe the knee taking has a different meaning but there is a chance they might be wrong |
Honestly my last post to this thread!
I don't think the players are supporting the animals who desecrated the Cenotaph and claims that they are Marxists are absolutely ludicrous.
However, taking the knee was clearly used as support for blm and that movement in this country has become synonymous - rightly or wrongly - with the disgraceful desecration of war memorials. It is disingenuous to expect people to forget that players - and authorities - introduced the gesture to support blm and told us it was.
The obvious solution is to introduce a new neutral gesture with no connotations but that's not going to happen because lines have been drawn. Therefore, my own personal opinion is that the Premier League, FA and clubs need to issue not statements distancing themselves from something they previously supported but to issue statements condemning the actions of those who desecrated the memorials: something they haven't done yet.
They should also agree to give a sizable donation to the British Legion as a goodwill gesture. | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:28 - Aug 4 with 1838 views | robith |
You must be good at twister mate cos you are flexing so hard to make this war memorial thing land |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:29 - Aug 4 with 1836 views | Northernr |
Spend 12 hours on Tuesday getting the last bit of the preview written up.
Rewards...
- Oh great, the Covid thread is back at the top of the board again.
- Oh great, we're having that debate about whether 20 year old lads taking a knee before a football game are actually marxists who hate the war dead again.
Maybe I should just go and volunteer in a tram museum somewhere. |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:36 - Aug 4 with 1794 views | stowmarketrange |
| Lovely as ever on 11:29 - Aug 4 by Northernr |
Spend 12 hours on Tuesday getting the last bit of the preview written up.
Rewards...
- Oh great, the Covid thread is back at the top of the board again.
- Oh great, we're having that debate about whether 20 year old lads taking a knee before a football game are actually marxists who hate the war dead again.
Maybe I should just go and volunteer in a tram museum somewhere. |
Just stand on the end of a platform at Clapham Junction station for 10 mins and the train spotters will soon find you.I made that mistake for the Hampton friendly as I wanted somewhere quiet to remove my mask and eat my lunch.
Give me wasps any day rather than spotters. | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:55 - Aug 4 with 1727 views | Juzzie |
| Lovely as ever on 11:36 - Aug 4 by stowmarketrange |
Just stand on the end of a platform at Clapham Junction station for 10 mins and the train spotters will soon find you.I made that mistake for the Hampton friendly as I wanted somewhere quiet to remove my mask and eat my lunch.
Give me wasps any day rather than spotters. |
Driving to Heathrow on Sunday to pick up my other half from work and there are plane spotters taking pictures of the planes with their mobile phones.
FFS, what's the point? At least use a decent dSLR with 300mm or more zoom lens if you want to get a good picture.
Weirdo's. |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 11:58 - Aug 4 with 1706 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Lovely as ever on 11:29 - Aug 4 by Northernr |
Spend 12 hours on Tuesday getting the last bit of the preview written up.
Rewards...
- Oh great, the Covid thread is back at the top of the board again.
- Oh great, we're having that debate about whether 20 year old lads taking a knee before a football game are actually marxists who hate the war dead again.
Maybe I should just go and volunteer in a tram museum somewhere. |
EDIT: Shite joke landing badly. [Post edited 4 Aug 2021 12:28]
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| Lovely as ever on 15:22 - Aug 4 with 1455 views | joe90 |
| Lovely as ever on 08:43 - Aug 4 by Konk |
On the Eltham front, as a middle-aged black colleague from the Elephant said at the time, "They've been 'defending' Eltham from black people, my whole life". Fair to say that amongst black friends and colleagues from South London, Eltham is somewhere they've grown-up being told to avoid, and which they tell their kids to give a swerve. I guess the area's reputation might have had something to do with people making assumptions about the motives of some of those out on the streets during the riots. |
The NF bookshop was in Welling which is down the road from Eltham. Eltham gets a lot of bad rep, there's actually not a lot going on there. It use to be Kidbrooke that was really rough.
I also have a few black colleagues that grew up in New Cross and told me the Den was no go on match day. A very different experience for Black and Asian people many years ago.
I can understand why some of the older posters may still have the bad image, but the area has definitely changed for he better and I think a lot of what the fans put across is for show. |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 15:34 - Aug 4 with 1422 views | Cliff |
| Lovely as ever on 15:22 - Aug 4 by joe90 |
The NF bookshop was in Welling which is down the road from Eltham. Eltham gets a lot of bad rep, there's actually not a lot going on there. It use to be Kidbrooke that was really rough.
I also have a few black colleagues that grew up in New Cross and told me the Den was no go on match day. A very different experience for Black and Asian people many years ago.
I can understand why some of the older posters may still have the bad image, but the area has definitely changed for he better and I think a lot of what the fans put across is for show. |
The put on a very good show in that case.
I was in on of the shops down Uxbridge Road the last time they visited (and I was allowed to visit as well). The shop is the Al-Dimashqi and it sell real good cheap fruit (it's the only place I know where I can regularly get prickly pears), and baklava. Whilst I was being served a couple of the gentlemen in question popped in and let everyone know that they wanted their country back. |  | | |
| Lovely as ever on 16:02 - Aug 4 with 1331 views | denhamhoop2 |
| Lovely as ever on 11:29 - Aug 4 by Northernr |
Spend 12 hours on Tuesday getting the last bit of the preview written up.
Rewards...
- Oh great, the Covid thread is back at the top of the board again.
- Oh great, we're having that debate about whether 20 year old lads taking a knee before a football game are actually marxists who hate the war dead again.
Maybe I should just go and volunteer in a tram museum somewhere. |
https://www.tramway.co.uk/ Doesn't say if there are any jobs available | | | |
| Lovely as ever on 16:14 - Aug 4 with 1285 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Lovely as ever on 22:06 - Aug 3 by 80s_Boy |
Essox, you have a habit of leaving negative down marks but not offering an alternative opinion or debating the points made.
Genuinely interested in what you didn't like about someone presenting an alternative take to a much marginalised fanbase especially when it contained an acknowledgement that they do attract idiots. |
"not taking a step back when challenged" nothing to do with a neanderthalesque propensity for violence at the merest slight? The ones involved in football hooliganism in this day and age are indefensible, especially in and around grounds where all it does is discourage normal people from attending games. I have been going to Millwall home and away for a few decades now and right up until our last home game with a crowd in attendance the undercurrent of violence is always prevalent with them. Villa are another lot with a similar following who are only looking for a punch up. people who are looking to fight at football are scummy bottom dwellers, no exception. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Lovely as ever on 16:28 - Aug 4 with 1230 views | 80s_Boy |
| Lovely as ever on 16:14 - Aug 4 by Esox_Lucius |
"not taking a step back when challenged" nothing to do with a neanderthalesque propensity for violence at the merest slight? The ones involved in football hooliganism in this day and age are indefensible, especially in and around grounds where all it does is discourage normal people from attending games. I have been going to Millwall home and away for a few decades now and right up until our last home game with a crowd in attendance the undercurrent of violence is always prevalent with them. Villa are another lot with a similar following who are only looking for a punch up. people who are looking to fight at football are scummy bottom dwellers, no exception. |
Villa? Now if you had said the Bluenoses I'd have agreed but Villa? Can't say I can agree with that. Not even in the top 3 worst fans in the West Midlands and feel you must have been incredibly unlucky to be honest.
'nothing to do with a neanderthalesque propensity for violence at the merest slight?'.
I wasn't justifying their behavior, just explaining that it's a local character trait to never stand down when being challenged and remember so well parents of friends, and mine, telling children off for running away from a fight rather then standing up for yourself. I'm not saying that was exclusively a Bermondsey thing - it was prevalent in many working class communities - but it does explain, as I said, why they seem to react to 'banter' as a challenge and an afront. Throw in alcohol, drugs (there is a big cocaine problem among their fans) and 'peer pressure' and it's a perfect storm.
As I said, explanation not justification but would rather you debate points I make rather than leave down marks with no comment because, to use a wonderful South London term, that is a bit muggy. [Post edited 4 Aug 2021 16:29]
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| Lovely as ever on 16:36 - Aug 4 with 1196 views | Juzzie |
Look, some people think they're OK and some people don't.
Can't we just leave it there. We went through all this the last couple of times we played them. | | | |
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