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THe Old Offside Law 09:38 - Dec 2 with 2366 viewsenfieldargh

Someone correct me (you lot usually do) re the Old Off Side Rules.

I seem to remember one of our players scoring with a screamer of a shot at the loft end from centrally outside the box only for one of our players to be standing in an offside position near the opposite touchline all on his own and was away from the play. This player was flagged offside, goal disallowed.

Would this have been the case way back when?


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THe Old Offside Law on 09:52 - Dec 2 with 2335 viewsfrancisbowles

It's possible. Depends on the officials interpretation of 'interfering with play' or seeking to gain an advantage. Phil Parkes scored with a long drop kick one windy day, only for it to be disallowed because one of the forwards was in an offside position.
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THe Old Offside Law on 10:09 - Dec 2 with 2290 viewsterryb

The classic for me was a goal disallowed against Arsenal in the early '60's.

A corner was headed directly into the goal, but the Arsenal players had all moved forwards leaving the corner taker in an offside position. Offside was given as the corner taker was obviously interfereing with play!

Players were also given offside on a regular basis when they were laying down injured.
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THe Old Offside Law on 10:35 - Dec 2 with 2261 viewscolinallcars

I think it was Danny Blanchflower who said if a player isn't interfering with play, he shouldn't be on the pitch.
Another was, when answering a bland question by an interviewer, “we always try to equalise before the other team does”
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THe Old Offside Law on 12:15 - Dec 2 with 2173 viewsJuzzie

What about our FA Cup final disallowed goal when Gregory (I think) scored and it was disallowed because Stainrod had rolled on the floor and was in no way shape or form doing anything to give us an advantage.

But the ref was bent anyway I reckon. Couldn't have little 'ol QPR beating the grand Liliywhites.
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THe Old Offside Law on 12:18 - Dec 2 with 2158 viewsPinnerPaul

Answering OP, yes that was the case back then.

Will find out a more detailed answer for you in due course.
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THe Old Offside Law on 12:29 - Dec 2 with 2139 viewshantssi

THe Old Offside Law on 12:18 - Dec 2 by PinnerPaul

Answering OP, yes that was the case back then.

Will find out a more detailed answer for you in due course.


Paul, what about the old “day light” rule?
When I played on a Saturday we had a ref but no linos so the ref had to make an informed “guess”, looking back I’d say they got most right.
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THe Old Offside Law on 12:33 - Dec 2 with 2123 viewsPinnerPaul

THe Old Offside Law on 12:29 - Dec 2 by hantssi

Paul, what about the old “day light” rule?
When I played on a Saturday we had a ref but no linos so the ref had to make an informed “guess”, looking back I’d say they got most right.


I think the 'day light' rule is in the book of laws/rules/phrases that never have been in the laws.

Foul throw, high foot, last man......... the list is endless!
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THe Old Offside Law on 13:36 - Dec 2 with 2067 viewsBoston

THe Old Offside Law on 10:35 - Dec 2 by colinallcars

I think it was Danny Blanchflower who said if a player isn't interfering with play, he shouldn't be on the pitch.
Another was, when answering a bland question by an interviewer, “we always try to equalise before the other team does”


“Interfering with play”, that would be Brian Clough.

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THe Old Offside Law on 13:51 - Dec 2 with 2058 viewsPinnerPaul

From 1955
A player in an off-side position shall not be penalised unless,
in the opinion of the Referee, he is interfering with the play or
with an opponent, or is seeking to gain an advantage by being
in an off-side position
From 1930

Off-side.
See Diagrams
Pages
33 to 53 .
Text of the Laws.
LAW 6.
When a player plays the ball, any player of the
same side who at such moment of playing is nearer
to his opponents' goal-line is out of play, and may
not touch the ball himself, nor in any way whatever
interfere with an opponent, or with the play, until
the ball has been again played, unless there are at
such moment of playing at least two of his opponents 0
nearer their own goal-line. A player is not out of
play when the ball is kicked off from goal, when a
corner-kick or a throw-in is taken, when the ball has
been last played by an opponent, or when he himself
is within his own half of the field of play at the
moment the ball is played by any player of the same
side

So interestingly it seems that 'interferes with play or an opponent has always been in the laws.
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:02 - Dec 2 with 2029 viewsJuzzie

THe Old Offside Law on 12:15 - Dec 2 by Juzzie

What about our FA Cup final disallowed goal when Gregory (I think) scored and it was disallowed because Stainrod had rolled on the floor and was in no way shape or form doing anything to give us an advantage.

But the ref was bent anyway I reckon. Couldn't have little 'ol QPR beating the grand Liliywhites.


Found it.... 59 mins in.



It was Micklewhite who 'scored' but I cannot for the life of me see why it was disallowed, even with the laws at the time. I don't want our players to do a 'Norwich' but amazed how they just accepted it.
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:09 - Dec 2 with 2014 viewsRBlock

THe Old Offside Law on 12:33 - Dec 2 by PinnerPaul

I think the 'day light' rule is in the book of laws/rules/phrases that never have been in the laws.

Foul throw, high foot, last man......... the list is endless!


Wait, a foul throw isn't a thing? Surely it's just a casual term for any throw that is not in keeping with the LOG, one foot off the ground, etc.
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:10 - Dec 2 with 2014 viewsterryb

THe Old Offside Law on 13:36 - Dec 2 by Boston

“Interfering with play”, that would be Brian Clough.


It was always quoted as being a Shankleyism. Interestingly, Clough came up with the idea that you can't be sent off as "last man" if you gave away a penalty, as you had not denied a goalscoring opportunity. Referees disagreed!

For whoever it was that mentioned out Cup Final disallowed goal, it was Gary Micklewhite who "scored" it.
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:43 - Dec 2 with 1973 viewsBoston

THe Old Offside Law on 14:10 - Dec 2 by terryb

It was always quoted as being a Shankleyism. Interestingly, Clough came up with the idea that you can't be sent off as "last man" if you gave away a penalty, as you had not denied a goalscoring opportunity. Referees disagreed!

For whoever it was that mentioned out Cup Final disallowed goal, it was Gary Micklewhite who "scored" it.


Indeed I was sure it was a Shankley quote as I swear I’d heard him say it, but a quick wiki gave Clough as the source.

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THe Old Offside Law on 14:44 - Dec 2 with 1971 viewsPinnerPaul

THe Old Offside Law on 14:09 - Dec 2 by RBlock

Wait, a foul throw isn't a thing? Surely it's just a casual term for any throw that is not in keeping with the LOG, one foot off the ground, etc.


Its just me being a ..........................referee - its called an "Incorrectly taken throw in" - not that I expect anyone to shout "That's an incorrectly taken throw in ref"

Same as no ever says "Are you sure about that Assistant Referee?"
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:46 - Dec 2 with 1961 viewsPinnerPaul

THe Old Offside Law on 14:10 - Dec 2 by terryb

It was always quoted as being a Shankleyism. Interestingly, Clough came up with the idea that you can't be sent off as "last man" if you gave away a penalty, as you had not denied a goalscoring opportunity. Referees disagreed!

For whoever it was that mentioned out Cup Final disallowed goal, it was Gary Micklewhite who "scored" it.


Interesting about Brian Clough and the laws have only just caught up with his thinking!
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THe Old Offside Law on 14:56 - Dec 2 with 1942 viewsterryb

THe Old Offside Law on 14:43 - Dec 2 by Boston

Indeed I was sure it was a Shankley quote as I swear I’d heard him say it, but a quick wiki gave Clough as the source.


I'm with you here Boston, I certainly heard William Shankly say it. Who could dispute Wiki though!

Actually, I've just googled the quote & they give it to Clough. The earlier Shankly one is "If a player is on the pitch & not interfering, he should be!"

I would still say that is close enough to give him ownership.
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THe Old Offside Law on 15:12 - Dec 2 with 1922 viewscolinallcars

THe Old Offside Law on 14:43 - Dec 2 by Boston

Indeed I was sure it was a Shankley quote as I swear I’d heard him say it, but a quick wiki gave Clough as the source.


Well, I dunno but I'll swear I heard Danny say it in the sixties.
Danny was a great player, great wit, great man. After hanging up his boots he became manager of Chelsea (boo), but didn't stay long. When asked why he'd left football he said, I didn't, football left me.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2021 16:11]
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THe Old Offside Law on 08:18 - Dec 3 with 1701 viewsTheChef

THe Old Offside Law on 14:02 - Dec 2 by Juzzie

Found it.... 59 mins in.



It was Micklewhite who 'scored' but I cannot for the life of me see why it was disallowed, even with the laws at the time. I don't want our players to do a 'Norwich' but amazed how they just accepted it.


Cheers Juzzie - that's my morning sorted

Few things from that:

- Love the two blokes going mad behind the goal when Fenwick equalised
- Do they still sing Abide With Me at the Cup Final??
- Micklewhite unfortunate but Stainrod does seem to be in the way of the trajectory of the ball so I can see why it was given offside
- Didn't Gregory also score a goal (in the first game?) that was harshly given offside?

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THe Old Offside Law on 09:44 - Dec 3 with 1656 viewsfrancisbowles

THe Old Offside Law on 14:56 - Dec 2 by terryb

I'm with you here Boston, I certainly heard William Shankly say it. Who could dispute Wiki though!

Actually, I've just googled the quote & they give it to Clough. The earlier Shankly one is "If a player is on the pitch & not interfering, he should be!"

I would still say that is close enough to give him ownership.


I'm a bit confused by this. Shankly died in 1981.

The Willie young 'last man' cynical trip was in the 1980 cup final when the laws did not include a red card for such an offence.

The law was subsequently changed two years later, after Shankly had passed. So surely, denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity and penalties didn't become a talking point until after this.
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THe Old Offside Law on 10:00 - Dec 3 with 1649 viewsRBlock

THe Old Offside Law on 14:44 - Dec 2 by PinnerPaul

Its just me being a ..........................referee - its called an "Incorrectly taken throw in" - not that I expect anyone to shout "That's an incorrectly taken throw in ref"

Same as no ever says "Are you sure about that Assistant Referee?"


Why am I not surprised that the ref is also a pedant!
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THe Old Offside Law on 12:23 - Dec 3 with 1586 viewsterryb

THe Old Offside Law on 09:44 - Dec 3 by francisbowles

I'm a bit confused by this. Shankly died in 1981.

The Willie young 'last man' cynical trip was in the 1980 cup final when the laws did not include a red card for such an offence.

The law was subsequently changed two years later, after Shankly had passed. So surely, denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity and penalties didn't become a talking point until after this.


Please reread it FB.

I stated that it was Clough who came up with the idea that awarding a penalty should stop a sending off.

Shankly was the person who I heard talking about players on the pitch interfering with play.
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THe Old Offside Law on 15:18 - Dec 3 with 1494 viewsfrancisbowles

THe Old Offside Law on 12:23 - Dec 3 by terryb

Please reread it FB.

I stated that it was Clough who came up with the idea that awarding a penalty should stop a sending off.

Shankly was the person who I heard talking about players on the pitch interfering with play.


Thank you Terryb. You are correct. I did say I was confused.
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THe Old Offside Law on 11:30 - Dec 5 with 1276 viewsPinnerPaul

For any still interested, here's the comprehensive answer from the resident 'hostorian' on "RefChat"


"It has never, ever been the case in the entire history of the laws of the game that the Law called for a player to be penalised simply for being in an offside position.

Even from the very beginning, the original Laws issued in 1863 did not call for a player who was in an offside position to be penalised, unless he were to ''touch the ball himself or in anyway whatsoever prevent any other player from doing so.''

From then on, down the years there have been several occasions when the law-making authorities have issued specific instructions to referees or included wording in the Laws, to emphasise the point that a player needs to do more than just be in an offside position, to be guilty of an offside offence.

For instance, in 1903 the FA Council issued the following statement: ''It is not a breach of Law for a player simply to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position, he causes the play to be affected.''

In 1910 the FA council stated: ''Some Referees award a free kick when a player is simply in an off-side position. This must not be done.''

The following wording was included in the Laws document in 1920: ''Play should not be stopped and a player given off-side [...] because the player is in an off-side position. A breach of the Law is only committed when a player who is in an offside position interferes with an opponent or with the play.''

On June 14, 1924, an IFAB decision was issued saying: "It is not a breach of the Law for a player to be in an off-side position, but only when in that position he interferes with an opponent, or with the play."

In 1956, another IFAB decision was issued, stating that a player who was in an offside position should not be penalised if it was clear to the referee ''that he is not interfering with play.''

In 1978 the laws stated: ''A player shall not be declared off-side by the Referee [...] merely because of his being in an off-side position.''

And ever since 1997, the very first sentence of the Offside Law has been: ''It is not an offence (in itself) to be in an offside position.''

Now, if you want to argue that there was a time in the 70s and 80s when many officials applied the law as if it was an offence simply to be in an offside position then I would not disagree with you but I hope the various excerpts from the laws, along with the pronouncements from the FA and the IFAB that are given above show that this was never at any time, in either the wording or the intent of the law.

Some of you may remember the (in)famous offside incident in 1971 in the Leeds v West Brom game when referee Ray Tinkler correctly allowed play to continue with Colin Suggett in a clearly offside position but not interfering with play. The decision caused outrage at the time (you can hear it on the YouTube clip below) and there was an ongoing controversy about it for many months if not years. However to my mind, while Tinkler's decision may have been against the way that a large number of referees and linesman were applying the law at the time, it was not against the way the law itself was written, even back then."
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