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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules 10:29 - Dec 5 with 6379 viewsstainrods_elbow

Just finished reading Pat Nevin's charming, counter-cultural and altogether inspiring autobiography (Pat Nevin: The Accidental Footballer, Monoray, 2021). A gem of a winger, a thinker, and a real beating heart to complement a lovely footballing (and non-footballing) brain. Also, he was friends with the greatest British band since, ooh, anyone, viz. Cocteau Twins. Highly recommended.

A propos one of my hobby horses, my eye was caught by this passage on p.190 - Warbs Warbler Warburton and his apologists take note!

'[After a 1-0 away win at Southampton in March 1986] [t]he next day we won the Full Members' Cup Final at Wembley, beating Manchester City 5-4.*

*Yes, it really was the next day. Two games in two days was something the modern footballer wouldn't accept, but it happened on a number of occasions back then. It never seemed to bother me too much. These days on the radio when I am asked about the stress of too many games close together for the current players, I try very hard not to go all Monty Python, with a Yorkshire accent: "Luxury! We played two games in two days, usually on mud heaps or potato fields. At that time I played seven games in fifteen days, GBH wasn't even a yellow card, I played nearly 850 games in my career when the average for a modern player is well under half that and they get paid not far short of Bill Gates's wages, while I had to sofa-surf at the end of every season. And you try telling that to the kids to day and they won't believe you."'

As far as I know, Pat is still walking around normally, so presumably he hasn't suffered any lasting damage from doing his job to such, by contemporary industry standards, extraordinary performance levels. By contrast, the lack of authoritative science, as far as I'm aware, behind what MW has recently been claiming about modern football schedules causing footballers to fall like flies really needs dragging out into the light of day, rather than our perpetuating the modern disease of mistaking assertion for argument.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2021 10:35]

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 11:14 - Dec 5 with 4801 viewsjoe90

Big fan of Nevin and love the Cocteau Twins. It’s a great shame he played for Chelsea. Will definitely check out his book.

Re Morden football schedules, I think it’s accepted that top players play more games than ever, when you include pre-season, international, domestic and European cups. Plus training is far more demanding. There has also been a significant increase in ligament injuries due to modern pitches, footwear and increased tempo of the game compared to the pre 90s. That aside, managers have been complaining about schedules - amongst other things - for ages. I think complaining is just part of being a manger. They’re expected to comment before and after every game, there can’t be that much to talk about!
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 12:10 - Dec 5 with 4709 viewsPinnerPaul

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 11:14 - Dec 5 by joe90

Big fan of Nevin and love the Cocteau Twins. It’s a great shame he played for Chelsea. Will definitely check out his book.

Re Morden football schedules, I think it’s accepted that top players play more games than ever, when you include pre-season, international, domestic and European cups. Plus training is far more demanding. There has also been a significant increase in ligament injuries due to modern pitches, footwear and increased tempo of the game compared to the pre 90s. That aside, managers have been complaining about schedules - amongst other things - for ages. I think complaining is just part of being a manger. They’re expected to comment before and after every game, there can’t be that much to talk about!


Not sure about more games than ever.

Top league has always had more teams than now, domestic cups used to have replays and European competition, internationals and friendlies have always been around!
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 14:22 - Dec 5 with 4590 viewsthemodfather

modern squads are bigger , when liverpool ruled europe, they used around 18 players ! and played 60+ games.
now rotation is almost every game, cup games can be deemed a nuisance and best "out of" ? teams did once play xmas and then boxing day but not that i recall.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:29 - Dec 5 with 4456 viewsozranger

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 14:22 - Dec 5 by themodfather

modern squads are bigger , when liverpool ruled europe, they used around 18 players ! and played 60+ games.
now rotation is almost every game, cup games can be deemed a nuisance and best "out of" ? teams did once play xmas and then boxing day but not that i recall.


60+ try 70+

For seasons: 66-67 QPR played 71 games; 76-77, 72 games (4 friendlies only) and 81-82 some 74 games, although 15 were friendlies. I would be interested to know just how many were in our squad for the 76-77 season.

Also, this season a whole chunk of PL teams have two matches in two days - 26 Dec & 28 Dec and the latter without their AFCON players.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:36 - Dec 5 with 4449 viewscolinallcars

Teams would play Xmas morning, go home for Xmas dinner and some beer and twenty Woodbines. Then play again the next afternoon - Boxing day. In the snow.
I think though that players didn't cover as much ground as players do today.
I'm afraid you'll have to tell me who the Cocteau Twins are.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:38 - Dec 5 with 4446 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Two games in two days also used to happen around Christmas, if I recall correctly.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:43 - Dec 5 with 4442 viewsBoston

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:36 - Dec 5 by colinallcars

Teams would play Xmas morning, go home for Xmas dinner and some beer and twenty Woodbines. Then play again the next afternoon - Boxing day. In the snow.
I think though that players didn't cover as much ground as players do today.
I'm afraid you'll have to tell me who the Cocteau Twins are.


Oh, it's not the cocked-up twins then!

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:44 - Dec 5 with 4441 viewsBoston

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:38 - Dec 5 by BrianMcCarthy

Two games in two days also used to happen around Christmas, if I recall correctly.


Yes.

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 19:12 - Dec 5 with 4405 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 11:14 - Dec 5 by joe90

Big fan of Nevin and love the Cocteau Twins. It’s a great shame he played for Chelsea. Will definitely check out his book.

Re Morden football schedules, I think it’s accepted that top players play more games than ever, when you include pre-season, international, domestic and European cups. Plus training is far more demanding. There has also been a significant increase in ligament injuries due to modern pitches, footwear and increased tempo of the game compared to the pre 90s. That aside, managers have been complaining about schedules - amongst other things - for ages. I think complaining is just part of being a manger. They’re expected to comment before and after every game, there can’t be that much to talk about!


Good post.

Warburton is stating that more games means more injuries. I find it hard to argue with that.

But, like others, I feel that he references this too much. But, as you say, managers like to complain.

P.S. Love The Cocteau Twins. I've always been undecided on Nevin.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 19:48 - Dec 5 with 4353 viewsGloryHunter

Whenever I hear Nick Eardley speak (BBC Political Correspondent) I have to check that it's not really Pat Nevin. Nevin is a brainy guy; I'm sure he could do that job too.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 06:18 - Dec 6 with 4155 viewsstowmarketrange

We played 2 games on consecutive days over Christmas in 1978,but I’m not sure if we’ve done it since then.
The change in the back pass law meant that games speeded up for a few years,as most teams,especially Liverpool would spend half the game passing it back to Ray Clemence under the old law.Or was it half a season?Can you imagine teams like Preston still being allowed to do it now?
So players don’t get as much rest during the games as they used to do in the 70’s and 80’s,although the Stoke players must be well rested after taking it in turns to lay down for a minute or two yesterday.
The pitches are much better today than they ever were back in the old days,and also the fitness regime has improved too.I think a warm down in the pre premier league era consisted of a walk to the players bar or the bookies for Stan.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 00:39 - Dec 7 with 3953 viewsfrancisbowles

Completely overlooks how fast the game is played and how athletic the players are. Rest is an important part of an athletes schedule. How many races do top track athletes have in a season and how long is their pre season training?

Cloughie's European cup winners rarely trained, the number of matches they played was enough for them to be fit enough for football in that era. BC was an early adopter of rest being important.

Nowadays, the game is far more intense and the players are much fitter. The warm down for the unused subs would be an intense training session for the 1970s players. Lol
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 01:04 - Dec 7 with 3947 viewsNorthernr

I mean I should interject here with my usual response of IT'S NOT 1976 ANY MORE.

Instead, I'll say that Pat Nevin let down his self-styled intelligent, erudite, "not just your usual thick footballer", schtick when he went out of his way to defend, and continued to dig down and down and down and down to back up, John Terry for his racism, shagging a team mate's wife, kicking a bloke in the back, staging a set piece departure from his final game, and everything else, because he's "Chels" and like everybody else at Chelsea he was blinded by the 'captain leader legend' bolox. Loves to trade off how anti-racist he was in the 80s, how much he backed Paul Canoville against the grain, loves the story about the black bloke in the van driving past and giving him the thumbs up and explaining to his wife why that is... and yet.... John Terry, can do no wrong in his eyes. Was on FiveLive every night of the week explaining why John's great really, and actually we're just all wrong about him.

Google 'Pat Nevin John Terry'. Results from page one...

Chelsea legend Pat Nevin slams media bias over John Terry
Nevin: John Terry a Chelsea 'legend' and always will be
Pat Nevin was a talented, expressive forward, most notably for Chelsea, ... are fascinating, he think John Terry will be an elite manager.
Two Chelsea legends have described John Terry as a misunderstood ...


A shame because like you I find him very good to listen to on other issues, but his Chelsea bias just absolutely killed him when it came to Terry.

This post has been edited by an administrator
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 07:29 - Dec 7 with 3822 viewsPlanetHonneywood

We should also factor in a few differences between then and now:

1. They often played on quagmires compared to today’s billiard tables;

2. There was often tackles that today would see cards littered like confetti and bans left, right and centre;

3. Players often drank like fish and ate anything like the ‘athletes’ of today;

4. The balls were heavier;

5. Players were often cortisone’d up to the eyeballs.

'Always In Motion' by John Honney available on amazon.co.uk Nous sommes L’occitane Rs!
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 13:55 - Dec 7 with 3719 viewsstainrods_elbow

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 01:04 - Dec 7 by Northernr

I mean I should interject here with my usual response of IT'S NOT 1976 ANY MORE.

Instead, I'll say that Pat Nevin let down his self-styled intelligent, erudite, "not just your usual thick footballer", schtick when he went out of his way to defend, and continued to dig down and down and down and down to back up, John Terry for his racism, shagging a team mate's wife, kicking a bloke in the back, staging a set piece departure from his final game, and everything else, because he's "Chels" and like everybody else at Chelsea he was blinded by the 'captain leader legend' bolox. Loves to trade off how anti-racist he was in the 80s, how much he backed Paul Canoville against the grain, loves the story about the black bloke in the van driving past and giving him the thumbs up and explaining to his wife why that is... and yet.... John Terry, can do no wrong in his eyes. Was on FiveLive every night of the week explaining why John's great really, and actually we're just all wrong about him.

Google 'Pat Nevin John Terry'. Results from page one...

Chelsea legend Pat Nevin slams media bias over John Terry
Nevin: John Terry a Chelsea 'legend' and always will be
Pat Nevin was a talented, expressive forward, most notably for Chelsea, ... are fascinating, he think John Terry will be an elite manager.
Two Chelsea legends have described John Terry as a misunderstood ...


A shame because like you I find him very good to listen to on other issues, but his Chelsea bias just absolutely killed him when it came to Terry.

This post has been edited by an administrator


Nevin played through the 80s to the late 90s, so 1976 is a red herring. The relative pace of the game now is also over-stated, especially when you factor in all the timewasting, simulation and feigned injuries etc. you see now. I've watched lots of QPR and pro football across six decades, and expectations are far more professionally down-managed than they were. Btw, I'd also say Nevin was as fit or fitter than any modern player, whose incredibly dedicated training approach he details impressively in the biog.

Nevin's refusal to conform to any groupthink or shared assumptions, on Terry or anything else, shines out of his every pore. He actually goes out of his way to make it clear that he has never said he thinks Terry is a great person, and actually expected to dislike him. I'd listen to his view over most on pretty much any football-related topic. Although Terry does seem like a possibly racist c*nt, and tends to fulfil the role for us of pantomime villain, the danger is we just replicate the anti-Terry psychosis that is the polarised mirror of some of Chelsea's abject protectionism. At the same time, to implicitly compare Nevin's thoughts with the likes of Ashley Cole's apologism is badly awry.

Overall, and to play devil's advocate (against myself, as much as anyone), and since Nevin's considered view is the outcome of knowing Terry professionally and personally, I'd say his thoughts carry rather more weight than any of us fans, who tend to see a biased, agenda-drive, by definition fanatical image from the outside, not a complex albeit seeminlgly unappealing individual we love to hate.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 14:01]

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 14:39 - Dec 7 with 3664 viewsdaveB

It's not just warburton who talks about current football schedule. Pep, Klopp, Tuchel and Moyes have all spoken about it over the weekend. Look around at how many injuries every club are having not big long term ones niggly ones that keep them out for 3/4 weeks. Just because playing every few days worked for some players in the 80's doesn't mean we should still be doing it now.
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 15:04 - Dec 7 with 3627 viewskensalriser

Weird lot, Chelsea. World beating cognitive dissonance. Had quite an entertaining round of argy bargy with a very vocally left wing, anti racist etc Chelser on another (non football) forum recently and true to form his football club trumped his ideals. Couldn’t see it, wouldn’t have it, was found not guilty in a court of law, all the usual nonsense.

10-12 years ago a young woman who was a colleague at the time told me her friend had met Terry and shortly afterwards received an unsolicited dick pic. Just her word of course, but you know, if the cap fits.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 15:05]

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 15:21 - Dec 7 with 3578 viewsShadow

Played the next day because the Football League refused to move the fixtures the day before as they subsequently would for the Full Members/ZDS. Originally scheduled as a two-legged final but Ken Bates promised the Chelsea team a day out at Wembley if they reached it and effectively hired the stadium for the day.

Man City, btw, played Man Utd the day before.

I went with my Chelsea supporting family and it was a mad match with Chelsea leading 5-1 at one point but it could have been 6-6 by that stage. Loads of trouble before, during and after the match.

Chelsea sold about 45,000 tickets and became the latest, though not the last, to insist that they had sold the most tickets to a Wembley final. A claim we would eventually, also wrongly, claim*

The record is probably held by Liverpool who it is reckoned brought around 75,000 to the 1988 FA Cup final although some claim that up to 90,000 East Londoners made their way to Wembley in 1923.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 15:28]
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 15:58 - Dec 7 with 3500 viewsMrSheen

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 15:04 - Dec 7 by kensalriser

Weird lot, Chelsea. World beating cognitive dissonance. Had quite an entertaining round of argy bargy with a very vocally left wing, anti racist etc Chelser on another (non football) forum recently and true to form his football club trumped his ideals. Couldn’t see it, wouldn’t have it, was found not guilty in a court of law, all the usual nonsense.

10-12 years ago a young woman who was a colleague at the time told me her friend had met Terry and shortly afterwards received an unsolicited dick pic. Just her word of course, but you know, if the cap fits.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 15:05]


Your Terry story reminds me of a work colleague who came back from a holiday in Marbella about 1992 talking about a night out in (Wayne) Lineker's bar. Gary was there, and wouldn't leave a woman they were with alone all night, despite polite refusal, point-blank rejection and even outright threats from her friends. No-one believed him at the time, lovely Gary, lovely Michelle, his lovely family, but we all know better now. A lot of professional footballers thrive on unbending, selfish, self-confidence, which adulation only reinforces.

On Nevin, I don't doubt he was horrified by a lot of what he saw and heard, but also felt excitement and loyalty to the club that had given him fame and a bit of fortune. So he turned a deaf ear where he had to, to what happened in the stands and on the training pitch (Gwyn WIlliams?), and convinced himself that he was one of the good guys, though he stayed on when Paul Canoville was forced out after fighting back against abuse from a more valuable player (KD?), then later moved to, of all people, Everton, for another hearing-impaired love-affair. After all, in his own words:
"Chelsea is not in any way a racist club. Everton is not a racist club."
No surprise he kept his side jobs after telling the world that after all that happened.

What really makes me laugh is the attitude of fans like these, who were able to tolerate the racism, hatred and violence, but were eventually put off by the money.
https://www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk/issue-8/nevin-rolls-back-the-chelsea-years/
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 16:01 - Dec 7 with 3486 viewsBostonR

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 15:04 - Dec 7 by kensalriser

Weird lot, Chelsea. World beating cognitive dissonance. Had quite an entertaining round of argy bargy with a very vocally left wing, anti racist etc Chelser on another (non football) forum recently and true to form his football club trumped his ideals. Couldn’t see it, wouldn’t have it, was found not guilty in a court of law, all the usual nonsense.

10-12 years ago a young woman who was a colleague at the time told me her friend had met Terry and shortly afterwards received an unsolicited dick pic. Just her word of course, but you know, if the cap fits.
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 15:05]


Terry was at it 20yrs ago. Good footballer but a horrible human being.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/aug/22/newsstory.sport15
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:20 - Dec 7 with 3405 viewsdezzar

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 16:01 - Dec 7 by BostonR

Terry was at it 20yrs ago. Good footballer but a horrible human being.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/aug/22/newsstory.sport15


Liked Nevin for his love of music , especially Cocteau Twins , but his love of Chelsea tainted it for mr .
Anyone at Tranmere away when he received loads of abuse while warming up at half time , probs late nineties, but he came over and chatted to a few Rangers lads , respected him for that 😀
[Post edited 8 Dec 2021 0:12]
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:25 - Dec 7 with 3391 viewsdezzar

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:20 - Dec 7 by dezzar

Liked Nevin for his love of music , especially Cocteau Twins , but his love of Chelsea tainted it for mr .
Anyone at Tranmere away when he received loads of abuse while warming up at half time , probs late nineties, but he came over and chatted to a few Rangers lads , respected him for that 😀
[Post edited 8 Dec 2021 0:12]


Just read Northerns post if his defence of Terry is true
Then I have no respect for Nevin
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 19:42 - Dec 7 with 3334 viewsdezzar

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:25 - Dec 7 by dezzar

Just read Northerns post if his defence of Terry is true
Then I have no respect for Nevin


Summerhead
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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 22:12 - Dec 7 with 3261 viewsstainrods_elbow

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 18:25 - Dec 7 by dezzar

Just read Northerns post if his defence of Terry is true
Then I have no respect for Nevin


O dear - that's exactly the kind of black and white thinking (not in the racial/racist sense) into which my post was trying to introduce at least a soupcon of nuance!

Never mind, I guess!

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Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 22:18 - Dec 7 with 3250 viewsstainrods_elbow

Pat Nevin biog: a reality check on modern football schedules on 16:01 - Dec 7 by BostonR

Terry was at it 20yrs ago. Good footballer but a horrible human being.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2002/aug/22/newsstory.sport15


Zowee - footballer embroiled in nightclub fracas! Like that never happens!

Unfortunately for your argument (or rather assertion) - it appears my devils's advocacy seems to be becoming more satanic by the hour - Terry was actually found not guilty.

What a weird thread this is mutating into - I find myself steamrollered/ignored just for suggesting that there might (just might - I don't know, and nor does anyone here) be more to Terry than meets the eye, while Clive censures Nevin (one of a tiny handful, as he acknoweledges, who spoke up for Paul Canoville) for, apparently, not being anti-racist enough while at Chelsea, as though he were complicitously responsible for the likes of Gwyn Williams.

So much for (self-) critical thinking!
[Post edited 7 Dec 2021 22:21]

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