| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow 10:02 - Nov 20 with 4072 views | johnlangy |
On Newsnight last night there were Labour, Lib Dem and Tory MP's discussing the possible outcomes of next week's budget. The Tory MP confirmed yet again why I haven't listened seriously to a word they've said since being kicked out of office.
They (the Tories) argue against tax rises. They say that the tax take in this country is far too high. They also argue against borrowing saying the nation can't simply borrow its way forward because that debt has to be repaid at some point. So that leaves cutting government expenditure.
While making one point she criticised the Labour MP for referring back to the mess the Conservatives had left behind in 2024 saying what's important is the situation we are in now forgetting that five minutes before she had criticised Labour for the mess they had left behind in 2010. The stupidity just baffles me.
When the Conservatives were in power after 2010 they introduced austerity by massively cutting government expenditure. This resulted in all the pillars of a civilised country being ruined. The health service, education, policing and justice and a massive 40% decrease in local government funding.
So in 2010, of the three options they took the cut spending option which, by their logic, would mean no rise in taxes or borrowing. WRONG. At the same time as cutting spending they massively tripled the UK national debt from around £900 billion to almost £3 trillion.
I'm sure someone will mention Covid borrowing but that would only account for around a fifth of the extra they loaded onto the national debt during their disastrous fourteen years in office. |  | | |  |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:18 - Nov 20 with 2481 views | Dr_Winston |
It's important to differentiate between tax take and tax rates.
Tax take is clearly too low or we wouldn't be running deficits to the point where it costs around £100Bn a year just to service the National Debt. Tax rates are clearly too high at present which is why unemployment is rising, and capital and investment are fleeing to more sensible countries.
The simple fact is that if we're going to get out of this mess we need to both reduce Government spending and increase the amount of tax we raise. Time and time again it's been proven that punitive tax rates are counter productive, yet all Reeves wants to do is increase them. It's economic illiteracy. Taxes on employment need to be cut. Taxes on entrepreneurship need to be cut. We need to massively grow the private sector in this country, because that's what pays for everything else.
Massive cuts need to be made to welfare costs, especially when it comes to sickness related payments. Unnecessary commitments to lunacy like the Chagos deal need to be killed stone dead. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:10 - Nov 20 with 2445 views | AnotherJohn |
Without letting any of the political parties off the hook, a few additional factors need to be considered.
The downside of state debt is not just that somebody has to pay it back in the future, but that debt interest payments consume a significant portion of tax receipts and other government income, meaning that less money is available for current public expenditure. More borrowing also generally leads to higher interest rates on debt.
Main drivers of rising public debt in the last 20 years:
- the financial crisis, with 28 per cent of GDP added between 2007-08 and 2009-10;
- pandemic, with 14 per cent of GDP added between 2018-19 and 2020-21;
- other external shocks which include costs associated with Brexit, rising energy prices linked to the Ukraine war and government subsidies to control bills, higher transport costs in wake of pandemic. These shocks interacted with the direct impact of the pandemic.
Other points
Austerity in the 2010-15 period occurred under a Tory/Lib Dem coalition government which claimed to be addressing the sharp rise in public debt linked to the financial crisis – remember the Lib Dem’s “Orange Book” group.
Labour in opposition called for even higher public spending and cushioning of the public from the impact of the above shocks than were actioned by the Conservative Government.
After 2015 the Conservative Government relaxed austerity and arguably spent too much on welfare.
Under the current Labour Government, UK gross public debt rose from £2.53 trillion in July 2024 to about £2.71 trillion now. It rose from 85.7% of GDP pre-COVID in 2019 to over 100% now.
The UK can probably cope with a higher level of state debt than many EU countries because it retains its own currency and central bank, but once debt exceeds 100% of GDP things get dicey. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 16:53 - Nov 20 with 2367 views | max936 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:18 - Nov 20 by Dr_Winston |
It's important to differentiate between tax take and tax rates.
Tax take is clearly too low or we wouldn't be running deficits to the point where it costs around £100Bn a year just to service the National Debt. Tax rates are clearly too high at present which is why unemployment is rising, and capital and investment are fleeing to more sensible countries.
The simple fact is that if we're going to get out of this mess we need to both reduce Government spending and increase the amount of tax we raise. Time and time again it's been proven that punitive tax rates are counter productive, yet all Reeves wants to do is increase them. It's economic illiteracy. Taxes on employment need to be cut. Taxes on entrepreneurship need to be cut. We need to massively grow the private sector in this country, because that's what pays for everything else.
Massive cuts need to be made to welfare costs, especially when it comes to sickness related payments. Unnecessary commitments to lunacy like the Chagos deal need to be killed stone dead. |
Starmer needs to stop giving billions away that would help in decreasing the debt. |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 21:00 - Nov 20 with 2318 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
The amount of debt we are carrying can be traced back to the 2008 banking crisis when a stupid idiot called Gordon Brown bailed out the banks without recourse, just remind yourself when the banking profit figures come out of just how much money was thrown at the banks without any recourse. COVID topped it up, but Starmer wanted to spend more!!!
The UK is on a burning platform when it comes to debt, the longer we leave it the worse it gets. Reeves will bring in a range of tax measures that people will try to avoid and she will be back next year for more.
The last lot were incorrigible and this lot are incompetent. |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 02:03 - Nov 21 with 2255 views | Robbie |
Irrelevant of past mistakes by so many Politicians , Truss and Kwarteng in an instant .
The blame game has got to be stopped , finger pointing will will get boring after a while .
This Government is , much as I dislike Starmer has nowhere to turn . apart from the decent Pensioners with a few quid in the kitty for a decent add on which I wanted to pass on to my children , more tax on my hard earned again .
A neutral report on BBC News yesterday stated a Businessman and entrepener is leaving the UK soon over tax hikes for his firm .
Without figures to my limited knowledge , hotels and Illegals are front and centre of just where am my PAYE contributions going too , maybe in the wrong direction I want .
Schoolchildren in my locality in Portocabins , temporary but 3 years too late now for that excuse anymore .
And a Main Road surface outside my house which is now falling apart for Drivers . | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 07:25 - Nov 21 with 2216 views | builthjack |
This didn’t start happening in the last 16 months folks.
Some people think it did, but it didn’t. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:04 - Nov 21 with 2199 views | Boundy |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 07:25 - Nov 21 by builthjack |
This didn’t start happening in the last 16 months folks.
Some people think it did, but it didn’t. |
Strange then that Labour are carrying it on , a political party normally does the opposite to the previous administration when it comes into power and yet now we can look forward to more of the same ,maybe all parties lie to the people , now there's a novel idea. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:15 - Nov 21 with 2194 views | Boundy |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 02:03 - Nov 21 by Robbie |
Irrelevant of past mistakes by so many Politicians , Truss and Kwarteng in an instant .
The blame game has got to be stopped , finger pointing will will get boring after a while .
This Government is , much as I dislike Starmer has nowhere to turn . apart from the decent Pensioners with a few quid in the kitty for a decent add on which I wanted to pass on to my children , more tax on my hard earned again .
A neutral report on BBC News yesterday stated a Businessman and entrepener is leaving the UK soon over tax hikes for his firm .
Without figures to my limited knowledge , hotels and Illegals are front and centre of just where am my PAYE contributions going too , maybe in the wrong direction I want .
Schoolchildren in my locality in Portocabins , temporary but 3 years too late now for that excuse anymore .
And a Main Road surface outside my house which is now falling apart for Drivers . |
A simple analogy ,
You have 5 people one works and pays taxes ,
4 people on benefits, so as a labour government you tax the working person to the hilt to pay the for the other 4's benefits, labour lose one voter but gain 4 ,why do you think Blairs open door policy was a key feature during his and Browns governments.
We must be the only country in the world which actively and publicly encourage illegal migration ,and the rest of the world laugh. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:18 - Nov 21 with 2186 views | hobo |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 16:53 - Nov 20 by max936 |
Starmer needs to stop giving billions away that would help in decreasing the debt. |
We seem to have a bottomless money pit whenever Zelensky flies in on his private jet. Appx £25 billion given away to Ukraine |  | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:25 - Nov 21 with 2178 views | Boundy |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:18 - Nov 21 by hobo |
We seem to have a bottomless money pit whenever Zelensky flies in on his private jet. Appx £25 billion given away to Ukraine |
How much would it cost the UK if we had to fall into the trap of fighting Russia, maybe this way is the better of the two evils , let Ukraine do the fighting on behalf of the west? | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:21 - Nov 21 with 2116 views | onehunglow |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:15 - Nov 21 by Boundy |
A simple analogy ,
You have 5 people one works and pays taxes ,
4 people on benefits, so as a labour government you tax the working person to the hilt to pay the for the other 4's benefits, labour lose one voter but gain 4 ,why do you think Blairs open door policy was a key feature during his and Browns governments.
We must be the only country in the world which actively and publicly encourage illegal migration ,and the rest of the world laugh. |
I think the middle classes have a guilt complex over our colonial days and feel we have a duty to let them in ALL of them
We have those actually boasting about us being a sanctuary in Wales, the poorest part of the UK
And why? To sate the likes of lovely Leanne and Rhun of iorworth s political ideals
We need to get them out and give nothing at all to illegals . Nothing
We need to look after our own | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:46 - Nov 21 with 2089 views | Dr_Winston |
But yeah. Make them pay their fair share. Or something.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2n215nqvyo | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:52 - Nov 21 with 2052 views | Whiterockin |
How many jobs will this cost. I await answers from the stupid on here who think heavily taxing companies and the well to benifit the less well off is the answer. There has to be a balanced approach or the UK economy will completely collapse. |  | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:55 - Nov 21 with 2037 views | trampie |
Property prices need to come down, energy prices need to come down and we need a wealth tax, how the first two can be achieved when Thatcher sold off the housing stock and our nationalised industries is problematic. |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:16 - Nov 21 with 2035 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:52 - Nov 21 by Whiterockin |
How many jobs will this cost. I await answers from the stupid on here who think heavily taxing companies and the well to benifit the less well off is the answer. There has to be a balanced approach or the UK economy will completely collapse. |
Too many people who have no experience of the commercial world, including the cabinet, making up policy. Not every company is like Amazon, most companies are small businesses with pretty thin margins.
However, if you read the Resolution Foundation vision for 2030, you'll see that people running it, who have been in the public sector for their working lives, think that businesses are ripe for more taxation. | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:32 - Nov 21 with 2019 views | Whiterockin |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:16 - Nov 21 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Too many people who have no experience of the commercial world, including the cabinet, making up policy. Not every company is like Amazon, most companies are small businesses with pretty thin margins.
However, if you read the Resolution Foundation vision for 2030, you'll see that people running it, who have been in the public sector for their working lives, think that businesses are ripe for more taxation. |
As I say there needs to be a balanced approach. One that not only increases the tax revenue but also enables businesses to develop, employ and expand not contract. Do I have the answer no because I have no experience of running a multi national company, but what I do know from running smaller companies is if you squeeze to tightly to quickly the government will actually receive less in taxation. [Post edited 21 Nov 13:08]
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 13:20 - Nov 21 with 1977 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:32 - Nov 21 by Whiterockin |
As I say there needs to be a balanced approach. One that not only increases the tax revenue but also enables businesses to develop, employ and expand not contract. Do I have the answer no because I have no experience of running a multi national company, but what I do know from running smaller companies is if you squeeze to tightly to quickly the government will actually receive less in taxation. [Post edited 21 Nov 13:08]
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The accounting rules in the UK are almost as complicated as the tax code, thrown in the opportunities to report differently for multi national companies and you can see how difficult it is to really squeeze large corporations. | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 21:10 - Nov 21 with 1875 views | max936 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 08:25 - Nov 21 by Boundy |
How much would it cost the UK if we had to fall into the trap of fighting Russia, maybe this way is the better of the two evils , let Ukraine do the fighting on behalf of the west? |
I'm somewhat thinking along those lines, although with a Russian Spy ship hoovering around our waters its a worry, when a Labour defense minister says that the Uk is ready, ready for what, we can't sort out as to what's going on in this country let alone take on a super nuclear power like Russia, his he banking on Trump coming to Britain's aid, I don't think so. | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 01:40 - Nov 22 with 1822 views | Robbie |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 21:10 - Nov 21 by max936 |
I'm somewhat thinking along those lines, although with a Russian Spy ship hoovering around our waters its a worry, when a Labour defense minister says that the Uk is ready, ready for what, we can't sort out as to what's going on in this country let alone take on a super nuclear power like Russia, his he banking on Trump coming to Britain's aid, I don't think so. |
The Don is washing his hands over the NATO treaty , UK must pay more into Defence costs as we do over here in the US , otherwise we are out of here as a Pact .
Rach from Accounts will now try and appease the POTUS and put public hard earned taxes into the Defence budget instead of looking after honest UK folk , a Labour doctrine past .
Nobel Peace prize awaits the architect of an end to the horror killings in Ukraine .
Two guys at the top table ready to lap up the applause when if ever , peace is achieved . | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 09:33 - Nov 22 with 1733 views | Boundy |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 21:10 - Nov 21 by max936 |
I'm somewhat thinking along those lines, although with a Russian Spy ship hoovering around our waters its a worry, when a Labour defense minister says that the Uk is ready, ready for what, we can't sort out as to what's going on in this country let alone take on a super nuclear power like Russia, his he banking on Trump coming to Britain's aid, I don't think so. |
The Russians always seem to be attracted to our shore line , in the 70s we even on Salisbury Plain with basic HF sets could listen in on their "trawlers" so nothing new in that respect and the fear of WW3 was pretty high then and we survived but this Putin is on another level ,the gripes he has against the fall of the USSR and subsequent internal problems show he maybe well capable of going a step too far. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 09:45 - Nov 22 with 1723 views | onehunglow |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 21:10 - Nov 21 by max936 |
I'm somewhat thinking along those lines, although with a Russian Spy ship hoovering around our waters its a worry, when a Labour defense minister says that the Uk is ready, ready for what, we can't sort out as to what's going on in this country let alone take on a super nuclear power like Russia, his he banking on Trump coming to Britain's aid, I don't think so. |
Russia has always been at war with us
People need to understand that
Vile people vile country | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 09:49 - Nov 23 with 1553 views | trampie |
That guy is not British he is a foreigner, an economic migrant, a non dom, he doesn't pay UK taxes on his overseas busineses, how many steel works does he have in the UK ?, his business were competitors to the British Steel industry, which he has as a competitor basically helped to see off. | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:06 - Nov 23 with 1514 views | AnotherJohn |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 09:49 - Nov 23 by trampie |
That guy is not British he is a foreigner, an economic migrant, a non dom, he doesn't pay UK taxes on his overseas busineses, how many steel works does he have in the UK ?, his business were competitors to the British Steel industry, which he has as a competitor basically helped to see off. |
The article suggests that inheritance tax was the main concern. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:08 - Nov 23 with 1512 views | Dr_Winston |
And now we see the child benefit cap lifted, which could result in some families trousering thousands a year more in taxpayers cash.
Lunacy. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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