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A horrible political decade, the 1980s. Northern towns and cities allowed to decline while in the south-east bankers, property developers and other assorted spivs filled their boots with cash. Sucking up to Reagan abroad. Murdoch's "Sun" the megaphone for a Tory party bent on selling off gas, water, electricity etc (now much foreign-owned). By 1990 even her own party was sick of her, and replaced her with ............... John Major!
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Second greatest leader of that century, after Churchill. She polarised opinion. I remember being proud to be British.
And you would advocate a return to the state run monoliths of the seventies would you? Nationalised industries deny competition. As much as I despise our current crop of energy suppliers I believe our current energy supplies would be more expensive without any competition in the market place.
There is no proper marketplace in the ex nationalised industries due to price fixing and lack of regulation with any teeth.
I just wish the current mob would sort out crime and bring back capital punishment for murders, rapists, kiddie fiddlers, terrorists and so on.
It's all opinions young man. She was as crooked and bent as the current mob.
Fine she is dead but that does not wipe the slate clean for all the crap and privatisation she was at fault for.
I know you want to go down the "don't speak ill of the dead" route but my views on that woman are unchanged.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
I'm not a "don't speak ill of the dead-er" I'm far too irreverent for that
What I can't abide is people whose views are formed from hearsay, received opinion, their parents politics and downright ignorance.
If you've got sincerely held views on Thatcher, formed from your own life experience and from living through the era from before she came on the scene and transformed the country as I did, then I'd respect them; there are too many who simply follow the crowd and post trash because they think that's what everyone else thinks.
I guess the poster who thought R17ALE was going to be in a minority of one is a prime example, and must be rather puzzled tonight!
And you would advocate a return to the state run monoliths of the seventies would you? Nationalised industries deny competition. As much as I despise our current crop of energy suppliers I believe our current energy supplies would be more expensive without any competition in the market place.
I have to disagree. I'm no lefty by any stretch, and I think Scargill was and is a vvanker. But how short sighted was completely closing the coal mines? They weren't sold on properly, they weren't temporarily closed - they were filled in for good. A policy bourne out of a pure hatred for trade unionism. Don't forget we had huge reserves of gas sold off too. We're now importing coal and gas from abroad at inflated prices. Cheaper? It would be if we were producing our own.
I have to disagree. I'm no lefty by any stretch, and I think Scargill was and is a vvanker. But how short sighted was completely closing the coal mines? They weren't sold on properly, they weren't temporarily closed - they were filled in for good. A policy bourne out of a pure hatred for trade unionism. Don't forget we had huge reserves of gas sold off too. We're now importing coal and gas from abroad at inflated prices. Cheaper? It would be if we were producing our own.
It was more simple than that. It became cheaper to import coal than produce it here, and the wage demands of the miners (who did a tremendous job for this country and for themselves and their families for many decades) would have made it even more uncompetitive to produce.
I'm not a "don't speak ill of the dead-er" I'm far too irreverent for that
What I can't abide is people whose views are formed from hearsay, received opinion, their parents politics and downright ignorance.
If you've got sincerely held views on Thatcher, formed from your own life experience and from living through the era from before she came on the scene and transformed the country as I did, then I'd respect them; there are too many who simply follow the crowd and post trash because they think that's what everyone else thinks.
I guess the poster who thought R17ALE was going to be in a minority of one is a prime example, and must be rather puzzled tonight!
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Her defence cuts caused the Falklands invasion, the winning of this war saved the most unpopular PM that century from certain electoral defeat. Her war on unions was an ego battle with the equally egotistical idiot Scargill. There is nothing wrong with Trade Unions, have always enjoyed working with them as an employer. She was utterly deluded about Britain's position on the world stage, cabinet papers from the US show she was a laughing stock. She laid the foundations for boom and bust and the rise of the financial services industry as a mass employer at the expense of manufacturing. Meanwhile, Germany, our oft vanquished enemy, sat back and chortled. She left office with the country in almost as much shit as she had inherited. Buy shares in the denationalisation programme, sell them the next day to corporations who eventually would screw your daily tariff, because those that she enfranchised could not manage money, the debt collectors getting richer, the negative equities fookin' up families. A plethora of service industries looking to service an economy with no work for them. She was right to try to change the country from the mess of the 1970's, she was just too extreme. She is not on her own in culpability for the demise of Great Britain
Her defence cuts caused the Falklands invasion, the winning of this war saved the most unpopular PM that century from certain electoral defeat. Her war on unions was an ego battle with the equally egotistical idiot Scargill. There is nothing wrong with Trade Unions, have always enjoyed working with them as an employer. She was utterly deluded about Britain's position on the world stage, cabinet papers from the US show she was a laughing stock. She laid the foundations for boom and bust and the rise of the financial services industry as a mass employer at the expense of manufacturing. Meanwhile, Germany, our oft vanquished enemy, sat back and chortled. She left office with the country in almost as much shit as she had inherited. Buy shares in the denationalisation programme, sell them the next day to corporations who eventually would screw your daily tariff, because those that she enfranchised could not manage money, the debt collectors getting richer, the negative equities fookin' up families. A plethora of service industries looking to service an economy with no work for them. She was right to try to change the country from the mess of the 1970's, she was just too extreme. She is not on her own in culpability for the demise of Great Britain
"Her defence cuts caused the Falklands invasion"
Chortle!
Well I know where you're coming from (i.e. the Argies thought we wouldn't defend the Falklands) but as a twisting of history that's up there with "Saddam's got WMD"
Boom and bust had been a feature of the UK (and many another) economy since well before Thatcherism - until Gordy abolished it of course.
I'm not a "don't speak ill of the dead-er" I'm far too irreverent for that
What I can't abide is people whose views are formed from hearsay, received opinion, their parents politics and downright ignorance.
If you've got sincerely held views on Thatcher, formed from your own life experience and from living through the era from before she came on the scene and transformed the country as I did, then I'd respect them; there are too many who simply follow the crowd and post trash because they think that's what everyone else thinks.
I guess the poster who thought R17ALE was going to be in a minority of one is a prime example, and must be rather puzzled tonight!
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Having some Welsh in me (I usually deny it), I know from my own relatives exactly what damage she did to their community which heavily employed in the mining of coal and slate. They were dumped on from a great height with little or no support or investment to back up the pit closures.
Well I know where you're coming from (i.e. the Argies thought we wouldn't defend the Falklands) but as a twisting of history that's up there with "Saddam's got WMD"
Boom and bust had been a feature of the UK (and many another) economy since well before Thatcherism - until Gordy abolished it of course.
Apart from that, you might have a point or two!
Perhaps the notices recently released by the then chief of Admiralty have escaped your notice?
The succession of governments who have failed to manage economic cycles is a given, that's why we change them. Not because someone else has the answer, because the current lot are shit. That's what happens. Brown was a nightmare.
When will someone have the balls to realise that we are so fookin' insular, so absolutely weak that we need a totally different model?
Poll tax, anybody? The single, most massively unpopular decision ever.
Having some Welsh in me (I usually deny it), I know from my own relatives exactly what damage she did to their community which heavily employed in the mining of coal and slate. They were dumped on from a great height with little or no support or investment to back up the pit closures.
And I have some sympathy for that view.
However, when you have union leaders who chose to use wage demands as a means of projecting their own political power (and mining is a dangerous and back-breaking way of earning a living) it wasn't so much that the miners were dumped on from a great height but from a source much closer to home.
Perhaps the notices recently released by the then chief of Admiralty have escaped your notice?
The succession of governments who have failed to manage economic cycles is a given, that's why we change them. Not because someone else has the answer, because the current lot are shit. That's what happens. Brown was a nightmare.
When will someone have the balls to realise that we are so fookin' insular, so absolutely weak that we need a totally different model?
Poll tax, anybody? The single, most massively unpopular decision ever.
The notices released recently are irrelevant - it was pretty much common knowledge at the time that we'd badly misjudged the noises coming from Argentina.
I completely agree with your point about trying to bat above our place in the world batting order. What we desperately needed in 1979 however was to stop looking backwards at a lost empire and start looking forward to using what skills and resources we have to find our rightful place in the world. That's partly what Thatcherism was about.
I'm sure everyone will agree to disagree here (grabs tin hat)
I've always blamed the 'easy money' culture on her. I don't think it was good for us. Nowadays everyone here answers phones but nobody actually makes them. Some of the best engineers in the world are British but there's no car industry. When getting unions in line something went wrong somewhere.
Agree on 'easy money' angle. Deregulation has brought all sorts of weather. Some of it sunny. Lot of rain and more to come admitted.
It'll take a long time to digest the whole Thatcher thing and its/her legacy. We'll be long dead too when its done, (never). She's probably not particularly important in the scheme of things. You can't rein in the force that is the free market that Adam Smith described in the 18C. Politicians ride waves. Try being a Labour leader? No, I don't fancy it either.
But on the car industry, we make more cars now in the UK than we did in the 'heydays' of the 50s. Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
NB people do make phones, just not in the OL12 area.
I have to disagree. I'm no lefty by any stretch, and I think Scargill was and is a vvanker. But how short sighted was completely closing the coal mines? They weren't sold on properly, they weren't temporarily closed - they were filled in for good. A policy bourne out of a pure hatred for trade unionism. Don't forget we had huge reserves of gas sold off too. We're now importing coal and gas from abroad at inflated prices. Cheaper? It would be if we were producing our own.
Great point, (I mean that sincerely).
But, price of coal now essentially same in principle as the price of the Costa latte you drink on your way to work. Production of coal and coffee where and how and at what price is beyond your, mine and any government or any semi federal collection of governments control.
If you want to reopen a coal mine in Derbyshire then I'd love it. Or grow coffee in Lancashire. I'll join you. Let's get the TV rights sorted first. 'The Mine'-ITV.
The notices released recently are irrelevant - it was pretty much common knowledge at the time that we'd badly misjudged the noises coming from Argentina.
I completely agree with your point about trying to bat above our place in the world batting order. What we desperately needed in 1979 however was to stop looking backwards at a lost empire and start looking forward to using what skills and resources we have to find our rightful place in the world. That's partly what Thatcherism was about.
Hardly irrelevant when the Foreign Secretary lost his job yet the defence secretary didn't.
Having some Welsh in me (I usually deny it), I know from my own relatives exactly what damage she did to their community which heavily employed in the mining of coal and slate. They were dumped on from a great height with little or no support or investment to back up the pit closures.
Re : Damage to the community. During the 84 miner's strike I remember watching a news report from a mining area in which a striking miner (or two) did a dawn patrol of his village to check if their where any lights on in the nearby homes, which would show who was getting up to go to work - i.e. breaking the strike. "Communities" based on a ethos of "do as you're told if you know what's good for you" shouldn't be damaged, they should be disbanded.
But I do agree that something should have done to ease to the transition between mining and no mining. Also help should have been given for the relocation of those who suffered at the hands of the self appointed thugs.
Obviously didn't live through her time in power but studying politics and some economics, the choices around closing coal mines / steel works etc. was the right one. The production of these good in the UK was no longer competitive in comparison to importing elsewhere. This still continues today, it's cheaper to manufacture goods in China, India, the Philippines etc and import them. People need to move past the parochial view of its British, therfore its better. She also enabled greater home ownership etc when she was PM>
The problem is the legacy of these choices, there was no real implementation of phases that would enable more support for those affected and that did cause problems.
On balance I would say I am pro the decisions taken by her, and I'm not sure she was a bad for the country (as a whole) as some on the left would believe. Interesting fact is that when she took power in 1979, 67 per cent of the country belonged to the C2DE economic class — the so-called working class — but when she left office that had fallen to just 51 per cent.
She was also a politician who stood for what she believed in. Her, Tony Benn, etc. like them or loath them, you could understand who they were and what they believed in.
Re : Damage to the community. During the 84 miner's strike I remember watching a news report from a mining area in which a striking miner (or two) did a dawn patrol of his village to check if their where any lights on in the nearby homes, which would show who was getting up to go to work - i.e. breaking the strike. "Communities" based on a ethos of "do as you're told if you know what's good for you" shouldn't be damaged, they should be disbanded.
But I do agree that something should have done to ease to the transition between mining and no mining. Also help should have been given for the relocation of those who suffered at the hands of the self appointed thugs.
Maybe you should watch this, just for balance you understand!
Some interesting perspectives here, all put with honest opinion from individual points of view. I've been in agreement with all the main political parties at different times and understand where most of you are coming from.
I''ve also done a lot of reading/research into how the world works and realised that all parties are there to divide us, set us against each other in minor squabbles and debate, when in reality, the professional politicians are working TOGETHER on behalf of their masters the bankers, to bring about a globalist agenda aiming to cow us all into submission through fear and genocide.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran along with North Korea and others - none of them perect by any stretch of the imagination - but the one thing in common, independant banking systems where the IMF, World bank etc have/had no hold over the local economy, something the bankers' agenda simply will not allow as they move forward into the next phase of their United Nations/Crown/Washington/Vatican sponsored corruption.
I will say however that Thatchers' utilities sell-off was the greatest act of treason (after Heath taking us into the rabbit hole that is now the EU) to befall this country. The gas, water, electricity, was already OURS and yet some greedy bastards thought it a good idea to spend money on shares in the hope of a quick profit, which they got by re-selling to massive corporations. Those same corporations are now mostly foreign, lack proper infrastructure, year on year gain massive profits whilst putting prices up for you and I. And anyone that believes there is now more competition amongst the utilities lives a very naive existence!!
No doubt someone will attempt to rip this apart, good luck.
BTW only conspiracists complain of conspiracy theories!
YOU do not have the right to give someone else permission to tell me what I can and can't do.
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