| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 82379 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 19:44 - Apr 9 with 1787 views | stowmarketrange |
| Thatcher dead on 18:52 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
Those on here bitching about her. How did she effect you personally? LotsLots of talk about northerners but they've get FA to do with most of us on here. |
Spoken like a true son of Thatcher. Who gives a toss about anyone else,as long as they dont affect me in my scramble for wealth.. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 19:51 - Apr 9 with 1775 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 18:56 - Apr 9 by Cliff |
I'm in a similar boat, I'm slightly left leaning (as some of you may have worked out!) and have been a Liberal voter for over 20 years, but I can't see myself ever voting for them again. Not please note just because they've sided with the Tories, but because of their turn around on tuition fees and the way they've formed their alliance.
On tuition fees I know all parties go back on election promises one way or another, but I don't think any party has ever made such a strong pre-election promise, whereby they actually sign pledges not to raise the fees and then triple them as soon as they are in.
The second thing I am disillusioned with is the nature of the alliance. When I voted Liberal I was hoping that they would be a sort of political anchor, resisting or supporting policies of the other parties on a policy by policy basis, with the pros and cons argued out in the Commons and hopefully a consensus view achieved. What we have effectively got is them answering to the party whip whilst assuring us they are effecting things behind the scenes.
I'm sick of this pendulum swing politics, where everything the ruling party does is opposed, irrespective of it's merits, by the opposition. |
Cliff, I tried to analyse the behaviour of the Liberals in my reply to China Mieville's Open letter (which gueRRilla posted last year):
http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/fb_mb.php?m=v&t=54913 |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:04 - Apr 9 with 1752 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 19:44 - Apr 9 by stowmarketrange |
Spoken like a true son of Thatcher. Who gives a toss about anyone else,as long as they dont affect me in my scramble for wealth.. |
I give a toss about whet the 35K in tax I paid this year goes. No doubt supporting some work shy family with 5 kids claiming poverty yet still able to afford to smoke, drink and own a mobile phone. Oh how I love the left and socialism.
Under Thatcher, if you worked hard you were rewarded. Yes, I believe in this philosophy. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:13 - Apr 9 with 1731 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:04 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
I give a toss about whet the 35K in tax I paid this year goes. No doubt supporting some work shy family with 5 kids claiming poverty yet still able to afford to smoke, drink and own a mobile phone. Oh how I love the left and socialism.
Under Thatcher, if you worked hard you were rewarded. Yes, I believe in this philosophy. |
Worked hard at what? Strip bare the manufacturing industry and wait for 4 million Alan Sugar's to appear? That's a good plan!
Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, Gloucs, but it was just not as simple as working hard - you needed a job to do that and millions didn't have one. Which in turn demands a coherent, planned response - not blind, untested faith in the future benefits of trickle down economics. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:19 - Apr 9 with 1718 views | wood_hoop |
I also feel many good posts have been made on this topic so far, opinions are I would imagine already set in stone for many and it does seem that those who made a few bob are happy to defend the reputation of Thatcher no matter that many did not and suffered great deprivation due to the policies she followed.
I maybe was one of the unforunate few that lived in London and did not have a council house to 'buy' my vote, wrong age,not in circumstances that were ever likely to push me upthe list, no kids spread around like confetti so a council place was a given and the opportunity to open the treasure trove on offer.
Must have been others like me that made their way through Thatchers reign where it was about keeping your head above water and the only way was hard work, not enough cash to buy without plunging myself into a debt that scared the life out of me, so for me Thatcher did nothing, I was fortunate enough to be born and bred in London so my life was at least in an area where work was available most of the time, and even if not always well paid, enough to keep off the breadline.
Which it least gave you hope for better things to come in later life, a lot more than the poor buggars thrown on the dole with barely a hope in other parts of the country, and I would be surprised if even among the opinions so divided on here there was any doubt that there were massive divides between various parts of the country in comparison to the south.
I had friends in Liverpool and other parts north of Watford and see first hand the misery being heaped on good people that wanted nothing more than the dignity of being able to work and live a decent life,they did not mass picket or riot but suffered silently for months and months desperetly trying to find a way out of their predicament.
Looking back the thing I felt I learnt most at the time was the diginity of being able to support yourself and your family, I am fortunate that I am now quite a Senior Manager in a strong and viable company and have no fears like many of being made redundant, I am in a position were hiring & firing is very much a part of my working life but even now so many years after the events of the eighties I find myself always taking an extra check when the possibility of getting rid of someone comes up, my decision can be life changing in so many ways and I will never forget the experiences of watching my friends in despair when faced by that ever growing dole queue.
Rejoice no, weep neither, politicians have their agendas for mapping out my life, I have mine, very rarely do they match
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| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 with 1710 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 20:13 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Worked hard at what? Strip bare the manufacturing industry and wait for 4 million Alan Sugar's to appear? That's a good plan!
Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, Gloucs, but it was just not as simple as working hard - you needed a job to do that and millions didn't have one. Which in turn demands a coherent, planned response - not blind, untested faith in the future benefits of trickle down economics. |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? | |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:26 - Apr 9 with 1696 views | ThGrimRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 13:00 - Apr 8 by QPunkR |
I'm sure there'll be people celebrating in certain parts of the country |
This is beginning to feel like the Jimmy Saville escapade.
How long before someone tries to sue her estate or sues the conservative party for electing her.
In the age of the internet, slander and libel laws then vilifying the dead is the new sport with no come back.
Fill yer boots!
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| Thatcher dead on 20:35 - Apr 9 with 1684 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 20:13 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Worked hard at what? Strip bare the manufacturing industry and wait for 4 million Alan Sugar's to appear? That's a good plan!
Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, Gloucs, but it was just not as simple as working hard - you needed a job to do that and millions didn't have one. Which in turn demands a coherent, planned response - not blind, untested faith in the future benefits of trickle down economics. |
Manufacturing declined by 2.5% of GDP under Thatcher, which was at a slower rate than during the previous decade. It has declined around 5.5% since then with most happening under Labour.
Charts here:
http://charts-datawrapper.s3.amazonaws.com/Orl9a/index.html?rev=44#embed |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:40 - Apr 9 with 1675 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? |
Well that's almost a 'how long's a piece of string' type of question - it depends how far you trace it back and from what perspective.
Cameron is the one driving the bus now obviously, with the idea being that austerity will correct things, though the proof so far seems to be otherwise and many do disagree with that approach.
You could also put blame on Gordon Brown - I still remember vividly seeing a clip where he was trumpeting his govt's 'light touch to the market' as what was creating the financial boom.
Then there's Blair who we all know about and before that Thatcher, who was in power for long enough and confident enough in her own vision and methods (including privatization, deregulation etc) , to shift the center indefinitely a few clicks to the right.
It's a short question with 10 or 12 textbooks worth of answer. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:45 - Apr 9 with 1665 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 20:40 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Well that's almost a 'how long's a piece of string' type of question - it depends how far you trace it back and from what perspective.
Cameron is the one driving the bus now obviously, with the idea being that austerity will correct things, though the proof so far seems to be otherwise and many do disagree with that approach.
You could also put blame on Gordon Brown - I still remember vividly seeing a clip where he was trumpeting his govt's 'light touch to the market' as what was creating the financial boom.
Then there's Blair who we all know about and before that Thatcher, who was in power for long enough and confident enough in her own vision and methods (including privatization, deregulation etc) , to shift the center indefinitely a few clicks to the right.
It's a short question with 10 or 12 textbooks worth of answer. |
I like you Bklyn!  | |
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| Thatcher dead on 20:46 - Apr 9 with 1661 views | BklynRanger |
Lots of questions thrown up by stats like that, Clive. I'm not saying you should answer these yourself but, for example:
What were the regional variations (and long term effects of those variations)?
How many of those newer industries she introduced were foreign rather than British owned companies which then closed or left never to be replaced - ultimately leading to that 2010 figure?
The changes in manufacturing are a huge topic on their own certainly. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:48 - Apr 9 with 1657 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 20:21 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
But we are in the same climate today, who it's the villan now? |
Indeed. We live in a post work economy with very few genuinely value producing jobs. Keynes thought we'd all be working 15 hour weeks by now. But we're (the majority of us) instead in precarious largely pointless jobs. This is entirely in keeping with the neoliberal project. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:49 - Apr 9 with 1656 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 19:44 - Apr 9 by stowmarketrange |
Spoken like a true son of Thatcher. Who gives a toss about anyone else,as long as they dont affect me in my scramble for wealth.. |
Innit | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 with 1645 views | BklynRanger |
| Thatcher dead on 20:45 - Apr 9 by Gloucs_R |
I like you Bklyn! |
Thanks (I think :) | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 with 1644 views | THEBUSH |
Yep, but once she'd closed down the mines, shipyards, the steel industry, car factories and the engineering industry, it was always gonna be hard to stop the associated industries closing down as well
She sold the family silverware and now we have foreign companies running the energy industry, how ironic !! |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 with 1636 views | QPR1882 |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 by THEBUSH |
Yep, but once she'd closed down the mines, shipyards, the steel industry, car factories and the engineering industry, it was always gonna be hard to stop the associated industries closing down as well
She sold the family silverware and now we have foreign companies running the energy industry, how ironic !! |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:00 - Apr 9 with 1628 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 20:46 - Apr 9 by BklynRanger |
Lots of questions thrown up by stats like that, Clive. I'm not saying you should answer these yourself but, for example:
What were the regional variations (and long term effects of those variations)?
How many of those newer industries she introduced were foreign rather than British owned companies which then closed or left never to be replaced - ultimately leading to that 2010 figure?
The changes in manufacturing are a huge topic on their own certainly. |
Well you could probably study it for years and still not know all the answers. I do know that job losses in the mining industry were much heavier in the 60s and 70s, so I think a lot of the anger about it during Thatcher's time was politically motivated.
Also I think that the reason people took losing their jobs better in previous decades is that no one was doing particularly well, but during the 80s some people were actually getting richer the economy grew which obviously riled up a lot on the left (yeah I know it's hard to believe that there is any envy from those on the left).
The reason for more losses in manufacturing in later decades was probably due to the cheap flood of Chinese goods which made most of what was left of the industry uneconomical. Just as cheap goods from abroad made coal and shipbuilding too expensive in the UK in the 70s and 80s.
I think a lot of the hate for Thatcher is really anger at the loss of the old industrial way of life, which was inevitable whether Thatcher was in power or not. It's much easier to blame a person and think that they are evil than accept that it's an natural change in the economy of a country and there was nothing you could do about it. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:01 - Apr 9 with 1623 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 20:52 - Apr 9 by THEBUSH |
Yep, but once she'd closed down the mines, shipyards, the steel industry, car factories and the engineering industry, it was always gonna be hard to stop the associated industries closing down as well
She sold the family silverware and now we have foreign companies running the energy industry, how ironic !! |
If you actually look at the charts the decline was faster before she got to power. But other than that is was all her fault. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:02 - Apr 9 with 1622 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |
See post above. Automation could of course be liberating and lead to an overall reduction in work, as Keynes believed. But not under the given conditions. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:07 - Apr 9 with 1611 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 20:57 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Unfortunately during her leadership the computer came into prominence contributing heavily to unemployment. What took 10 men to do would now take 1 man a screen and keypad.
UNIONS LIKED THAT DIDN'T THEY ?????
And that was Thatchers fault ? |
No, as explained by Oscar Wilde, this is a result of our social system (of which Thatcher was an aggressive representative). Something which could benefit everybody becomes a curse:
'This, however, is, of course, the result of our property system and our system of competition. One man owns a machine which does the work of five hundred men. Five hundred men are, in consequence, thrown out of employment, and, having no work to do, become hungry and take to thieving. The one man secures the produce of the machine and keeps it, and has five hundred times as much as he should have, and probably, which is of much more importance, a great deal more than he really wants. Were that machine the property of all, every one would benefit by it. It would be an immense advantage to the community. All unintellectual labour, all monotonous, dull labour, all labour that deals with dreadful things, and involves unpleasant conditions, must be done by machinery. Machinery must work for us in coal mines, and do all sanitary services, and be the stoker of steamers, and clean the streets, and run messages on wet days, and do anything that is tedious or distressing. At present machinery competes against man. Under proper conditions machinery will serve man.' | |
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| Thatcher dead on 21:11 - Apr 9 with 1601 views | QPR1882 |
| Thatcher dead on 21:02 - Apr 9 by FDC |
See post above. Automation could of course be liberating and lead to an overall reduction in work, as Keynes believed. But not under the given conditions. |
Guess you never ever worked or knew any one that worked at British Leyland by the Iron Bridge on the Uxbridge rd then, i started there in 1978 and left 6 weeks later when people were laid off for the above reasons. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 21:19 - Apr 9 with 1579 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 21:11 - Apr 9 by QPR1882 |
Guess you never ever worked or knew any one that worked at British Leyland by the Iron Bridge on the Uxbridge rd then, i started there in 1978 and left 6 weeks later when people were laid off for the above reasons. |
I think we may have crossed wires?
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| Thatcher dead on 21:22 - Apr 9 with 1568 views | MkPaul |
Can someone explain why we should pay excessive taxes to support loss making industries just so someone has a job? That's like me running a business that's losing a fortune but keeping it open just so someone is employed regardless of if I can afford it. Also very easy to ignore all the years prior in the 70's where the workers would go on strike at the drop of a hat ... Obviously that didn't help the losses but lets not get into that eh because it couldn't be that the workers and unions had any input into the direction that needed to be taken | | | |
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