| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 82417 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 11:49 - Apr 10 with 1798 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 11:46 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
It's impossible to have a reasonable debate when people insist on writing crap like this last line. |
And picking what you consider the weakest part of an argument and ignoring the rest is a standard debating technique when you don't want to address the point being made, which is that the unions were being unreasonable. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:50 - Apr 10 with 1799 views | THEBUSH |
| Thatcher dead on 08:55 - Apr 10 by hoopstilidie |
Margaret Thatcher closed 22 of Britains mines.
Harold Wilson closed 93 in less time but was a man and Labour so that was ok. |
He didn't get the police to do his dirty work, like what Thatcher did.
Thatcher wasn't stupid, she gave the police a 45% increase in wages, so she knew they'd fight for her and I mean fight  |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:52 - Apr 10 with 1791 views | bob566 |
Rupert Murdoch has come out today lauding her saying how wonderful she was.
That says it all for me. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 11:52 - Apr 10 with 1789 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 11:50 - Apr 10 by THEBUSH |
He didn't get the police to do his dirty work, like what Thatcher did.
Thatcher wasn't stupid, she gave the police a 45% increase in wages, so she knew they'd fight for her and I mean fight |
Without the police I think you would have seen a lot more non-striking workers killed and injured on the picket lines. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:00 - Apr 10 with 1774 views | THEBUSH |
| Thatcher dead on 11:52 - Apr 10 by Clive_Anderson |
Without the police I think you would have seen a lot more non-striking workers killed and injured on the picket lines. |
I'm not saying we can do without the police and some of them deserve decent wages.
I just don't like it when they are used for political purposes and that goes for both left and right wing political party's !! | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:08 - Apr 10 with 1752 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 11:50 - Apr 10 by THEBUSH |
He didn't get the police to do his dirty work, like what Thatcher did.
Thatcher wasn't stupid, she gave the police a 45% increase in wages, so she knew they'd fight for her and I mean fight |
Cameron's shown his tactical ineptitude in that regard... |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:09 - Apr 10 with 1748 views | jonno |
| Thatcher dead on 11:39 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
What do you think is happening now with the financial sector? Subsidised to the point that it wouldn't exist otherwise. Or farming perhaps? Or the utilities? Or the railways?
All these things are subsidised via taxation. |
How are the utilities subsidised by the taxpayer? |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:18 - Apr 10 with 1730 views | stevec |
| Thatcher dead on 10:56 - Apr 10 by Stanisgod |
If you read, I didn't say Germans were cheaper to employ, I said UK workers were cheaper to be made redundant, completely different thing .
Also believe me it wouldn't have made any difference to the manning levels if we had accepted the longer hours as most of the 187 lost were gone before they tried to implement it. |
Sorry mate, my mistake.
Think it does show still that the 'them and us' position creates these hostilities that result in strikes or mass redundancies. One trying to get one over on the other. All a bit unnecessary if both sides could give a little.
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| Thatcher dead on 12:22 - Apr 10 with 1718 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 12:09 - Apr 10 by jonno |
How are the utilities subsidised by the taxpayer? |
Green Energy Feed In Tariffs for starters. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:37 - Apr 10 with 1704 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 12:18 - Apr 10 by stevec |
Sorry mate, my mistake.
Think it does show still that the 'them and us' position creates these hostilities that result in strikes or mass redundancies. One trying to get one over on the other. All a bit unnecessary if both sides could give a little.
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stevec, I hope you will forgive me, in my opinion 'them and us' is a very poor explanation for events. This is how Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang described the situation in Japan:
'Indeed, Japanese workers used to be a pretty militant bunch until fairly recently. Between 1955 and 1964, Japan lost more days per worker in strikes than Britain or France, countries which were not exactly famous for co-operative industrial relations at the time. Co-operation and loyalty came about only because Japanese workers were given institutions such as lifetime employment and company welfare schemes. Ideological campaigns (and government bashing of militant communist trade unions) did play a role, but they would not have been enough on their own.'
In other words it is not 'them and us' that creates economic decline, but economic decline that deepens 'them and us'. The relative success of Japanese and German capitalism allowed more concessions to be made to the working class in those countries. The decline of British (and American) capitalism, combined with economic recession, no longer allowed such concessions to be made in Britain and forced a more confrontational approach from British employers from the 1970s onwards. |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:43 - Apr 10 with 1695 views | nadera78 |
| Thatcher dead on 12:09 - Apr 10 by jonno |
How are the utilities subsidised by the taxpayer? |
There's a profit guarantee. If they don't make X in prices then the government makes up the rest. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 12:45 - Apr 10 with 1688 views | Stanisgod |
| Thatcher dead on 12:18 - Apr 10 by stevec |
Sorry mate, my mistake.
Think it does show still that the 'them and us' position creates these hostilities that result in strikes or mass redundancies. One trying to get one over on the other. All a bit unnecessary if both sides could give a little.
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Apology accepted. I know your partly right but in my experience in 90pc of cases I have been involved in when we did have a bit of a say as a branch, it worked fine. 1978 was the only time we have had hard industrial action here, and in recent years, believe me it's been us giving to keep our jobs, but not to the extent of being trampled on.
Fortunately we can hide behind the skirts of the 120 field engineers that really hold the balance of power union wise now as there are so few of us in the factory, but to be fair they have a pretty good relationship with the top brass. |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Thatcher dead on 12:57 - Apr 10 with 1669 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Thatcher dead on 11:28 - Apr 10 by Juzzie |
"they actually believe that being anti Thatcher you must be a labour supporter or a communist?"
There have been some great and well reasoned comments from both sides on this thread but it's this that has saddened me most. I too got accused of having a political agenda when I don't. People too quick to make assumptions, jump to conclusions, brand someone a 'lefty', just because they didn't like her.
I'm no lefty (or a righty) but I just didn't like her. I was 12 when she came into power and 23 when she left, a defining time in anyones life and life was tough then.
That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it without the need to be abused.
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Good point. Presumably they also believe Michael Heseltine plus the other Tories who couldn't stand her and kicked her out at the earliest opportunity are also lefties and communists?
For all the fawning and rewriting of history by the Tories since she kicked the bucket the truth is they couldn't wait to stab her in the back and get rid and in the decades since they went out of their way to distance themselves from her. It took a Labour PM to invite her back to Downing St and Chequers because the Tories believed she was an embarrassment, a liability and a vote loser for the Conservative Party.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Thatcher dead on 13:23 - Apr 10 with 1624 views | hoopstilidie |
| Thatcher dead on 10:15 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
The mines that were closed in the 60's and into the 70's were all exhausted. They had either been completely worked out or the coal left was impossible to reach at that point. The miners affected moved to other pits that were open and functioning well. Thatcher, by contrast, closed down mines that were capable of producing for decades if not hundreds of years to come.
I've said this already on here, you can argue that these industries were failing and needed either a revamp or phasing out. But you cannot in any way shape or form argue that the way she went about it was right. For Thatcher everything was black or white, you were with her or against her, and she took great glee in viciously and vindictively destroying communities that did not and would never support her. |
"Thatcher, by contrast, closed down mines that were capable of producing for decades if not hundreds of years to come. "
Probably explains why subsequent governments were so quick to get them reopened and working then.
Oh...no...wait.... |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 10 with 1587 views | THEBUSH |
| Thatcher dead on 13:23 - Apr 10 by hoopstilidie |
"Thatcher, by contrast, closed down mines that were capable of producing for decades if not hundreds of years to come. "
Probably explains why subsequent governments were so quick to get them reopened and working then.
Oh...no...wait.... |
The mines didn't get reopened because North Sea Natural Gas took over from Coal Fired Power Stations.
The problem is, North Sea Natural Gas is running out and we will have to wait and see, as to what form of power, takes over ? | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:47 - Apr 10 with 1575 views | Metallica_Hoop |
| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 10 by THEBUSH |
The mines didn't get reopened because North Sea Natural Gas took over from Coal Fired Power Stations.
The problem is, North Sea Natural Gas is running out and we will have to wait and see, as to what form of power, takes over ? |
Next generation Nuclear hopefully.
We'll probably have to ask the French how to build them though  |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:51 - Apr 10 with 1562 views | nadera78 |
| Thatcher dead on 13:47 - Apr 10 by Metallica_Hoop |
Next generation Nuclear hopefully.
We'll probably have to ask the French how to build them though |
EDF are in discussions with the government to build nuclear power station in this country. But they won't do it unless they get pricing and profit guarantees from the taxpayer.
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| Thatcher dead on 13:55 - Apr 10 with 1544 views | R_from_afar |
| Thatcher dead on 12:22 - Apr 10 by TheBlob |
Green Energy Feed In Tariffs for starters. |
Now now Mr The Blob, tsk tsk! Are you trying to rattle my cage sir?
Fossil fuel companies have been hugely subsidised for ever and a day and then there's the £70bn + cost of cleaning up Sellafield, which we will all be paying.
While I am here, a fascinating fact about Maggie which is hard to believe: she was the first world leader to make a speech about the dangers of global warming. I think she missed a (PR) trick in that she never used GW as an excuse for closing all those coal mines. I wonder what would've happened if carbon capture and storage technology had been available and proven back then. The whole miners thing would've been even more emotive - and ugly.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:58 - Apr 10 with 1536 views | Metallica_Hoop |
| Thatcher dead on 13:51 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
EDF are in discussions with the government to build nuclear power station in this country. But they won't do it unless they get pricing and profit guarantees from the taxpayer.
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I read something like that, quite annoying as we have built them before.
The new type of station sounds a million miles from Sizewell though.
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| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:12 - Apr 10 with 1456 views | nadera78 |
| Thatcher dead on 13:58 - Apr 10 by Metallica_Hoop |
I read something like that, quite annoying as we have built them before.
The new type of station sounds a million miles from Sizewell though.
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completely off topic
If we were being serious about doing away with fossil fuels then we'd be properly investigating Thorium reactors. They're much safer than the current reactors and there is enough Thorium in accessible places to meet our energy needs for hundreds of years to come. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:19 - Apr 10 with 1438 views | stevec |
| Thatcher dead on 12:37 - Apr 10 by TacticalR |
stevec, I hope you will forgive me, in my opinion 'them and us' is a very poor explanation for events. This is how Cambridge economist Ha-Joon Chang described the situation in Japan:
'Indeed, Japanese workers used to be a pretty militant bunch until fairly recently. Between 1955 and 1964, Japan lost more days per worker in strikes than Britain or France, countries which were not exactly famous for co-operative industrial relations at the time. Co-operation and loyalty came about only because Japanese workers were given institutions such as lifetime employment and company welfare schemes. Ideological campaigns (and government bashing of militant communist trade unions) did play a role, but they would not have been enough on their own.'
In other words it is not 'them and us' that creates economic decline, but economic decline that deepens 'them and us'. The relative success of Japanese and German capitalism allowed more concessions to be made to the working class in those countries. The decline of British (and American) capitalism, combined with economic recession, no longer allowed such concessions to be made in Britain and forced a more confrontational approach from British employers from the 1970s onwards. |
Whatever peoples views are on Thatcher, even in death, she has the power to get the brain cells working like no other politician.
I don't know when Ha-Joon Chang made that statement but to my knowledge Japan has been going through a recession/decline for the best part of 20 years. Lifetime employment sounds a wonderful thing but, outside of public services, it's not something an honest employer could offer.
I can see the argument, if Companies are doing well more concessions can be made to workers which, if all parties cooperate, does work. However, instead of the Unions being happy with those concessions they perceived it as a weakness and kept pushing for more and more concessions. Inevitably, with the decline of British capitalism, the boot then goes on the other foot and Employers are less understanding of their workers due to previous conflict and decide its easier and cheaper to 'outsource' their work abroad. Practically all manufacturing has been lost abroad purely down to cost so I don't quite see how large scale company welfare schemes and lifetime employment could have been the answer to that. Simply put, if you add to the costs of the job, the job goes elsewhere.
Actually there is a good case for saying Economic decline has softened 'them and us'. As bad as this recession is, its noticeable that workers are understanding that Employers are not making life hard for the fun of it, that they are trying desperately to keep their companies afloat and doing all they can to keep staff on. If anything, its a wake up call to Employers and Employees that they can and need to work together.
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| Thatcher dead on 14:21 - Apr 10 with 1432 views | Cliff |
There are a number of comments on this thread about the UK need for coal (or lack thereof), so I thought I'd look up the figures:
http://www.ukcoal.com/why-coal/need-for-coal/world-coal-statistics
Summary (all figures from above link and refer to 2012)
Coal responsible for 38.4% of UK electricity supply
64 Million tonnes (Mt) consumed in 2012 (84% of which was for electricity)
UK production was 16.8 Mt (Deep mines 6.2; Surface 10.2; other 0.4)
Coal imports 44.8 Mt from:
Russia 18.3 Mt
Columbia 11.9 Mt
USA 10.5 Mt |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:39 - Apr 10 with 1416 views | Metallica_Hoop |
| Thatcher dead on 14:12 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
completely off topic
If we were being serious about doing away with fossil fuels then we'd be properly investigating Thorium reactors. They're much safer than the current reactors and there is enough Thorium in accessible places to meet our energy needs for hundreds of years to come. |
Yeah I got sidetracked sorry. I'd slightly prefer nuclear to coal-fired was my gist hence do we need the coal if we go nuclear?
However both are better than thousands of propellers sitting off the coastline. | |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 10 with 1409 views | Gloucs_R |
| Thatcher dead on 14:12 - Apr 10 by nadera78 |
completely off topic
If we were being serious about doing away with fossil fuels then we'd be properly investigating Thorium reactors. They're much safer than the current reactors and there is enough Thorium in accessible places to meet our energy needs for hundreds of years to come. |
A very good friend of mine is someone high up in an energy company. He swears that the yanks have a self generating electricity box that they could share with the world if they want to. But that would kill off the need for oil, therefore putting the us economy in free fall. No reason to doubt him, very senior and very technology savvy. |  |
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