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he is neither of those things - just because he has a different point of view from you - it happens to be a fairly commonly held view that a war could have been averted and it suited her purpose not to do so
Fact of the matter is that war could have been stopped as when the real history comes out will prove. That said no one should or can defend the leadership of Argentina in them days a brutal government if ever there was one.
For me in that war the saddest headline was the gotcha sun one just plain sick.
You buy a property that is worth £100k for £20k you can only sell it for a max of £100k. How do property prices go beyond their ACTUAL worth.
nothing to do with banks / building societys giving money out to any one that asked then ?
OK, bad choice of words. I did a quick bit of googling and in 1980 average house prices were 4x that of the average salary. in 2012 it's 6x. That's a 50% increase.
Is my flat 'worth' 50% more (proportionally) now that it was in 1980? I'd say not but market forces have, IMO, pushed property prices up beyond what they are 'worth' and what people can afford. This is when we get negative equatity as people stop buying because they can no longer afford and prices drop.
You can see from this graph that post-war prices were level for decades then there are two spikes in the 80's when right-to-buy came into full force before a huge spike starting to grow late 90's which was when mortgages were being handed out like confetti.
That late 90's surge was nothing to do with Thatcher though. It was the spin-off greed of the Banks/mortgage lenders on the back of the rapidly increasing demand for people to own their own properties, which was down to her & her government. The easier it became for people to buy, the prices soared and it spiralled out of control.
Sorry would you stop saying we are a mad race i find that crass sorry but you can not say shite like that unless you have met every single person from Norn Iron
Oh come on Finney, not every German was a Nazi either and that's a fact.
Fact of the matter is that war could have been stopped as when the real history comes out will prove. That said no one should or can defend the leadership of Argentina in them days a brutal government if ever there was one.
For me in that war the saddest headline was the gotcha sun one just plain sick.
"For me in that war the saddest headline was the gotcha sun one just plain sick"
What rejoicing in the death of a number of people rather than one.
As you seem to know the answer, how could war have been avoided short of leaving Agentina in control of the islands. Unless that is what you meant.
OK, bad choice of words. I did a quick bit of googling and in 1980 average house prices were 4x that of the average salary. in 2012 it's 6x. That's a 50% increase.
Is my flat 'worth' 50% more (proportionally) now that it was in 1980? I'd say not but market forces have, IMO, pushed property prices up beyond what they are 'worth' and what people can afford. This is when we get negative equatity as people stop buying because they can no longer afford and prices drop.
You can see from this graph that post-war prices were level for decades then there are two spikes in the 80's when right-to-buy came into full force before a huge spike starting to grow late 90's which was when mortgages were being handed out like confetti.
That late 90's surge was nothing to do with Thatcher though. It was the spin-off greed of the Banks/mortgage lenders on the back of the rapidly increasing demand for people to own their own properties, which was down to her & her government. The easier it became for people to buy, the prices soared and it spiralled out of control.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Germany has a much smaller proportion of social housing than the UK and yet has not had a house price boom. Think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one IMO.
yes you can call the troubles madness as in how you seen it but to call a race of people mad i think is not on just saying
I said that they were far more mad than the people they claimed to be a part of. If you want to interpret it as being mad in all respects then that's your interpretation. I'm not sure what the 'approved outside perspective' is though. It was odd people doing odd things to each other if that's more acceptable.
Anyhow, it wasn't exactly an environment for producing a high quality political class was it?
Nothing wrong with wanting to own your own home but when people bought cheap off the council then sold at vast profit, it accelerated the property prices beyond their actual worth.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Another factor is that existing assets (houses in this case) were simply transferred, but it's not as though these transfers created new assets. It was simply the transfer of previously created assets.
On a related note...it's interesting that inflation is considered bad, but house price inflation is considered good.
I said that they were far more mad than the people they claimed to be a part of. If you want to interpret it as being mad in all respects then that's your interpretation. I'm not sure what the 'approved outside perspective' is though. It was odd people doing odd things to each other if that's more acceptable.
Anyhow, it wasn't exactly an environment for producing a high quality political class was it?
You wont let the "mad" thing go will you. Can you at least confirm with Brian and Finney that you are using the word "mad" to define the actual situation, which I agree was "mad" in every sense, as opposed to calling the population mad, which is insulting to the people of Northern Ireland.
The 1000 year history of the geographic island of Ireland leading up to "The Troubles" of our more recent history is way too complex to cover off in a couple of forum posts.
There are always 2 sides to every story, and in the case of NI there are actually probably 3 or 4 sides to the story.
"For me in that war the saddest headline was the gotcha sun one just plain sick"
What rejoicing in the death of a number of people rather than one.
As you seem to know the answer, how could war have been avoided short of leaving Agentina in control of the islands. Unless that is what you meant.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
Our government knew they were planning a raid on the island and we should have beefed up our armed services we did not do that. which left them open to attack.
Did you miss the bit where i called their government brutal to say i supported them is crass and not true. I am not rejoicing in anyone's death i hated her but i am allowed to do that,
I said that they were far more mad than the people they claimed to be a part of. If you want to interpret it as being mad in all respects then that's your interpretation. I'm not sure what the 'approved outside perspective' is though. It was odd people doing odd things to each other if that's more acceptable.
Anyhow, it wasn't exactly an environment for producing a high quality political class was it?
I am not sure who you can judge the political class mindset where does that come from? There was many fine figures who spoke out on the troubles just that bullets had a nasty habit of stopping that
You wont let the "mad" thing go will you. Can you at least confirm with Brian and Finney that you are using the word "mad" to define the actual situation, which I agree was "mad" in every sense, as opposed to calling the population mad, which is insulting to the people of Northern Ireland.
The 1000 year history of the geographic island of Ireland leading up to "The Troubles" of our more recent history is way too complex to cover off in a couple of forum posts.
There are always 2 sides to every story, and in the case of NI there are actually probably 3 or 4 sides to the story.
It's not me who isn't letting it go Bosh. I said what i said, it was an observation. I don't see how a situation can be mad without the particpants being mad.
I am not sure who you can judge the political class mindset where does that come from? There was many fine figures who spoke out on the troubles just that bullets had a nasty habit of stopping that
No I didn't mean Befast politics, I meant Westminster politics. If you wanted good leaders, it wasn't a good environment for producing them.
It's not me who isn't letting it go Bosh. I said what i said, it was an observation. I don't see how a situation can be mad without the particpants being mad.
Well bombs under cars, bombs in hotels, letter bombs, strikes, picket lines, 3 day weeks, the IMF, etc you know, that sort of thing. Maybe some people found better things to do you know, just a thought.
‘You either love her or hate her’ people would say to me. Just by this thread you can see how she gets the blood boiling. In these situations I always look to split it into two thing’s; what impact Thatcher had on me personally, and what impact I think she had on the country as a whole, be it positive or negative.
For me personally, Thatcher made my family richer via reducing income tax, enabled my Dad to buy his own house, and contributed to me travelling freely in Europe. For our country she won a war and kept us at the ‘top table’ amongst other nations. She halted the apparent decline of our country and helped us get some cash back from Europe. Ultimately though when I think of her I think negatively, the motivations behind her decisions, the long term affects of what she did, I just feel it’s made too many people become wan*ers.
When I was at school my teaching wasn’t the best. I went to a state school that was embarrassingly underinvested in. We only had access to one computer, in an age when technology was the future, what a missed opportunity. It’s all very well trying to make the sick man of Europe well again by controlling the money supply, targeting inflation etc, but sometimes there are things you should spend money on and investing then in education was the right thing to do.
My parents certainly got richer under Thatcher, my Dad got his own house, years later it went for a huge sum, my Dad’s take home pay went up. I had a more affluent lifestyle as a result but as I grew up and particularly now looking back, I can see a lot of change in people and their attitudes. Manners people show towards one another, their chosen way of life, I can’t help but think its heavily influenced by what Thatcher and her government did. The gap between the rich and the poor, those kids that have everything, and those that don’t. London riots and the scum that emerged that day are ultimately responsible for their own actions, but the work shy, money driven, individualistic society we created can’t have helped.
Growing up in London I feel I’ve had it relatively easy compared to some of the Northern communities and their experiences. But I’ve seen the effects of what unemployment does to people. Back in the 80s you had people fighting so they could continue to go down coal mines FFS. Can you imagine some of the rich London kids living off their parents money doing a day’s work down a coal mine?
Yes our international reputation was restored, yes we can still sit at the top table with the other super powers, yes we managed to get some money back from Europe, yes we reversed our long term decline, yes British politics has forever been changed etc, but at what cost? I live in a country that measures success by the wealth that people generate, and as a result I’m surrounded by di*kheads. I’m off to stand on a train that costs a ridiculous amount of money, probably running late, amongst people playing on their Iphones or blackberry whilst a 80 year old bloke hopes one of them will offer him a seat,,..’f*ck off mate I paid for this, it’s mine’. What a legacy.
You missed the bit it where she managed to treble unemployment in her first term as PM when Saatch & Saatchi produced a poster for the 79 election with a picture of a dole queue and the words 'Labours Not Working'. No other PM has been able to achieve this feat before her or since, so congratulations are in order.
And selling off council houses and not replacing them is a problem that is still around today , some 30 years after the policy was introduced. Very happy you got out of poverty on the back of selling off all the countries assets but look at the state we are in today. We were told back then by selling off the utility companies it would lead to cheaper prices for all consumers of electricity, gas,water & telephones when the complete opposite has happened. We were told the discovery of North Sea Oil would mean cheaper prices at the petrol pumps ? Yeah right. She may have stood up to the EEC (EU) but remember it was her predecessor Heath who got us into in the first place. Since then EVERY PM of either colour rozette has kowtowed to Brussels as they're all the same, only in it for themselves.
I didn't see lefties turning down the opportunity to buy their council homes. Far from it.
And to blame Maggie for today's housing situation 30 years on is ludicrous. Try blaming Tony Blair for selling us down the Human Rights river or Labour for fostering a dependency culture and opening the gates to millions of immigrants?
‘You either love her or hate her’ people would say to me. Just by this thread you can see how she gets the blood boiling. In these situations I always look to split it into two thing’s; what impact Thatcher had on me personally, and what impact I think she had on the country as a whole, be it positive or negative.
For me personally, Thatcher made my family richer via reducing income tax, enabled my Dad to buy his own house, and contributed to me travelling freely in Europe. For our country she won a war and kept us at the ‘top table’ amongst other nations. She halted the apparent decline of our country and helped us get some cash back from Europe. Ultimately though when I think of her I think negatively, the motivations behind her decisions, the long term affects of what she did, I just feel it’s made too many people become wan*ers.
When I was at school my teaching wasn’t the best. I went to a state school that was embarrassingly underinvested in. We only had access to one computer, in an age when technology was the future, what a missed opportunity. It’s all very well trying to make the sick man of Europe well again by controlling the money supply, targeting inflation etc, but sometimes there are things you should spend money on and investing then in education was the right thing to do.
My parents certainly got richer under Thatcher, my Dad got his own house, years later it went for a huge sum, my Dad’s take home pay went up. I had a more affluent lifestyle as a result but as I grew up and particularly now looking back, I can see a lot of change in people and their attitudes. Manners people show towards one another, their chosen way of life, I can’t help but think its heavily influenced by what Thatcher and her government did. The gap between the rich and the poor, those kids that have everything, and those that don’t. London riots and the scum that emerged that day are ultimately responsible for their own actions, but the work shy, money driven, individualistic society we created can’t have helped.
Growing up in London I feel I’ve had it relatively easy compared to some of the Northern communities and their experiences. But I’ve seen the effects of what unemployment does to people. Back in the 80s you had people fighting so they could continue to go down coal mines FFS. Can you imagine some of the rich London kids living off their parents money doing a day’s work down a coal mine?
Yes our international reputation was restored, yes we can still sit at the top table with the other super powers, yes we managed to get some money back from Europe, yes we reversed our long term decline, yes British politics has forever been changed etc, but at what cost? I live in a country that measures success by the wealth that people generate, and as a result I’m surrounded by di*kheads. I’m off to stand on a train that costs a ridiculous amount of money, probably running late, amongst people playing on their Iphones or blackberry whilst a 80 year old bloke hopes one of them will offer him a seat,,..’f*ck off mate I paid for this, it’s mine’. What a legacy.
Good post.
The line 'Growing up in London I feel I’ve had it relatively easy compared to some of the Northern communities and their experiences' particularly resonates with me although I have no personal memories or experiences to draw on, thats why I mainly stay out of it.
One thing is for sure though, 'This ladies not returning' and now that she is dead, the opinions formed of her will not change on either side. So thoughts to the family and I hope they dont have too much exposure to the public celebrations of the death of someone that to them I am sure is just a mother/aunt/grandma.
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