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N.B. In my opinion, it's not what's "wrong" with Christianity, but rather what's wrong with certain dismissive analyses of Christianity.
Everything that's "wrong" with Christianity is not about Christ and his teaching, but is about matters tangential to his teaching.
First and foremost, the Old Testament. Eliminate all of it and all of the hate-filled attacks on the thousands of sometimes imaginary and sometimes at least partly imaginary, and this would be a quieter place, and a quieter message board.
Second, eliminate all of the mythical elements like angels singing on high, and three wise men, and immaculate conception, and virgin birth, etc, etc, etc.
Third, eliminate all of the happy horsesh!t that goes on within the formalized churches -- especially the Catholic Church -- everything from fanciful non-Biblical embellishments and sometimes exceedingly silly rules and dogma, to long-past historical peccadilloes and worse, long-past political, economic, and military outrages.
Fourth, eliminate all of the excesses in wealth, ostentatious wealth, and pseudo regal trappings.
Fifth, do not be put off by Christ's speaking of Heaven and Hell, and the Father, but remember that these are images fully understood by his unsophisticated audience as images of one kind or another, and are not granite-hard reality.
Not one of the things I describe above has anything significant to do with either Christ or his teachings. When you ignore or eliminate all of those things, you will have the freedom to get to the heart of his teaching.
Although you can be richly rewarded by searching through the New Testament, reading all of the red typeface (which is a standard indication of the words of Christ), you really need go no further than the Sermon on the Mount, where, in essence, he gives an explication of The Ten Commandments, which alone give anyone who wants it a guide to a moral life.
The "pixies and fairies" so beloved of those who wish to denigrate either the Bible, religion itself, or just Christianity, were put in there as a means of explaining astoundingly complex concepts to people who were completely ill-equipped to understand them without these "teaching aids."
Anyone who is, or pretends to be, intelligent and well-read, should know to move immediately beyond these images and get to the heart of the teaching.
I not only admit, but trumpet aloud, the fact that it is far too easy to be dismissive based on tangentials, and difficult to get past them to the meaning, and moreover sometimes difficult beyond some persons' intellectual capacity.
In my opinion, it's better simply to not get involved in these discussions than to try to fight against the closed mind, and especially the mind that is closed because of non-essential and inconsequential side issues.
I'm just catching up with this and haven't read pages 2-3.
As a Christian myself here is my input...
As someone has already said often the problem is with people (which is one of the key points of Christianity - sin). People are sinful. Before people get defensive about that last sentence it is important to remember that the literal, biblical meaning of 'sin' is "to fall short" (of the target). We all fall short, we all 'sin'.
Gandi is supposed to have said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike Christ". This can be true, but unfortunately people judge Christianity by Christians - guess what - we fall short too.
Christianity is ultimately a 'supernatural' belief and at some point to be a Christian you have to believe in miracles/have faith. As C S Lewis said you can not just accept that Jesus was a mere 'good teacher' - "He has not left that open to us". Jesus believed in the devil, angels, he told us to heal (miraculously), believed in Adam & Eve, He died and was resurrected, etc, etc.
Unfortunately by human nature we tend to be proud and it is only when we are backed into a corner, and life looks sh*t that we sometimes tend to consider God (which is what happened for me).
A lot of people tend to say that the old testament is all bad, negative, etc. What is important when reading the bible is the context of the particular passage. Bits of the bible are historical, bits are poetic. Most of the bible was written in barbaric times. For example I've seen people on here implying that the bible teaches that slavery is ok. Yes - the bible gives guidance and laws for those times (old testament - over 2000 years ago) but never encourages slavery. In fact, when you logically think about it, it was mainly Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery (and often still do today!).
So, as I have said on here before, you will never 'prove' or 'disprove' Christianity - it is a very personal thing. As often quoted (and seen at football Italia c1990) the most 'famous' verse in the bible (only found that out myself when I actually became a Christian) is John 3:16 - "for God so loved the world that He gave his only son".
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 17:24 - Aug 4 by Catullus
I often disagree with Davillin on religious threads. As far as I know I'm not blocked. Its not so much the answer, but the style and tone of it that leads him to ignore you!
At the risk of becoming maudlin [Heaven forfend!], I must tell you that, not only are you not blocked, I can't see my ever doing that. I'd block myself before I'd block you.
There is a goodly number of posters on here who make it worthwhile to post, and you're one of them.
I spent most of my working life where my mind had to be sharp virtually every minute, and I feared that retirement would let that slip. The challenges of intelligent discourse on here keep me mentally alert.
It's not whether you and I agree or disagree that matters, but that we never become disrespectful. That's the key for me.
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 22:57 - Aug 4 by Davillin
At the risk of becoming maudlin [Heaven forfend!], I must tell you that, not only are you not blocked, I can't see my ever doing that. I'd block myself before I'd block you.
There is a goodly number of posters on here who make it worthwhile to post, and you're one of them.
I spent most of my working life where my mind had to be sharp virtually every minute, and I feared that retirement would let that slip. The challenges of intelligent discourse on here keep me mentally alert.
It's not whether you and I agree or disagree that matters, but that we never become disrespectful. That's the key for me.
Thanks.
I've said it before Cat is one of our bestest posters.
The first ever recipient of a Planet Swans Lifetime Achievement Award.
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 22:57 - Aug 4 by Davillin
At the risk of becoming maudlin [Heaven forfend!], I must tell you that, not only are you not blocked, I can't see my ever doing that. I'd block myself before I'd block you.
There is a goodly number of posters on here who make it worthwhile to post, and you're one of them.
I spent most of my working life where my mind had to be sharp virtually every minute, and I feared that retirement would let that slip. The challenges of intelligent discourse on here keep me mentally alert.
It's not whether you and I agree or disagree that matters, but that we never become disrespectful. That's the key for me.
Thanks.
Yet when it comes to discussion, and proving your argument as factually incorrect - you block people.
I've seen you do it to myself and a few others here...
Disrepectful you say? The way you speak to people at times comes across as disrespectful - have you considered that? And when a strong counter argument is put to you - the other side of the coin if you wish - then you do not want to know.
Of course, you won't read this as I'm blocked too. But at least others will see.
And we're Swaaaaanseeeea Ciiiityyyy! Swaaaansseeeaaa Ciiiityyy F C!
We're not necessarily the greatest team in football, the world has ever seen (but we're possibly the most honest and resilient).
- On behalf of The Campaign For Realistic Crowd Chanting
I'm just catching up with this and haven't read pages 2-3.
As a Christian myself here is my input...
As someone has already said often the problem is with people (which is one of the key points of Christianity - sin). People are sinful. Before people get defensive about that last sentence it is important to remember that the literal, biblical meaning of 'sin' is "to fall short" (of the target). We all fall short, we all 'sin'.
Gandi is supposed to have said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike Christ". This can be true, but unfortunately people judge Christianity by Christians - guess what - we fall short too.
Christianity is ultimately a 'supernatural' belief and at some point to be a Christian you have to believe in miracles/have faith. As C S Lewis said you can not just accept that Jesus was a mere 'good teacher' - "He has not left that open to us". Jesus believed in the devil, angels, he told us to heal (miraculously), believed in Adam & Eve, He died and was resurrected, etc, etc.
Unfortunately by human nature we tend to be proud and it is only when we are backed into a corner, and life looks sh*t that we sometimes tend to consider God (which is what happened for me).
A lot of people tend to say that the old testament is all bad, negative, etc. What is important when reading the bible is the context of the particular passage. Bits of the bible are historical, bits are poetic. Most of the bible was written in barbaric times. For example I've seen people on here implying that the bible teaches that slavery is ok. Yes - the bible gives guidance and laws for those times (old testament - over 2000 years ago) but never encourages slavery. In fact, when you logically think about it, it was mainly Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery (and often still do today!).
So, as I have said on here before, you will never 'prove' or 'disprove' Christianity - it is a very personal thing. As often quoted (and seen at football Italia c1990) the most 'famous' verse in the bible (only found that out myself when I actually became a Christian) is John 3:16 - "for God so loved the world that He gave his only son".
Very well put
No one will be able to prove 100% ether way
Dispite what some say Christianity is a force for good
Blimey - been away for a few hours and toys prams out of - everywhere
OK here goes :)
[Darran - "If you profess to be this enlightened leftie like yoh do on here why do you constantly try to ridicule the OP? "
never professed to be a leftie, that's always been your view though - just because i'm not to the right of Attila like you.
ridicule, no, challenge yes - anyway I'm either on his ignore list or he ignores me anyway, he doesn't reply to me anymore - guess he doesn't like debate - whatevers :)
At least I haven't called him a c*nt which is what people generally get from you if they don't agree
N_J, JB, ECB & others - thank you for stepping in whilst I had stepped out
JB - I was like you - used to respect him.
Darran (again)"I'm just intrigued as to why this peace loving Dalai Lama typey gets involved.
Perhaps if Dav was a murderer/pedo/rapist he wouldn't. "
Buddhism (and I'm buddhish not buddhist anyway), mindfulness, acceptance doesn't mean apathy and not caring - it's about dealing with it and knowing it will pass, but that doesn't mean you can't challenge with kindness at heart - I don't always succeed, I'm flawed as we all are.
You really have shown yourself up there, let's be honest that last line is truly pathetic, below even you really.
I don't defend criminals I protest at the way we treat criminals which does nothing to benefit society in the long term, it's sad that people like you don't see this and is one reason it continues - never try and understand them and you will never stop them. It's very easy to say lock them up, cut their balls off, kill them - but it's a very simplistic, naive view and to be honest I do have pity and a tad of sympathy for you that you have a little core of hatred like that inside - it's not healthy you know - I have your best interests at heart here mind :)
Darran -againx2"Look you bell end he keeps going on about the scum of the earth being rehabilitated and he keeps going on at Dav,he's been doing it for years. I reckon it's an Anerican thing like a few others. "
not all, some you just need to lock up and throw away the key - have never said all can be fixed but killing another person in cold blood- just makes you as bad as them for whatever reason, it's still homicide.
No not Americans, just because I don't quite get on with 1 American doesn't mean I amprejidiced against all - that would be very very sad. I just don't like people who patronise and try to use their education to belittle people - education should be a right, sadly it's a privilige in the world generally and I have no time for those who use it to belittle rather than empower others.
Darran againx3 - "I'm not fighting anyone's battles though if someone else had started this thread Jackb probably wouldn't have replied,Cottsy is another one,weird as f*ck mun.
I couldn't give a toss if you don't agree but we all know it's true and as for Dav putting people on ignore I don't agree with that either. "
Bloody hell, you really are spouting rubbish on here tonight, i've really upset you by having a pop at your mate haven't I.
I don't tend to keep records of which threads I respond to like you obviously do to think I only respond to Dav's (untrue as it is) - I've never had a stalker before, wow!
One last thing, and I say this with respect and honesty, and thank you for your considered response - why the f*ck are you having a pop because of something I said about your mate - has he taken you to one side in the playground and told you I pinched his sharpener - I haven't, honest! - grow up, you big girls blouse, respectfully :)
And breathe! - what an interesting end to a pleasant evening
0
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 23:21 - Aug 4 with 2514 views
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 20:08 - Aug 4 by Watchman
As always Dav these threads are the best ones! For me it is simple everyone who lives needs to read
The Zohar
The Torah/ Pentateuch Genesis: Exodus: Leviticus: Numbers: Deuteronomy:
Quran the first 6 Suras
These are the books all structured society is based upon
Each of us are here, we are not told why we are here, but the emperical fight good/evil:bad/good etc is one we all have to take on board. It is about the individual not 2 "belong to this tribe/cult" etc like always rules or laws are broken by a few but affect everyone
A great friend of mine found 'God' and Jesus and the first thing he said to me was I never knew how much money it costs to keep the Church going! and I said didn't Jesus say tear down the temples? why do you need building/land/real estate to pray? I did not get a reply
I love these subjects on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[p.s. Thanks for the kind words.]
A couple of reactions.
Christ never "ministered" or "worshipped" in a church ["temple"] in his adult life, that we know of..
I can't remember who said this -- best guess Emerson or Thoreau] -- I paraphrase very broadly, not having read it in decades. It's easier to worship God outside in his church, filled with his actual miracles, and not manmade imitations, and because you'll be closer to God.
I think you'd get along quite well with either Emerson or Thoreau.
Hyperbole much. Warping the minds of the weak and the young. Yes warping them into being nice to everyone. What monsters. Quick question: if practitioners of religion have been manipulated and warped into religion then its no longer a choice is it? Ooops How can someones views affect what you can or cant do? Have you been lobotomised recently or something? You seemed to be quite a reasonable poster back in the day. I guess real life was warped your mind without the help of religion.
[Post edited 4 Aug 2014 20:35]
It is a choice to reject that brainwashing if they recognise and get help or are strong enough themselves - sexuality - not that easy, unlike what some evangelists will have you believe - agree???
when those views are enforced on a public, admittedly it's pretty good the UK now but - a few years ago I couldn't shop on a sunday , have a drink on a sunday - views affecting what I can and can't do
lobotomised? no I rejected religion many many years ago, thank god
Blimey - been away for a few hours and toys prams out of - everywhere
OK here goes :)
[Darran - "If you profess to be this enlightened leftie like yoh do on here why do you constantly try to ridicule the OP? "
never professed to be a leftie, that's always been your view though - just because i'm not to the right of Attila like you.
ridicule, no, challenge yes - anyway I'm either on his ignore list or he ignores me anyway, he doesn't reply to me anymore - guess he doesn't like debate - whatevers :)
At least I haven't called him a c*nt which is what people generally get from you if they don't agree
N_J, JB, ECB & others - thank you for stepping in whilst I had stepped out
JB - I was like you - used to respect him.
Darran (again)"I'm just intrigued as to why this peace loving Dalai Lama typey gets involved.
Perhaps if Dav was a murderer/pedo/rapist he wouldn't. "
Buddhism (and I'm buddhish not buddhist anyway), mindfulness, acceptance doesn't mean apathy and not caring - it's about dealing with it and knowing it will pass, but that doesn't mean you can't challenge with kindness at heart - I don't always succeed, I'm flawed as we all are.
You really have shown yourself up there, let's be honest that last line is truly pathetic, below even you really.
I don't defend criminals I protest at the way we treat criminals which does nothing to benefit society in the long term, it's sad that people like you don't see this and is one reason it continues - never try and understand them and you will never stop them. It's very easy to say lock them up, cut their balls off, kill them - but it's a very simplistic, naive view and to be honest I do have pity and a tad of sympathy for you that you have a little core of hatred like that inside - it's not healthy you know - I have your best interests at heart here mind :)
Darran -againx2"Look you bell end he keeps going on about the scum of the earth being rehabilitated and he keeps going on at Dav,he's been doing it for years. I reckon it's an Anerican thing like a few others. "
not all, some you just need to lock up and throw away the key - have never said all can be fixed but killing another person in cold blood- just makes you as bad as them for whatever reason, it's still homicide.
No not Americans, just because I don't quite get on with 1 American doesn't mean I amprejidiced against all - that would be very very sad. I just don't like people who patronise and try to use their education to belittle people - education should be a right, sadly it's a privilige in the world generally and I have no time for those who use it to belittle rather than empower others.
Darran againx3 - "I'm not fighting anyone's battles though if someone else had started this thread Jackb probably wouldn't have replied,Cottsy is another one,weird as f*ck mun.
I couldn't give a toss if you don't agree but we all know it's true and as for Dav putting people on ignore I don't agree with that either. "
Bloody hell, you really are spouting rubbish on here tonight, i've really upset you by having a pop at your mate haven't I.
I don't tend to keep records of which threads I respond to like you obviously do to think I only respond to Dav's (untrue as it is) - I've never had a stalker before, wow!
One last thing, and I say this with respect and honesty, and thank you for your considered response - why the f*ck are you having a pop because of something I said about your mate - has he taken you to one side in the playground and told you I pinched his sharpener - I haven't, honest! - grow up, you big girls blouse, respectfully :)
And breathe! - what an interesting end to a pleasant evening
You haven't upset me,I''m actually one of the few that's met you and I think you're very nice man even though you talk a lot of toilet.
The first ever recipient of a Planet Swans Lifetime Achievement Award.
I'm just catching up with this and haven't read pages 2-3.
As a Christian myself here is my input...
As someone has already said often the problem is with people (which is one of the key points of Christianity - sin). People are sinful. Before people get defensive about that last sentence it is important to remember that the literal, biblical meaning of 'sin' is "to fall short" (of the target). We all fall short, we all 'sin'.
Gandi is supposed to have said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike Christ". This can be true, but unfortunately people judge Christianity by Christians - guess what - we fall short too.
Christianity is ultimately a 'supernatural' belief and at some point to be a Christian you have to believe in miracles/have faith. As C S Lewis said you can not just accept that Jesus was a mere 'good teacher' - "He has not left that open to us". Jesus believed in the devil, angels, he told us to heal (miraculously), believed in Adam & Eve, He died and was resurrected, etc, etc.
Unfortunately by human nature we tend to be proud and it is only when we are backed into a corner, and life looks sh*t that we sometimes tend to consider God (which is what happened for me).
A lot of people tend to say that the old testament is all bad, negative, etc. What is important when reading the bible is the context of the particular passage. Bits of the bible are historical, bits are poetic. Most of the bible was written in barbaric times. For example I've seen people on here implying that the bible teaches that slavery is ok. Yes - the bible gives guidance and laws for those times (old testament - over 2000 years ago) but never encourages slavery. In fact, when you logically think about it, it was mainly Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery (and often still do today!).
So, as I have said on here before, you will never 'prove' or 'disprove' Christianity - it is a very personal thing. As often quoted (and seen at football Italia c1990) the most 'famous' verse in the bible (only found that out myself when I actually became a Christian) is John 3:16 - "for God so loved the world that He gave his only son".
Good post - I wish others such as Davillin would have put this forward in such an articulate manner, instead of his sarcastic or pretentious words. Just don't go blocking anyway if you're here on this thread for a debate.
In term of Christianity, or any religion for that matter, or at least the basis behind it - it is simply a mindset that has been programmed if you wish, from a young age and when susceptible. The stories behind religion are completely illogical and nonsensical, full of discrepancies. I would also like to put it to you that religion has caused more pain than good, it has thwarted humanities progression and restricted our view of the world, the universe and people around us. As such, and I have met many deeply religious people, they argue that parts of their bible, qu'ran or religious texts that are contentious to good modern living, are taken out of context. From an outsider, it appears the religious will pick only the parts of their text that suit them, and not the whole.
For even having this debate - I will be criticised for not letting people "live and let live", yet I am not part of a religion that regularly steps on the rights and lives of others (such as women's rights, gay marriage, homosexuality within the church, sex outside of marriage, the use of condoms being bad etc). As an atheist, my view is to live life for eachother and family, and not to the service of a mythical force. I would prefer to be happy, and not have to worry about going to hell.
As such, it raises the question - why? Why do humans require religion?
We do not see animals in the wild attend churches on a Sunday, or mount shrines for an almighty version of their species who lives in the clouds. Yet we regularly see good in wild animals - wilderbeast saving the young and old from predators, as well as elephants saving an animal from another species from attack for instance. So what drives these animals to good without religion?
Primitive man, before the ages of understanding and knowledge enlightenment, struggled to find answers to events that today we take for granted. As such, it's easy to assume that the reasoning they would have come to was that a powerful entity was responsible - for the sun setting, rising and even for life. When now we understand that the sun simply appears to set and rise due to the orbit of our planet facing the sun. Even if there was a person named Jesus, for which no real evidence exists, then what's to say he was not simply a very clever illusionist or con-man, able to deceive those in the same manner as modern day magicians against a more knowledgeable modern day audience?
Then consider the fact that this 'mindset' could easily be utilised for control of a populace. For power. The bibles have been re-written only under the authority of serving people in charge for instance.
Then let's consider the question - what is a god? If it's an entity that can create as well as destroy, then aren't we gods? If a god is an all powerful creator of life, then aren't we again gods?
i am also hoping you can answer this as a religious person yourself. Why do you follow Christianity when you know this does not make you a better person than myself. We are both capable of doing good, and performing great things. The difference being, I can do exactly the same without the need of a god. So what drives you and how did you start your path?
Now THIS is a debate!
[Post edited 4 Aug 2014 23:42]
And we're Swaaaaanseeeea Ciiiityyyy! Swaaaansseeeaaa Ciiiityyy F C!
We're not necessarily the greatest team in football, the world has ever seen (but we're possibly the most honest and resilient).
- On behalf of The Campaign For Realistic Crowd Chanting
It is a choice to reject that brainwashing if they recognise and get help or are strong enough themselves - sexuality - not that easy, unlike what some evangelists will have you believe - agree???
when those views are enforced on a public, admittedly it's pretty good the UK now but - a few years ago I couldn't shop on a sunday , have a drink on a sunday - views affecting what I can and can't do
lobotomised? no I rejected religion many many years ago, thank god
Drizzle - possible one of the best worst trolls on the internet, or the biggest religion apologist known to man.
Either way - he comes across as a complete idiot at times instead of taking the debate head on. You should also watch out for his links and factual sources - as they are undoubtedly written by clowns of equal stature to Drizzle.
Keep up the fight jackb.
And we're Swaaaaanseeeea Ciiiityyyy! Swaaaansseeeaaa Ciiiityyy F C!
We're not necessarily the greatest team in football, the world has ever seen (but we're possibly the most honest and resilient).
- On behalf of The Campaign For Realistic Crowd Chanting
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 19:26 - Aug 4 by Darran
I'm not fighting anyone's battles though if someone else had started this thread Jackb probably wouldn't have replied,Cottsy is another one,weird as f*ck mun.
I couldn't give a toss if you don't agree but we all know it's true and as for Dav putting people on ignore I don't agree with that either.
Are you going to accuse me of being anti American again as well? FFS!
Davillin grips my sh!t for the same reason as others have already mentioned and because he made inaccurate, disparaging remarks about me and because he's not half as clever as he likes to think.
I wasn't going to post on this thread until you mentioned me though.
If man evolved from monkeys why do we still have monkeys?
Drizzle - possible one of the best worst trolls on the internet, or the biggest religion apologist known to man.
Either way - he comes across as a complete idiot at times instead of taking the debate head on. You should also watch out for his links and factual sources - as they are undoubtedly written by clowns of equal stature to Drizzle.
Keep up the fight jackb.
my money's on troll, he's too calm and calculated in his responses.
Oh I never believe anything I read on the internet!
my money's on troll, he's too calm and calculated in his responses.
Oh I never believe anything I read on the internet!
my loins are girded!
top man!
And we're Swaaaaanseeeea Ciiiityyyy! Swaaaansseeeaaa Ciiiityyy F C!
We're not necessarily the greatest team in football, the world has ever seen (but we're possibly the most honest and resilient).
- On behalf of The Campaign For Realistic Crowd Chanting
I'm just catching up with this and haven't read pages 2-3.
As a Christian myself here is my input...
As someone has already said often the problem is with people (which is one of the key points of Christianity - sin). People are sinful. Before people get defensive about that last sentence it is important to remember that the literal, biblical meaning of 'sin' is "to fall short" (of the target). We all fall short, we all 'sin'.
Gandi is supposed to have said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike Christ". This can be true, but unfortunately people judge Christianity by Christians - guess what - we fall short too.
Christianity is ultimately a 'supernatural' belief and at some point to be a Christian you have to believe in miracles/have faith. As C S Lewis said you can not just accept that Jesus was a mere 'good teacher' - "He has not left that open to us". Jesus believed in the devil, angels, he told us to heal (miraculously), believed in Adam & Eve, He died and was resurrected, etc, etc.
Unfortunately by human nature we tend to be proud and it is only when we are backed into a corner, and life looks sh*t that we sometimes tend to consider God (which is what happened for me).
A lot of people tend to say that the old testament is all bad, negative, etc. What is important when reading the bible is the context of the particular passage. Bits of the bible are historical, bits are poetic. Most of the bible was written in barbaric times. For example I've seen people on here implying that the bible teaches that slavery is ok. Yes - the bible gives guidance and laws for those times (old testament - over 2000 years ago) but never encourages slavery. In fact, when you logically think about it, it was mainly Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery (and often still do today!).
So, as I have said on here before, you will never 'prove' or 'disprove' Christianity - it is a very personal thing. As often quoted (and seen at football Italia c1990) the most 'famous' verse in the bible (only found that out myself when I actually became a Christian) is John 3:16 - "for God so loved the world that He gave his only son".
Nah this is a better explanation for 3:16
The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though
0
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 03:51 - Aug 5 with 2388 views
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 11:48 - Aug 4 by JJJack
I'm glad you posted this link. According to you it is "evidence" that Jesus Christ existed. When even a cursory read of it raises far more questions than answers. The link suggests that Christ was perhaps crucified or set upon by dogs....but Tacitus wrote this in c.116 A.D. and states it occurred in 64 A.D. I had always thought "Jesus" died in 32 or 33 A.D. .....as that was his age at the time. Perhaps I just misunderstood this point. I'm sorry, but I have read a lot of evidence to suggest there is no certainty that a" Jesus Christ" Esq. existed in that area at that particular time. The origins of Christianity are highly questionable and were "agreed" upon some centuries later I understand. In other words, conveniently made up to control the masses. It worked. Until people developed the intelligence to understand the deviousness of it all.
Well the issue with Jesus' birth and time is based on the information of the bible, and its shared upon people who like history that this is increasingly incorrect. And mate I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the silencing of the masses and that. as this bit of information and him being sentenced the way he is actually puts him in a much more negative light than what christians would like to think.
I do believe a Jesus Christ did exist, just as much as I believe that Genghis Khan existed. A figure in history that is quite interesting, but not as much as people make them out to be. And yes people can select not to agree with the historical theory. I mean aside from what we have as far as historical record what else can we do to catalouge history as we know it?
I have never read much disputing that a man called Jesus Christ had lived. And as some of the lads know I'm not a christian so I don't say this to support the religion. Really it makes not a lot of deal to me, if he lived or not. However I do find Senator Tacitus' work as very important. A good deal of what we know about the Roman empire, the way life was, and the important figures come from his work. It's stupid to suggest Tacictus himself and all his records are taking a piss on your own beliefs. how often is a normal bloke taken as a religious symbol after his death? How often are legends bore out a man's life who did things to give people passion. I wish there was more records on this charismatic rebel and possible terrorist called Jesus Christ personally.
It is a choice to reject that brainwashing if they recognise and get help or are strong enough themselves - sexuality - not that easy, unlike what some evangelists will have you believe - agree???
when those views are enforced on a public, admittedly it's pretty good the UK now but - a few years ago I couldn't shop on a sunday , have a drink on a sunday - views affecting what I can and can't do
lobotomised? no I rejected religion many many years ago, thank god
How do you reject brainwashing and manipulation if you don't know you are being brainwashed? You said religion is a choice. Its not a choice if you are being brainwashed is it? Peoples actions impinge on others rights, not their views. My beliefs remain just that until I act on them. You couldn't have a drink or shop on Sunday because that was the law. Not because Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on your door and told you that you couldn't. You can't take drugs either, or do lots of things you may wish to. That's because of the law. Are all law abiding citizens brainwashed as well? Maybe you think we don't need laws? Sounds a bit like anarchy to me. To finish it all you thank god in a statement rejecting religion. Oh my.( What did I say about peoples actions belying their beliefs?)
How do you reject brainwashing and manipulation if you don't know you are being brainwashed? You said religion is a choice. Its not a choice if you are being brainwashed is it? Peoples actions impinge on others rights, not their views. My beliefs remain just that until I act on them. You couldn't have a drink or shop on Sunday because that was the law. Not because Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on your door and told you that you couldn't. You can't take drugs either, or do lots of things you may wish to. That's because of the law. Are all law abiding citizens brainwashed as well? Maybe you think we don't need laws? Sounds a bit like anarchy to me. To finish it all you thank god in a statement rejecting religion. Oh my.( What did I say about peoples actions belying their beliefs?)
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 6:57]
Yep, def troll, you're trying too hard.
It was law because of religious beliefs, stop being daft to get a reaction.
Good post - I wish others such as Davillin would have put this forward in such an articulate manner, instead of his sarcastic or pretentious words. Just don't go blocking anyway if you're here on this thread for a debate.
In term of Christianity, or any religion for that matter, or at least the basis behind it - it is simply a mindset that has been programmed if you wish, from a young age and when susceptible. The stories behind religion are completely illogical and nonsensical, full of discrepancies. I would also like to put it to you that religion has caused more pain than good, it has thwarted humanities progression and restricted our view of the world, the universe and people around us. As such, and I have met many deeply religious people, they argue that parts of their bible, qu'ran or religious texts that are contentious to good modern living, are taken out of context. From an outsider, it appears the religious will pick only the parts of their text that suit them, and not the whole.
For even having this debate - I will be criticised for not letting people "live and let live", yet I am not part of a religion that regularly steps on the rights and lives of others (such as women's rights, gay marriage, homosexuality within the church, sex outside of marriage, the use of condoms being bad etc). As an atheist, my view is to live life for eachother and family, and not to the service of a mythical force. I would prefer to be happy, and not have to worry about going to hell.
As such, it raises the question - why? Why do humans require religion?
We do not see animals in the wild attend churches on a Sunday, or mount shrines for an almighty version of their species who lives in the clouds. Yet we regularly see good in wild animals - wilderbeast saving the young and old from predators, as well as elephants saving an animal from another species from attack for instance. So what drives these animals to good without religion?
Primitive man, before the ages of understanding and knowledge enlightenment, struggled to find answers to events that today we take for granted. As such, it's easy to assume that the reasoning they would have come to was that a powerful entity was responsible - for the sun setting, rising and even for life. When now we understand that the sun simply appears to set and rise due to the orbit of our planet facing the sun. Even if there was a person named Jesus, for which no real evidence exists, then what's to say he was not simply a very clever illusionist or con-man, able to deceive those in the same manner as modern day magicians against a more knowledgeable modern day audience?
Then consider the fact that this 'mindset' could easily be utilised for control of a populace. For power. The bibles have been re-written only under the authority of serving people in charge for instance.
Then let's consider the question - what is a god? If it's an entity that can create as well as destroy, then aren't we gods? If a god is an all powerful creator of life, then aren't we again gods?
i am also hoping you can answer this as a religious person yourself. Why do you follow Christianity when you know this does not make you a better person than myself. We are both capable of doing good, and performing great things. The difference being, I can do exactly the same without the need of a god. So what drives you and how did you start your path?
Now THIS is a debate!
[Post edited 4 Aug 2014 23:42]
Excellent post. If only this thread had started this way..... You make the point that thousands of years ago mankind struggled to understand everyday occurences that these days we take for granted . My "argument" is that in 2014, as we know so much more than back then, it's entirely logical that people are deserting religion(s) in droves for reasons that have been mentioned in various similar threads of late. In the U,K., being a highly developed country, it is even more so the case that people are turning away from orthodox religion(s) and that cannot be a surprise even though it is clearly of concern to those still belonging to religious orders. "Why do people still use religion in 2014"......my educated guesses are.....lack of development, lack of resources/hope, lack of (scientific or historical) knowledge.....hence in other nations, particularly those in Asia and Africa, religion and dictatorships remain very much hand in hand. In fact, it could be argued that there is "no" choice. Final Point........I have never ever been "told/ordered" to be an aetheist. I have been "told" to find God on hundreds, maybe thousands of occasions. That shows me all I need to know about which side of the fence is more "aggressive" to t'other and maybe explains the touchiness of certain religiously-minded souls.
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What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 14:03 - Aug 5 with 2262 views
What's "wrong" with Christianity? on 03:51 - Aug 5 by phact0rri
Well the issue with Jesus' birth and time is based on the information of the bible, and its shared upon people who like history that this is increasingly incorrect. And mate I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the silencing of the masses and that. as this bit of information and him being sentenced the way he is actually puts him in a much more negative light than what christians would like to think.
I do believe a Jesus Christ did exist, just as much as I believe that Genghis Khan existed. A figure in history that is quite interesting, but not as much as people make them out to be. And yes people can select not to agree with the historical theory. I mean aside from what we have as far as historical record what else can we do to catalouge history as we know it?
I have never read much disputing that a man called Jesus Christ had lived. And as some of the lads know I'm not a christian so I don't say this to support the religion. Really it makes not a lot of deal to me, if he lived or not. However I do find Senator Tacitus' work as very important. A good deal of what we know about the Roman empire, the way life was, and the important figures come from his work. It's stupid to suggest Tacictus himself and all his records are taking a piss on your own beliefs. how often is a normal bloke taken as a religious symbol after his death? How often are legends bore out a man's life who did things to give people passion. I wish there was more records on this charismatic rebel and possible terrorist called Jesus Christ personally.
Good post mate. However, "It's stupid to suggest Tacictus himself and all his records are taking a piss on your own beliefs. how often is a normal bloke taken as a religious symbol after his death?" I wasn't inferring the above at all. I love history myself, did it for 'A -Level' (so you'd have to love it!!). In fact I was(as are you) rather bemoaning the lack of accurate historical data and subsequently peoples' random selection of defending such data. Christianity in itself is harmless and change it to the word "humanity" and you'd have my full undivided attention.
Excellent post. If only this thread had started this way..... You make the point that thousands of years ago mankind struggled to understand everyday occurences that these days we take for granted . My "argument" is that in 2014, as we know so much more than back then, it's entirely logical that people are deserting religion(s) in droves for reasons that have been mentioned in various similar threads of late. In the U,K., being a highly developed country, it is even more so the case that people are turning away from orthodox religion(s) and that cannot be a surprise even though it is clearly of concern to those still belonging to religious orders. "Why do people still use religion in 2014"......my educated guesses are.....lack of development, lack of resources/hope, lack of (scientific or historical) knowledge.....hence in other nations, particularly those in Asia and Africa, religion and dictatorships remain very much hand in hand. In fact, it could be argued that there is "no" choice. Final Point........I have never ever been "told/ordered" to be an aetheist. I have been "told" to find God on hundreds, maybe thousands of occasions. That shows me all I need to know about which side of the fence is more "aggressive" to t'other and maybe explains the touchiness of certain religiously-minded souls.
That's one of my points - religion, it would appear, is bourne out of ignorance of the world around us, and the unwillingness to learn. Religion inhibits the natural human need to learn and be inquisitive. Fear is instilled early in life, with a threat of of going to hell... and the same form of manipulation can also be applied to the susceptible.... why else would religion pursue the downtrodden and hopeless?
I'll just leave this here as a little example of their messages that use fear and hate to attract people (genuine images btw)!
And we're Swaaaaanseeeea Ciiiityyyy! Swaaaansseeeaaa Ciiiityyy F C!
We're not necessarily the greatest team in football, the world has ever seen (but we're possibly the most honest and resilient).
- On behalf of The Campaign For Realistic Crowd Chanting
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