| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. 20:14 - Feb 19 with 17045 views | exiledclaseboy |
F*ck me get on with it. Everyone knows you're going to come out with something fairly meaningless that you'll hail as a triumph before your Cabinet members start scratching each other's eyes out from now until all eternity. [Post edited 19 Feb 2016 20:22]
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:28 - Feb 21 with 1067 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:27 - Feb 21 by trampie |
Michael Foot and Tony Benn were against the Common Market. |
Indeed. I'd imagine they'd be over the moon with what the EU is now though.
Corbyn, well, he hated the Eu but wants to remain. I guess he's a statistical outlier. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:28 - Feb 21 with 1067 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:26 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
I'd posit the Eu as an organisation has become so large and bloated that it's become the big entity in it's own right. The institutions and people running them certainly appear more socialist in nature. |
You're making no sense. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:29 - Feb 21 with 1065 views | Highjack |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:23 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Oh right. Well if they don't, who does? |
Jean Claude junker is definitely a socialist. The guy who was there before him who's name escapes me but he was vaguely Spanish sounding was a proper communist. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:30 - Feb 21 with 1066 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:27 - Feb 21 by trampie |
Michael Foot and Tony Benn were against the Common Market. |
Most of Labour's prominent true socialists campaigned against membership in 1975. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:32 - Feb 21 with 1054 views | blueytheblue |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:30 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Most of Labour's prominent true socialists campaigned against membership in 1975. |
Against the Common Market.
If what was presented then is what the EU is now, still confident they'd have campaigned against it? | |
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| Cameron's EU on 14:39 - Feb 21 with 1049 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:32 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
Against the Common Market.
If what was presented then is what the EU is now, still confident they'd have campaigned against it? |
Yup. While it was sold to the public in 1975 as a common market it was always the plan even then for Europe to head in the direction it has headed in ever since. If you can be arsed, read the treaties and white papers etc that were produced at the time.
PS - the only national paper to campaign against membership in 1975 was...the Morning Star. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 14:42]
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| Cameron's EU on 14:48 - Feb 21 with 1032 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU on 14:46 - Feb 21 by Lohengrin |
That's because their puppet masters in the Politburo have actively sought to undermine any notion of European unity since 1917.
The Morning Star! I pick up a copy every now and then, it always cheers me up.  |
Can't be, Bluey reckons European integration is a socialist utopia. Wibble.
I haven't looked at the Morning Star for years. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:51 - Feb 21 with 1024 views | jackonicko |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:23 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Oh right. Well if they don't, who does? |
And there, in just eight words, is the perfect argument for the 'leave' campaign. But as others have said, we will instead end up in meaningless sideshow debates over immigration and benefits. |  | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:53 - Feb 21 with 1011 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:51 - Feb 21 by jackonicko |
And there, in just eight words, is the perfect argument for the 'leave' campaign. But as others have said, we will instead end up in meaningless sideshow debates over immigration and benefits. |
Which way are you leaning mate? Despite your Torieness, you're a sensible enough fella. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:55 - Feb 21 with 1007 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:53 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Which way are you leaning mate? Despite your Torieness, you're a sensible enough fella. |
Jacko's an out surely? | | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:57 - Feb 21 with 1003 views | trampie |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:28 - Feb 21 by blueytheblue |
Indeed. I'd imagine they'd be over the moon with what the EU is now though.
Corbyn, well, he hated the Eu but wants to remain. I guess he's a statistical outlier. |
Most parties are right wing, modern Labour are right wing, check out where they are on the political compass site, parties on the extreme right call other parties that are slightly left of them as lefties but those parties are still right wing parties.
Its like a right winger and an inside right wing forward both play on the right hand side of the pitch but with one inside the other one.
Right wing is right wing and both Labour and the Conservatives need to be treated as such. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:57 - Feb 21 with 1003 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:55 - Feb 21 by londonlisa2001 |
Jacko's an out surely? |
I've no idea. You know him better than I do. Especially as I've not actually met him. | |
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| Cameron's EU on 15:00 - Feb 21 with 994 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:57 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
I've no idea. You know him better than I do. Especially as I've not actually met him. |
Not at all - I've never met him either. I'm sure I recall him saying he was an out though months ago - perhaps I'm wrong and it was someone else.
Edited to say - of course I could try to be less of a woman and allow jacko to talk for himself ;-) [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 15:03]
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| Cameron's EU on 15:04 - Feb 21 with 986 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU on 15:00 - Feb 21 by londonlisa2001 |
Not at all - I've never met him either. I'm sure I recall him saying he was an out though months ago - perhaps I'm wrong and it was someone else.
Edited to say - of course I could try to be less of a woman and allow jacko to talk for himself ;-) [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 15:03]
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I thought all you London-dwelling metropolitan types had regular get togethers. I'm disappointed now. [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 15:04]
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:08 - Feb 21 with 978 views | Lohengrin |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:57 - Feb 21 by trampie |
Most parties are right wing, modern Labour are right wing, check out where they are on the political compass site, parties on the extreme right call other parties that are slightly left of them as lefties but those parties are still right wing parties.
Its like a right winger and an inside right wing forward both play on the right hand side of the pitch but with one inside the other one.
Right wing is right wing and both Labour and the Conservatives need to be treated as such. |
Treat them to a Gulag? |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:23 - Feb 21 with 953 views | jackonicko |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 14:53 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Which way are you leaning mate? Despite your Torieness, you're a sensible enough fella. |
I'm still leaning towards out, but undecided.
Cameron's deal is largely pointless. The emergency brakes and child benefit carve outs are for me meaningless. It is I've not seen a lot of commentary on the economic carve outs to understand what it means for the city, but that might be more positive. The statement that 'ever closer union' doesn't apply to the UK I suspect is largely token.
For me, the decision has to be much bigger picture. Politically, I have a serious problem with the democratic deficit in the EU. Unelected, largely socialist  beaucrats making decisions in place of elected representatives. And checks and balances coming from 28 member states who can't even agree on a dinner menu, let alone the strategic direction of a 500m people bloc.
Economically, I think Britain would do better outside of the EU. the world is bigger than the EU and for the reasons above, have been hopeless at negotiating free trade agreements. Yay, we have a deal with South Korea but nothing with the US, with China, with India. Switzerland has more free trade deals than the EU. I cannot believe the UK could not do better, particularly without having to pander to 27 other interests. I also believe we re too important as net importers from the EU (to the tune of €57bn a year) to think that the EU would raise tariffs if we left. It just wouldn't happen.
So we get better free movement of goods if we leave. Better control over free movement of people - let's face it, you're not going to need a visa to get to EU states. Free movement of capital is a real benefit of the EU, but the UK is actually a net loser because, as ever, we are the only nation that follows the rules. French, German and Spanish companies are buying up our electricity, gas, banks and airports without restriction. Now try and do that in France or Spain - never happens. State intervenes and the deal goes dead.
So, economically and politically, I say go.
However, it is the bigger geo-political message we send by leaving that worries me. A strong (western) Europe is a counterweight to the Russians, Middle East and Asia. If the UK was to leave, think of the propaganda message that gives to Putin, to ISIS, to the next lunatic that come along. We may leave the EU now, but I fear history will look on us unfavourably and we may well end up having to go back into Europe in the future, but in more turbulent times.
So, that's where I am. Short to medium term, economically and politically, leaving is a clear winner. But I worry about the longer term if we do. Mind you, that longer term may be after my lifetime. But maybe not. | | | |
| Cameron's EU on 15:27 - Feb 21 with 944 views | jackonicko |
| Cameron's EU on 15:00 - Feb 21 by londonlisa2001 |
Not at all - I've never met him either. I'm sure I recall him saying he was an out though months ago - perhaps I'm wrong and it was someone else.
Edited to say - of course I could try to be less of a woman and allow jacko to talk for himself ;-) [Post edited 21 Feb 2016 15:03]
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No one seems to have met me. That probably says more about me :)
Yes, Lisa, this did come up a few months ago. I seemed to remember you were more an 'in' back then? | | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:28 - Feb 21 with 942 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:23 - Feb 21 by jackonicko |
I'm still leaning towards out, but undecided.
Cameron's deal is largely pointless. The emergency brakes and child benefit carve outs are for me meaningless. It is I've not seen a lot of commentary on the economic carve outs to understand what it means for the city, but that might be more positive. The statement that 'ever closer union' doesn't apply to the UK I suspect is largely token.
For me, the decision has to be much bigger picture. Politically, I have a serious problem with the democratic deficit in the EU. Unelected, largely socialist beaucrats making decisions in place of elected representatives. And checks and balances coming from 28 member states who can't even agree on a dinner menu, let alone the strategic direction of a 500m people bloc.
Economically, I think Britain would do better outside of the EU. the world is bigger than the EU and for the reasons above, have been hopeless at negotiating free trade agreements. Yay, we have a deal with South Korea but nothing with the US, with China, with India. Switzerland has more free trade deals than the EU. I cannot believe the UK could not do better, particularly without having to pander to 27 other interests. I also believe we re too important as net importers from the EU (to the tune of €57bn a year) to think that the EU would raise tariffs if we left. It just wouldn't happen.
So we get better free movement of goods if we leave. Better control over free movement of people - let's face it, you're not going to need a visa to get to EU states. Free movement of capital is a real benefit of the EU, but the UK is actually a net loser because, as ever, we are the only nation that follows the rules. French, German and Spanish companies are buying up our electricity, gas, banks and airports without restriction. Now try and do that in France or Spain - never happens. State intervenes and the deal goes dead.
So, economically and politically, I say go.
However, it is the bigger geo-political message we send by leaving that worries me. A strong (western) Europe is a counterweight to the Russians, Middle East and Asia. If the UK was to leave, think of the propaganda message that gives to Putin, to ISIS, to the next lunatic that come along. We may leave the EU now, but I fear history will look on us unfavourably and we may well end up having to go back into Europe in the future, but in more turbulent times.
So, that's where I am. Short to medium term, economically and politically, leaving is a clear winner. But I worry about the longer term if we do. Mind you, that longer term may be after my lifetime. But maybe not. |
The third paragraph is where my reticence to vote to stay comes from as I said up thread. Don't agree with all of your analysis but parts of it had me nodding sagely in agreement.
In a completely unrelated bout of careerism, Boris has come out in favour of "leave". | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:37 - Feb 21 with 934 views | dgt73 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:28 - Feb 21 by exiledclaseboy |
The third paragraph is where my reticence to vote to stay comes from as I said up thread. Don't agree with all of your analysis but parts of it had me nodding sagely in agreement.
In a completely unrelated bout of careerism, Boris has come out in favour of "leave". |
Boris has now strategically positioned himself that if Brexit prevails the keys to number 10 will be his. Not as daft as he makes out to be. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:43 - Feb 21 with 927 views | jackonicko |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:37 - Feb 21 by dgt73 |
Boris has now strategically positioned himself that if Brexit prevails the keys to number 10 will be his. Not as daft as he makes out to be. |
Of course. And Theresa has gambled the other way by siding with the 'remain'.
Isn't it tremendous that parliamentarians are using a decision of such huge importance simply to position themselves for the next job.
This is why the referendum is such a bad idea. It's such a complex decision, with huge ramifications for every single person in the country, with so many unknowns of what might happen which ever way we decide, and the people who are leading the debate are actually just thinking about their next role.
Let's hope the theory of the wisdom of crowds holds true. | | | |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:46 - Feb 21 with 920 views | monmouth |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:37 - Feb 21 by dgt73 |
Boris has now strategically positioned himself that if Brexit prevails the keys to number 10 will be his. Not as daft as he makes out to be. |
He's probably also gambling that even if the vote is yes that the PM electorate in the tory party would prefer no, so when the party splits he can position himself as a unite candidate that agonised over the fine margins but finally voted with conscience. That'll possibly be more difficult for a committed 'yesser' to pull off in the civil war, even if yes carries the day. I could, of course be entirely wrong.
Him and Trump. Now that would be funny.
Actually, no. No it wouldn't. |  |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:57 - Feb 21 with 899 views | dgt73 |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:43 - Feb 21 by jackonicko |
Of course. And Theresa has gambled the other way by siding with the 'remain'.
Isn't it tremendous that parliamentarians are using a decision of such huge importance simply to position themselves for the next job.
This is why the referendum is such a bad idea. It's such a complex decision, with huge ramifications for every single person in the country, with so many unknowns of what might happen which ever way we decide, and the people who are leading the debate are actually just thinking about their next role.
Let's hope the theory of the wisdom of crowds holds true. |
A bad idea? What would you suggest then ? Carry on down the road to ruin? And stick 2 fingers up to millions of people. | |
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| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 16:04 - Feb 21 with 894 views | jackonicko |
| Cameron's EU "deal" negotiations. on 15:57 - Feb 21 by dgt73 |
A bad idea? What would you suggest then ? Carry on down the road to ruin? And stick 2 fingers up to millions of people. |
A referendum following 3 months of reasoned debate and analysis, which would include some rational analysis of what the future outside of the EU would actually look like.
Not dog whistle politics and pointless arguments over foreigners and benefits which are so far at the margins of what is actually being decided here as to be hardly worth mentioning.
But we won't get that. Which is why it's a bad idea. This is a massive, massive decision which will have an impact on generations to come. And it's not about whether child benefit is paid at local country indexed levels from 2020. | | | |
| Cameron's EU on 16:06 - Feb 21 with 889 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Cameron's EU on 15:27 - Feb 21 by jackonicko |
No one seems to have met me. That probably says more about me :)
Yes, Lisa, this did come up a few months ago. I seemed to remember you were more an 'in' back then? |
I was more 'in' then than I am now. Partly because I've thought about the economics more over the past few months in anticipation of the vote, and partly because the whole 'renegotiation' issue has made me despair that any real change within the current set up will be nigh on impossible.
Your points re 'out' are very similar to mine - particularly the issue over trade agreements with China, India etc which I mentioned in a previous post. However, you've articulated far better than I did my nervousness over the whole issue of message if we do vote to leave. It's those intangibles that make me instinctively want to stay within the EU. I would add the U.S. to your list of 'Russia, Mudle East and Asia' by the way.
As of now, I am undecided. | | | |
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