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1. It states it is an opinion. Not use some dodgy intent source to pretend it is an intellectual argument 2. I never stated anything about Islamic civilisation in the first place. I merely stated scientific and medical advances were ahead of the West at that point and informed (usually uncredited) a Large part of future understanding in the West.
There is absolutely no point in a reasonable discussion with you.
0
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 10:51 - Jul 7 with 1559 views
About time the American people opposed to the destruction of their historic symbols and rioting and looting took matters in to their own hands, it’s what everyone wants anyway
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 10:40 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
OK
So you can't point to any authentic sources that back up your argument. So you restate your opinion and resort to insults.
Absolutely f*cking typical, and sad.
I watched the first video of the series, Kerouac. It built an argument for the overstatement of the Golden Age's achievements by analysing a character from the Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves films. 14 minutes I won't get back.
There's a reason your opinions are largely misinformed. It's because you rely on YouTube as your source of information. It's not reliable, there are no publishing standards, and the algorithm (another Arab invention) tends to show you things you agree with.
Let's not forget you said the Arab countries were 3rd world until the West came and built their infrastructure. Let's not forget you claimed "no historian ever" said that capitalism has roots in the Golden Age when there's a whole body of literature on it. Now it's "the revolution was overstated" which is based off a YouTube video and no formal education in science, engineering and mathematics.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 10:45 - Jul 7 by Professor
1. It states it is an opinion. Not use some dodgy intent source to pretend it is an intellectual argument 2. I never stated anything about Islamic civilisation in the first place. I merely stated scientific and medical advances were ahead of the West at that point and informed (usually uncredited) a Large part of future understanding in the West.
There is absolutely no point in a reasonable discussion with you.
It seems that all you have to do to render yourself beyond the pale in the "prof"s eyes is ask him to provide some evidence, some sources. Not an unreasonable request given that he likes to rubbish other sources.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:16 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
It seems that all you have to do to render yourself beyond the pale in the "prof"s eyes is ask him to provide some evidence, some sources. Not an unreasonable request given that he likes to rubbish other sources.
Sad...and you teach.
I gave you a credible source. You are a tool. I teach people properly. How to read and interpret the scientific literature (and where relevant legislation) Not to pick up a crappy internet page, to understand what evidence-based understanding is. I teach microbiology, immunology and veterinary public health. Most seem satisfied. Most students who undertake a research project in my group get a 2:1 or first for their project. We take time to ensure they do their best regardless of any background. I have supervised 10 PhD students who have gone onto varied careers from policy advisor, state veterinary services (APHA) to industry and academia. I have worked in many counties. Published many research papers, book chapters and even phone app content. I works with several industrial partners and charities.
Don't tell me what I am.. I have achieved a lot for an illegitimate valleys boy.
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Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:34 - Jul 7 with 1491 views
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 11:14 - Jul 7 by Drizzy
I watched the first video of the series, Kerouac. It built an argument for the overstatement of the Golden Age's achievements by analysing a character from the Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves films. 14 minutes I won't get back.
There's a reason your opinions are largely misinformed. It's because you rely on YouTube as your source of information. It's not reliable, there are no publishing standards, and the algorithm (another Arab invention) tends to show you things you agree with.
Let's not forget you said the Arab countries were 3rd world until the West came and built their infrastructure. Let's not forget you claimed "no historian ever" said that capitalism has roots in the Golden Age when there's a whole body of literature on it. Now it's "the revolution was overstated" which is based off a YouTube video and no formal education in science, engineering and mathematics.
Jesus wept. I am not lecturing at Swansea University, I am not addressing the Oxford Union, I am making an argument on a football forum. I reached for the first video I could find that discussed some of the inaccuracies.
In the first video he uses that film as a launch off...in modern times lots of people have some misconceptions, look at how this character is portrayed in the video and then we'll examine some of those misconceptions. Every video afterwards refers to high quality historical sources, but you wouldn't know because you didn't watch it and won't watch it.
"“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.” - John Stuart Mill
The Algorithim is not an Arabic invention, you imbecile. The word has it's roots in Arabic. Two very different things.
I said no Historian worthy of the name would claim that Capitalism has it's roots in the Islamic Golden age, and I stand by that statement.
The Islamic Golden Age destroyed economic activity is the truth, a large reason why Europe experienced a 'Dark Age' was because they were constantly under military attack from the Arabic Muslim armies and trade around the Mediterranean virtually ground to a halt due to the Arab blockade.
Yes Arabic achievements have been exaggerated. Take the philosopher Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad ibn Ṭarkhan ibn Awzalaghal-Farabi for example. His work emerges after the Muslim conquest, his writings critique Aristotle. He is aware of Aristotle because the Arabs have come into possession of great libraries in the cities that they have conquered and have had the texts translated by Christians.
There is no doubt he is a great philosopher but there is also no doubt that the Islamic Golden Age has it's intellectual roots in earlier civilisations.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:30 - Jul 7 by Professor
I gave you a credible source. You are a tool. I teach people properly. How to read and interpret the scientific literature (and where relevant legislation) Not to pick up a crappy internet page, to understand what evidence-based understanding is. I teach microbiology, immunology and veterinary public health. Most seem satisfied. Most students who undertake a research project in my group get a 2:1 or first for their project. We take time to ensure they do their best regardless of any background. I have supervised 10 PhD students who have gone onto varied careers from policy advisor, state veterinary services (APHA) to industry and academia. I have worked in many counties. Published many research papers, book chapters and even phone app content. I works with several industrial partners and charities.
Don't tell me what I am.. I have achieved a lot for an illegitimate valleys boy.
Good for you, sounds like a life well lived and a lot achieved.
It doesn't change the fact that you reacted to being asked for sources the way you did and have made statements, about a subject that you appear to know little.
There have been some ridiculous statements on this thread; - The Arabs laid the foundations of Capitalism and showed us a more sustainable model of Capitalism - The Arabs invented banking - The numerals we use are Arabic - Algorithims were invented by Arabs.
All false, empty statements that can't be backed up with evidence., and that's whose side you have taken in this debate.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:40 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
Good for you, sounds like a life well lived and a lot achieved.
It doesn't change the fact that you reacted to being asked for sources the way you did and have made statements, about a subject that you appear to know little.
There have been some ridiculous statements on this thread; - The Arabs laid the foundations of Capitalism and showed us a more sustainable model of Capitalism - The Arabs invented banking - The numerals we use are Arabic - Algorithims were invented by Arabs.
All false, empty statements that can't be backed up with evidence., and that's whose side you have taken in this debate.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell
Banking was taking place all over the ancient world; China, India, Sumeria (pre-Islam), Assyria (pre-Islam), Greece, the Roman empire.
When Merchant banks took off in Italy it was the Italians, Jews and Greeks who got into banking in a big way and innovated. The Jews in particular were trailblazers on account of usury not being a sin in their religion. The Italian Catholics passed new laws and told lies to themselves to get around the fact that their God forbade them to charge interest. Islam was not involved at all as charging interest is a sin in their religion.
It is literally ridiculous that you put forward banking as an achievement of the Islamic Golden Age (which is what we were discussing)
...and as for your assertion that the Arabs invented free trade(!), what information are you basing that on.
The notion of a free trade system encompassing multiple sovereign states originated in a rudimentary form in 16th century Imperial Spain. American jurist Arthur Nussbaum noted that Spanish theologian Francisco de Vitoria was
"the first to set forth the notions (though not the terms) of freedom of commerce and freedom of the seas".
Vitoria made the case under principles of jus gentium. However, it was two early British economists Adam Smith and David Ricardo who later developed the idea of free trade into its modern and recognizable form. Economists who advocated free trade believed trade was the reason why certain civilizations prospered economically. For example, Smith pointed to increased trading as being the reason for the flourishing of not just Mediterranean cultures such as Egypt, Greece and Rome, but also of Bengal (East India) and China. The great prosperity of the Netherlands after throwing off Spanish Imperial rule and pursuing a policy of free trade made the free trade/mercantilist dispute the most important question in economics for centuries. Free trade policies have battled with mercantilist, protectionist, isolationist, socialist, populist and other policies over the centuries.
The Ottoman Empire had liberal free trade policies by the 18th century, with origins in capitulations of the Ottoman Empire, dating back to the first commercial treaties signed with France in 1536 and taken further with capitulations in 1673, in 1740 which lowered duties to only 3% for imports and exports and in 1790. Ottoman free trade policies were praised by British economists advocating free trade such as J. R. McCulloch in his Dictionary of Commerce (1834), but criticized by British politicians opposing free trade such as Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, who cited the Ottoman Empire as "an instance of the injury done by unrestrained competition" in the 1846 Corn Laws debate, arguing that it destroyed what had been "some of the finest manufactures of the world" in 1812.
Average tariff rates in France, the United Kingdom and the United States Trade in colonial America was regulated by the British mercantile system through the Acts of Trade and Navigation. Until the 1760s, few colonists openly advocated for free trade, in part because regulations were not strictly enforced (New England was famous for smuggling), but also because colonial merchants did not want to compete with foreign goods and shipping. According to historian Oliver Dickerson, a desire for free trade was not one of the causes of the American Revolution.
"The idea that the basic mercantile practices of the eighteenth century were wrong", wrote Dickerson, "was not a part of the thinking of the Revolutionary leaders".
Free trade came to what would become the United States as a result of American Revolutionary War. After the British Parliament issued the Prohibitory Act, blockading colonial ports, the Continental Congress responded by effectively declaring economic independence, opening American ports to foreign trade on 6 April 1776. According to historian John W. Tyler, "free trade had been forced on the Americans, like it or not".
In March 1801, the Pope Pius VII ordered some liberalization of trade to face the economic crisis in the Papal States with the motu proprio Le più colte. Despite this, the export of national corn was forbidden to ensure the food for the Papal States. In Britain, free trade became a central principle practiced by the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846. Large-scale agitation was sponsored by the Anti-Corn Law League. Under the Treaty of Nanking, China opened five treaty ports to world trade in 1843. The first free trade agreement, the Cobden-Chevalier Treaty, was put in place in 1860 between Britain and France which led to successive agreements between other countries in Europe. Many classical liberals, especially in 19th and early 20th century Britain (e.g. John Stuart Mill) and in the United States for much of the 20th century (e.g. Henry Ford and Secretary of State Cordell Hull), believed that free trade promoted peace. Woodrow Wilson included free-trade rhetoric in his "Fourteen Points" speech of 1918: The program of the world's peace, therefore, is our program; and that program, the only possible program, all we see it, is this: The removal, so far as possible, of all economic barriers and the establishment of equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance.
According to economic historian Douglas Irwin, a common myth about United States trade policy is that low tariffs harmed American manufacturers in the early 19th century and then that high tariffs made the United States into a great industrial power in the late 19th century. A review by the Economist of Irwin's 2017 book Clashing over Commerce: A History of US Trade Policy notes:
]Political dynamics would lead people to see a link between tariffs and the economic cycle that was not there. A boom would generate enough revenue for tariffs to fall, and when the bust came pressure would build to raise them again. By the time that happened, the economy would be recovering, giving the impression that tariff cuts caused the crash and the reverse generated the recovery. Mr Irwin also methodically debunks the idea that protectionism made America a great industrial power, a notion believed by some to offer lessons for developing countries today. As its share of global manufacturing powered from 23% in 1870 to 36% in 1913, the admittedly high tariffs of the time came with a cost, estimated at around 0.5% of GDP in the mid-1870s. In some industries, they might have sped up development by a few years. But American growth during its protectionist period was more to do with its abundant resources and openness to people and ideas.
According to Paul Bairoch, since the end of the 18th century the United States has been "the homeland and bastion of modern protectionism". In fact, the United States never adhered to free trade until 1945. For the most part, the Jeffersonians strongly opposed it. In the 19th century, statesmen such as Senator Henry Clay continued Alexander Hamilton's themes within the Whig Party under the name American System. The opposition Democratic Party contested several elections throughout the 1830s, 1840s and 1850s in part over the issue of the tariff and protection of industry.[39] The Democratic Party favoured moderate tariffs used for government revenue only while the Whigs favoured higher protective tariffs to protect favoured industries. The economist Henry Charles Carey became a leading proponent of the American System of economics. This mercantilist American System was opposed by the Democratic Party of Andrew Jackson, Martin Van Buren, John Tyler, James K. Polk, Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan. The fledgling Republican Party led by Abraham Lincoln, who called himself a "Henry Clay tariff Whig", strongly opposed free trade and implemented a 44% tariff during the Civil War, in part to pay for railroad subsidies and for the war effort and in part to protect favoured industries. William McKinley (later to become President of the United States) stated the stance of the Republican Party (which won every election for president from 1868 until 1912, except the two non-consecutive terms of Grover Cleveland) as thus: Under free trade the trader is the master and the producer the slave. Protection is but the law of nature, the law of self-preservation, of self-development, of securing the highest and best destiny of the race of man. [It is said] that protection is immoral [...]. Why, if protection builds up and elevates 63,000,000 [the U.S. population] of people, the influence of those 63,000,000 of people elevates the rest of the world. We cannot take a step in the pathway of progress without benefitting mankind everywhere. Well, they say, 'Buy where you can buy the cheapest'…. Of course, that applies to labour as to everything else. Let me give you a maxim that is a thousand times better than that, and it is the protection maxim: 'Buy where you can pay the easiest.' And that spot of earth is where labour wins its highest rewards.
During the interwar period, economic protectionism took hold in the United States, most famously in the form of the Smoot—Hawley Tariff Act which is credited by economists with the prolonging and worldwide propagation of the Great Depression.:33 From 1934, trade liberalization began to take place through the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act.
Sigh.
You have zero idea what you are talking about.
I can’t be bothered to waste my time other than in quick summary.
You seem to think that banking is inextricably linked to the charging of interest. It’s not. The Arabs used loan fees and partnership agreements (not being funny, but you are presumably aware that there are many Islamic banks operating now - some are huge and very successful). And when you say of free trade ‘this is the standard history most have agreed on’ you actually meant to say ‘here’s an extract from Wikipedia’. Even in your extract it talks of the importance of the Ottomans who took over practices from the earlier caliphates.
Early trading was dominated by the spice trade. The Arabs dominated this trade (taking over from Ethiopia ) trading spices between Asia, Africa and Europe. There’s a reason they introduce Hindu numbers to Europe (which is why we count using Arabic numbers - we call them Arabic because that’s who introduced them to us - via Fibonacci amongst others). The use of banking, bookkeeping and trade agreements all came about out of these trading routes. In Europe, the merchants that traded with the Arabs, in city states such as Venice, took these practices and spread them wider.
No one has said that Arabs invented everything in its finished form, but they dominated trading for centuries and much of what we do these days is based on what started during the period of their dominance.
Now I’m sure that you will link to any number of nonsense or overly simplistic articles and videos. Knock yourself out with your ‘what did the Muslims ever do for us’ rubbish. It’s genuinely laughable.
0
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 13:06 - Jul 7 with 1451 views
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:40 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
Good for you, sounds like a life well lived and a lot achieved.
It doesn't change the fact that you reacted to being asked for sources the way you did and have made statements, about a subject that you appear to know little.
There have been some ridiculous statements on this thread; - The Arabs laid the foundations of Capitalism and showed us a more sustainable model of Capitalism - The Arabs invented banking - The numerals we use are Arabic - Algorithims were invented by Arabs.
All false, empty statements that can't be backed up with evidence., and that's whose side you have taken in this debate.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell
No one said the Arabs ‘invented’ banking or many of the other things you moron.
I said that the systems of banking, bookkeeping and free trade that were introduced into Europe came from the Arabs (which they did).
Numbers as well (which is why they are called Hindu-Arabic numerals). It’s the numbers that facilitated the bookkeeping by the way. And the ability to keep books allowed the development of wider systems of lending money to others (you could record what was going on).
1
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:16 - Jul 7 with 1401 views
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 12:34 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
Jesus wept. I am not lecturing at Swansea University, I am not addressing the Oxford Union, I am making an argument on a football forum. I reached for the first video I could find that discussed some of the inaccuracies.
In the first video he uses that film as a launch off...in modern times lots of people have some misconceptions, look at how this character is portrayed in the video and then we'll examine some of those misconceptions. Every video afterwards refers to high quality historical sources, but you wouldn't know because you didn't watch it and won't watch it.
"“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.” - John Stuart Mill
The Algorithim is not an Arabic invention, you imbecile. The word has it's roots in Arabic. Two very different things.
I said no Historian worthy of the name would claim that Capitalism has it's roots in the Islamic Golden age, and I stand by that statement.
The Islamic Golden Age destroyed economic activity is the truth, a large reason why Europe experienced a 'Dark Age' was because they were constantly under military attack from the Arabic Muslim armies and trade around the Mediterranean virtually ground to a halt due to the Arab blockade.
Yes Arabic achievements have been exaggerated. Take the philosopher Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad ibn Ṭarkhan ibn Awzalaghal-Farabi for example. His work emerges after the Muslim conquest, his writings critique Aristotle. He is aware of Aristotle because the Arabs have come into possession of great libraries in the cities that they have conquered and have had the texts translated by Christians.
There is no doubt he is a great philosopher but there is also no doubt that the Islamic Golden Age has it's intellectual roots in earlier civilisations.
Right. I tried watching it, Kerouac. It's just difficult to take an argument about 8th-century history seriously when it's framed around a character in a 1991 Kevin Costner film.
The first algorithm could have been invented in 2500 BC or 1840 depending on your definition but there's a reason the word in Latin is named after al-Khwarizmi. His work was the first to combine algebraic and geometric solutions (it's unclear whether he was exposed to "Elements" or other Greek texts) to linear and quadratic equations. He wrote out the steps to the calculations using words not symbols making them accessible for issues of law, trade and inheritance. It's one of the most influential practical applications of mathematics.
"There is no doubt he is a great philosopher but there is also no doubt that the Islamic Golden Age has it's intellectual roots in earlier civilisations"
Yes. Much like the development of the West in the Middle Ages and beyond has its roots in the Golden Age. European universities were using al-Khwarizmi's works on arithmetic as the principal mathematical text for around 300 years.
There's a deep irony to the fact you view Islam as an invading and oppressive force in Europe yet this thread was started after the American president made an inflammatory gesture towards Native American people. So much misguided energy to conquests over a thousand years ago with no empathy towards genocides that happened in the last century. You'll never alter your belief in Western exceptionalism. I hope you stick around long enough to see the economic and intellectual centre of gravity move east. Again.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 13:00 - Jul 7 by londonlisa2001
Sigh.
You have zero idea what you are talking about.
I can’t be bothered to waste my time other than in quick summary.
You seem to think that banking is inextricably linked to the charging of interest. It’s not. The Arabs used loan fees and partnership agreements (not being funny, but you are presumably aware that there are many Islamic banks operating now - some are huge and very successful). And when you say of free trade ‘this is the standard history most have agreed on’ you actually meant to say ‘here’s an extract from Wikipedia’. Even in your extract it talks of the importance of the Ottomans who took over practices from the earlier caliphates.
Early trading was dominated by the spice trade. The Arabs dominated this trade (taking over from Ethiopia ) trading spices between Asia, Africa and Europe. There’s a reason they introduce Hindu numbers to Europe (which is why we count using Arabic numbers - we call them Arabic because that’s who introduced them to us - via Fibonacci amongst others). The use of banking, bookkeeping and trade agreements all came about out of these trading routes. In Europe, the merchants that traded with the Arabs, in city states such as Venice, took these practices and spread them wider.
No one has said that Arabs invented everything in its finished form, but they dominated trading for centuries and much of what we do these days is based on what started during the period of their dominance.
Now I’m sure that you will link to any number of nonsense or overly simplistic articles and videos. Knock yourself out with your ‘what did the Muslims ever do for us’ rubbish. It’s genuinely laughable.
While revivalists like Mohammed Naveed insist Islamic Banking is "as old as the religion itself with its principles primarily derived from the Quran", secular historians and Islamic modernists see it as a modern phenomenon or "invented tradition".
Early banking
According to Timur Kuran, by "the tenth century, Islamic law supported credit and investment instruments" that were "as advanced" as anything in the non-Islamic world, but prior to the 19th century there were no "durable" financial institutions "recognizable as banks" in the Muslim world. The first Muslim majority-owned banks did not emerge until the 1920s.
...and by the way, if you don't think usury was vital in the development of Merchant banking you truly don't know what you are talking about.
The Islamic world was left behind and are still playing catch up, the Islamic banks of today basically pull all kinds of tricks to pretend that they are not practicing usury, but usury is what they are practicing. They have had to adapt to catch up.
Call the numerals we use what you want, they are not an Arabic or an Islamic contribution to human civilisation. It is as absurd as me claiming that the British invented tea.
While revivalists like Mohammed Naveed insist Islamic Banking is "as old as the religion itself with its principles primarily derived from the Quran", secular historians and Islamic modernists see it as a modern phenomenon or "invented tradition".
Early banking
According to Timur Kuran, by "the tenth century, Islamic law supported credit and investment instruments" that were "as advanced" as anything in the non-Islamic world, but prior to the 19th century there were no "durable" financial institutions "recognizable as banks" in the Muslim world. The first Muslim majority-owned banks did not emerge until the 1920s.
...and by the way, if you don't think usury was vital in the development of Merchant banking you truly don't know what you are talking about.
The Islamic world was left behind and are still playing catch up, the Islamic banks of today basically pull all kinds of tricks to pretend that they are not practicing usury, but usury is what they are practicing. They have had to adapt to catch up.
Call the numerals we use what you want, they are not an Arabic or an Islamic contribution to human civilisation. It is as absurd as me claiming that the British invented tea.
None of your replies are as funny as the ones where you provide links that support what I’ve already said.
Firstly, I didn’t say Free Trade was an innovation of the Ottoman Empire and your link is irrelevant.
Secondly, in your little extract on ‘there isn’t early Islamic banking’ you missed this:
“ A number of economic concepts and techniques were applied in early Islamic banking, including bills of exchange, partnership (mufawada, including limited partnerships, or mudaraba), and forms of capital (al-mal), capital accumulation (nama al-mal),[49] cheques, promissory notes,[50] trusts (see Waqf),[51] transactional accounts, loaning, ledgers and assignments.[52] Muslim traders are known to have used the cheque or á¹£akk system since the time of Harun al-Rashid (9th century) of the Abbasid Caliphate.[53][52] Organizational enterprises independent from the state also existed in the medieval Islamic world, while the agency institution was also introduced during that time.[54][55] Many of these early capitalist concepts were adopted and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.[49]”
Thicko.
0
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 18:19 - Jul 7 with 1357 views
To be fair to Kerouac, with his inability to recognise his own straw men he must think we're bonkers. Pay attention to his interpretation of other people's posts and you'll notice there's a yawning canyon between what was said and what he thinks was said.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:16 - Jul 7 by Drizzy
Right. I tried watching it, Kerouac. It's just difficult to take an argument about 8th-century history seriously when it's framed around a character in a 1991 Kevin Costner film.
The first algorithm could have been invented in 2500 BC or 1840 depending on your definition but there's a reason the word in Latin is named after al-Khwarizmi. His work was the first to combine algebraic and geometric solutions (it's unclear whether he was exposed to "Elements" or other Greek texts) to linear and quadratic equations. He wrote out the steps to the calculations using words not symbols making them accessible for issues of law, trade and inheritance. It's one of the most influential practical applications of mathematics.
"There is no doubt he is a great philosopher but there is also no doubt that the Islamic Golden Age has it's intellectual roots in earlier civilisations"
Yes. Much like the development of the West in the Middle Ages and beyond has its roots in the Golden Age. European universities were using al-Khwarizmi's works on arithmetic as the principal mathematical text for around 300 years.
There's a deep irony to the fact you view Islam as an invading and oppressive force in Europe yet this thread was started after the American president made an inflammatory gesture towards Native American people. So much misguided energy to conquests over a thousand years ago with no empathy towards genocides that happened in the last century. You'll never alter your belief in Western exceptionalism. I hope you stick around long enough to see the economic and intellectual centre of gravity move east. Again.
I am not doubting the genius of the likes of al-Khwarizmi or al-Biruni, of course there were geniuses in the Islamic world that achieved amazing things. My argument is that the Islamic Golden Age wasn't as nearly as successful and as enlightened as many today would have us believe.
I certainly don't think the religion of Islam has been good for science, I would argue that if the Arabic peoples and the people that the Arabic people conquered had been free of the intellectual straightjacket of Islam, they could have achieved a whole lot more.
Re: genocides that happened in the last century Are you referring to; - The Holocaust (German National Socialists murder 6 million Jews) - The Generalplan Ost (German National Socialists murder approx. 9 million Slavs and Baltic peoples) - The Holodomor (Russian Communists murder 4.5 million Ukrainians) - The Nazi genocide of Poles (German National Socialists murder 2.4 million Poles) - The Cambodian genocide (Communists murder 2.2million Cambodians) - The Kazakh genocide (Russian Communists murder 1.5 million Kazakhs) - The Genocide in Bangladesh (Pakistani Muslims murder 2million Bangladeshis, mostly Hindus) - The Armenian genocide (Ottoman Empire, Turkish Muslims, murder 1.3 million Armenian Christians) - The Indonesian genocide (Muslim government murders 1 million Communists and leftists) - The Greek genocide (Turkish Muslims of the Ottoman empire murder 700,000 Greek Orthodox Christians of Anatolia) etc. ???
I only ask because I know not of any American genocide in the last 100 years.
"I hope you stick around long enough to see the economic and intellectual centre of gravity move east. Again."
That statement says everything about you. Are we to take it that you hope for the decline of the West and long to live in a Chinese dominated world rather than an American dominated world?
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 18:17 - Jul 7 by londonlisa2001
None of your replies are as funny as the ones where you provide links that support what I’ve already said.
Firstly, I didn’t say Free Trade was an innovation of the Ottoman Empire and your link is irrelevant.
Secondly, in your little extract on ‘there isn’t early Islamic banking’ you missed this:
“ A number of economic concepts and techniques were applied in early Islamic banking, including bills of exchange, partnership (mufawada, including limited partnerships, or mudaraba), and forms of capital (al-mal), capital accumulation (nama al-mal),[49] cheques, promissory notes,[50] trusts (see Waqf),[51] transactional accounts, loaning, ledgers and assignments.[52] Muslim traders are known to have used the cheque or á¹£akk system since the time of Harun al-Rashid (9th century) of the Abbasid Caliphate.[53][52] Organizational enterprises independent from the state also existed in the medieval Islamic world, while the agency institution was also introduced during that time.[54][55] Many of these early capitalist concepts were adopted and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.[49]”
Thicko.
"Much of the base of it, banking, bookkeeping etc, came from the Arab countries as did the notion of free trade." - Lisa of London
"And when you say of free trade ‘this is the standard history most have agreed on’ you actually meant to say ‘here’s an extract from Wikipedia’. Even in your extract it talks of the importance of the Ottomans who took over practices from the earlier caliphates." - Lisa of London
"Firstly, I didn’t say Free Trade was an innovation of the Ottoman Empire and your link is irrelevant. " - Lisa of London
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 19:45 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
"Much of the base of it, banking, bookkeeping etc, came from the Arab countries as did the notion of free trade." - Lisa of London
"And when you say of free trade ‘this is the standard history most have agreed on’ you actually meant to say ‘here’s an extract from Wikipedia’. Even in your extract it talks of the importance of the Ottomans who took over practices from the earlier caliphates." - Lisa of London
"Firstly, I didn’t say Free Trade was an innovation of the Ottoman Empire and your link is irrelevant. " - Lisa of London
Ah, now I understand your nonsensical links. You think when I say ‘Arabs’ I mean the Ottomans.
The Arab traders I refer to and the Ottoman Empire are quite distinct.
Largely because the Ottoman Empire was Turkish you complete simpleton.
The Ottoman Empire ended up including the Arabs. In much the same way as the Roman Empire included Caerleon.
The Ottoman empire took on aspects of the Arab systems in the same way as the Europeans did. Surely you could have found that out on wiki...
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Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 22:59 - Jul 7 with 1253 views
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 19:36 - Jul 7 by Kerouac
I am not doubting the genius of the likes of al-Khwarizmi or al-Biruni, of course there were geniuses in the Islamic world that achieved amazing things. My argument is that the Islamic Golden Age wasn't as nearly as successful and as enlightened as many today would have us believe.
I certainly don't think the religion of Islam has been good for science, I would argue that if the Arabic peoples and the people that the Arabic people conquered had been free of the intellectual straightjacket of Islam, they could have achieved a whole lot more.
Re: genocides that happened in the last century Are you referring to; - The Holocaust (German National Socialists murder 6 million Jews) - The Generalplan Ost (German National Socialists murder approx. 9 million Slavs and Baltic peoples) - The Holodomor (Russian Communists murder 4.5 million Ukrainians) - The Nazi genocide of Poles (German National Socialists murder 2.4 million Poles) - The Cambodian genocide (Communists murder 2.2million Cambodians) - The Kazakh genocide (Russian Communists murder 1.5 million Kazakhs) - The Genocide in Bangladesh (Pakistani Muslims murder 2million Bangladeshis, mostly Hindus) - The Armenian genocide (Ottoman Empire, Turkish Muslims, murder 1.3 million Armenian Christians) - The Indonesian genocide (Muslim government murders 1 million Communists and leftists) - The Greek genocide (Turkish Muslims of the Ottoman empire murder 700,000 Greek Orthodox Christians of Anatolia) etc. ???
I only ask because I know not of any American genocide in the last 100 years.
"I hope you stick around long enough to see the economic and intellectual centre of gravity move east. Again."
That statement says everything about you. Are we to take it that you hope for the decline of the West and long to live in a Chinese dominated world rather than an American dominated world?
- The Armenian genocide
"I am not doubting the genius of the likes of al-Khwarizmi or al-Biruni, of course there were geniuses in the Islamic world that achieved amazing things."
I think you've been doing exactly that in this entire thread. You've reversed your position every time you learn of a new scientific advancement.
"My argument is that the Islamic Golden Age wasn't as nearly as successful and as enlightened as many today would have us believe."
Based on a series of YouTube videos that nobody takes seriously.
"I certainly don't think the religion of Islam has been good for science"
Aside from the first 400 years of its inception that shaped the development of the West.
I was referring to the Bengali genocide that we've discussed previously. Strange how the deliberate starvation of around 4 million people doesn't make your list. I wonder why?
"Are we to take it that you hope for the decline of the West and long to live in a Chinese dominated world rather than an American dominated world?"
No. It's simply a fact that the economic centre of gravity is shifting eastwards. History shows us that when that happens the intellectual consensus in the world moves along with it. Just like it did when the West became the dominant power.
That's all I have to say as I don't want another tangential debate where you copy and paste irrelevant extracts from Wikipedia and use YouTube videos. You're not going to think anything positive about Islam, I'm not going to ignore the relevance of the scientific advancements. Anyone reading this thread can make up their own mind.
People arguing about texts that were written centuries ago, thus proving Arabs were the innovators and actually believing it. And the only sensible tw*t on the thread is Darran.
It's aĺl fairy stories in my opinion, the Bible and the Qur'an must have been written 88 times by 26 different people ranging between the dinosaurs till now. We even have a Professor arguing about the merits.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 23:54 - Jul 7 by Dippy
People arguing about texts that were written centuries ago, thus proving Arabs were the innovators and actually believing it. And the only sensible tw*t on the thread is Darran.
It's aĺl fairy stories in my opinion, the Bible and the Qur'an must have been written 88 times by 26 different people ranging between the dinosaurs till now. We even have a Professor arguing about the merits.
Planet Swans, the forum of madness
I’ve always liked you Skip.
The first ever recipient of a Planet Swans Lifetime Achievement Award.
Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 22:54 - Jul 7 by londonlisa2001
Ah, now I understand your nonsensical links. You think when I say ‘Arabs’ I mean the Ottomans.
The Arab traders I refer to and the Ottoman Empire are quite distinct.
Largely because the Ottoman Empire was Turkish you complete simpleton.
The Ottoman Empire ended up including the Arabs. In much the same way as the Roman Empire included Caerleon.
The Ottoman empire took on aspects of the Arab systems in the same way as the Europeans did. Surely you could have found that out on wiki...
How ridiculous and what a waste of time that last post was. I know much about the Ottoman empire thanks.
1 - During a debate on the Islamic Golden Age you said Europe took the idea of free trade from the Arabs...you provided no sources to back that statement up.
2 - When I posted up the wiki page, which briefly ran through the history of free trade, you stated that my own source proved that Britain/Europe took free trade from the Ottomans.
3 - That same source touched upon the Capitulations of the Ottoman Empire, I put a link up explaining what that meant. The Ottomans, who were in decline and were aware that Europe was leaving them behind, offered European traders free trade to try to stimulate their economy, The Ottomans then had free trade forced upon them by the European powers ongoing...this was a humiliation;
"According to these capitulations traders entering the Ottoman Empire were exempt from local prosecution, local taxation, local conscription, and the searching of their domicile. The capitulations were initially made during the Ottoman Empire's military dominance, to entice and encourage commercial exchange with Western merchants. However, after military dominance shifted to Europe, significant economic and political advantages were granted to the European powers by the Ottoman Empire."
What happened in Britain afterwards was a discussion on what we could learn from the episode. Britain went the free trade route but did not seek to emulate the Ottoman empire. Over the next 100 years we accelerated away from them and the Ottoman empire eventually collapsed. It was not able to modernise and keep pace precisely because it did not practice efficient capitalism, had no banks worthy of the name and no financial markets, and so could not funnel it's wealth into funding their own industrial revolution in an efficient productive manner. Their inability to create wealth at a quick enough pace ensured that they would never catch up militarily. The British got militarily stronger. This, despite governing most of the Islamic world. Which (by your own logic) should have put them in prime position to take advantage of all of those wonderful innovations you assign to The Islamic Golden Age re: free trade, banking, capitalism and science etc.
This undeniable fact kinda blows your whole argument out of the water I'm afraid, but I am sure that you will remain so very pleased with yourself.
The lesson we need to learn (of course many things are different now, for starters our financial markets are allocating capital from all over the world to companies based all over the world in many more sectors) is that free trade is fantastic from a position of strength. Capital in the UK needs to be allocated correctly and at speed in order to develop new technology and increase productivity, and we must maintain a strong military.
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