| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:20 - Aug 8 with 2238 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 21:31 - Aug 8 by dobjack2 |
Cooper got us into the play offs twice but what is his legacy?
Are our players better players because of him and his coaching team? Have we developed our own players to fill some of the gaps that he utilised loan players for?
Martin’s philosophy is a million miles removed from Coopers which was a million miles more away from Potter so there is little continuity in style. I’m struggling with how his time in charge has improved us as a club. |
This isn’t a Cooper issue though, it’s about the balance between loaning in the likes of Laird and Garner vs blooding Rusheda and Oli Cooper (as examples).
Of course we’d all prefer the local lads like Rodon, Davies and Joe Allen to succeed with the club and bring us big money when they eventually leave. Of course we all know we don’t benefit from developing big clubs players.
The reality as I see it, is that local/academy players making it at our current level is quite rare. Those that do bring us huge money. I don’t see the sense in turning our noses up at players who genuinely improve our team while we aren’t regularly churning out championship level players. |  | |  |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:22 - Aug 8 with 2232 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 21:31 - Aug 8 by dobjack2 |
Cooper got us into the play offs twice but what is his legacy?
Are our players better players because of him and his coaching team? Have we developed our own players to fill some of the gaps that he utilised loan players for?
Martin’s philosophy is a million miles removed from Coopers which was a million miles more away from Potter so there is little continuity in style. I’m struggling with how his time in charge has improved us as a club. |
I reckon he told the club exactly what it wanted to hear in the PowerPoint presentation- develop younger players- Passing Football but he couldn’t deliver that.
Yes we reached the play offs twice but the counter argument has to be if we’d had a Martin style coach instead would we have seen a potter esque mid table finish last season and could we have gone all the way this year? Who knows but Jasper is right - we tried to take a shortcut (with loans instead of buying and developing our own players) and we almost made it but not quite.
Now (without the parachute cash) we are at a disadvantage . Martin hopefully will get us to the edge of the playoffs playing high possession football and maybe we can go that one step better next season. It does seem that we’ve wasted two years just to end up in the same spot but starting from a worse standpoint. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
| |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:43 - Aug 8 with 2176 views | dobjack2 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:20 - Aug 8 by jack247 |
This isn’t a Cooper issue though, it’s about the balance between loaning in the likes of Laird and Garner vs blooding Rusheda and Oli Cooper (as examples).
Of course we’d all prefer the local lads like Rodon, Davies and Joe Allen to succeed with the club and bring us big money when they eventually leave. Of course we all know we don’t benefit from developing big clubs players.
The reality as I see it, is that local/academy players making it at our current level is quite rare. Those that do bring us huge money. I don’t see the sense in turning our noses up at players who genuinely improve our team while we aren’t regularly churning out championship level players. |
It’s not just about our own academy but looking at players playing in leagues 1 and 2 that we can develop. Looking at players that will strengthen the squad without breaking the bank.
I don’t know what the loan fees are and how much wages clubs pay but I would have thought the better prospects don’t come cheap and there are probably strings attached regarding appearances when fit. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:58 - Aug 8 with 2148 views | jasper_T |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:07 - Aug 8 by jack247 |
‘What do we get for losing in the playoffs?’ If that’s a genuine attitude towards ambition then I’m glad the club don’t share it with you. Far better to stack the team with academy players and settle for eventual relegation I guess?
As we’ve already established, not many of our academy graduates have made it at Championship level. Those that have (bar a season at Wycombe) have done it through our first team.
That’s not an attack on our academy, it’s reality. The few that did make it, made it big and earned the club millions. I doubt that’s uncommon among smaller clubs that spent a decent period in the PL and invested in a top level academy. |
Ambition needs to be balanced with long term security and club.squad development. Norwich and Brentford two excellent recent examples of that.
Woodman's return was more conservative than ambitious, we knew his level so using him instead of developing our own prospect was "a no-brainer". When Gibbs-White got injured we looked straight to Kasey Palmer on loan as an experienced figure rather than show faith in Oli Cooper to play backup to Dhanda (since Palmer was no better than Yan in reality). Then came Hourihane in a big show of ambition.
Dan Williams did well against Southampton but even after we sign Downes fans want another loan in to make sure there's no pathway. Whittaker, Joseph and Piroe hearing we still desperately need a proper number 9. £3m invested in players and no one thinks they should play. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 23:18 - Aug 8 with 2108 views | jasper_T |
I'm in favour of Laird coming in because we need immediate cover in that position with Connor out, and the role is important to how Martin had MK Dons playing. Even our senior wingbacks probably aren't quite the right fit, and there isn't an academy player in the same mould (Rushesha's more of a Naughton fullback than a flying winger). Borrowing a specialist he's worked with before is sensible. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 23:25 - Aug 8 with 2085 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I’m with 247 here, having academy players is one thing, having academy players good enough to step up to the grade required is quite another. It’s not just a matter of shoving them in the team and they being automatically good enough.
This is why we have coaches and academy staff, to filter those who can and those who can’t. As he says, there is yet to be an example of a player we haven’t given time to who’s career now suggests we should have.
This talk of management legacy is nonsense. What was Potters legacy? A 10th place finish with the best squad we have had since relegation? Cool.
It’s pie in the sky to think we can replicate what we did 10-15 years ago, I think people really do think that is the standard to be looking at as opposed to realising that the stars aligned in a once in a lifetime period of time. Rangel, Bodde, Dyer, Williams, Britton, Sinclair supplemented with Joe Allen, possibly our greatest youth product of modern times… this crop of players on such little money is not something that happens every day, it’s extraordinarily rare.
I think people forget that even under Brendan we loaned Borini (Chelsea), Nouble (West Ham), Emnes (Boro), Priskin (Watford) and Easter (MK Dons). I’m sure there were strikers in the youth team at the time, yet we correctly decided against it.
We do not have a good squad, we just don’t. Many of our players are limited. It’s about playing a style that suits what you have UNLESS the club decides to back that vision by recruiting for it. You can’t turn any old players into a super passing tiki taka outfit, they have to be very specific players, players we don’t really have.
We simply have to loan in players to fill gaps that cannot adequately be filled from our academy. The only player I think we have done that needlessly is goalkeeper with Woodman, the rest has been pretty spot on. |  |
| |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 06:41 - Aug 9 with 1989 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:58 - Aug 8 by jasper_T |
Ambition needs to be balanced with long term security and club.squad development. Norwich and Brentford two excellent recent examples of that.
Woodman's return was more conservative than ambitious, we knew his level so using him instead of developing our own prospect was "a no-brainer". When Gibbs-White got injured we looked straight to Kasey Palmer on loan as an experienced figure rather than show faith in Oli Cooper to play backup to Dhanda (since Palmer was no better than Yan in reality). Then came Hourihane in a big show of ambition.
Dan Williams did well against Southampton but even after we sign Downes fans want another loan in to make sure there's no pathway. Whittaker, Joseph and Piroe hearing we still desperately need a proper number 9. £3m invested in players and no one thinks they should play. |
Agree with your first sentence. I’ve said as much further up the thread.
If we keep passing over Oli Cooper and he eventually leaves and works his way up to the PL, you’ll have been right. If he ends up at Bolton, Bristol Rovers or Sheffield Wednesday, then maybe it would have been the right decision.
We didn’t have to show ambition and loan Borini. We could have thought long term, given Chad Bond the chance and maybe he’d have been better the following season. We were literally a game away from that scenario last season with Woodman and Guehi. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 08:43 - Aug 9 with 1858 views | glanmORJa_k |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:58 - Aug 8 by jasper_T |
Ambition needs to be balanced with long term security and club.squad development. Norwich and Brentford two excellent recent examples of that.
Woodman's return was more conservative than ambitious, we knew his level so using him instead of developing our own prospect was "a no-brainer". When Gibbs-White got injured we looked straight to Kasey Palmer on loan as an experienced figure rather than show faith in Oli Cooper to play backup to Dhanda (since Palmer was no better than Yan in reality). Then came Hourihane in a big show of ambition.
Dan Williams did well against Southampton but even after we sign Downes fans want another loan in to make sure there's no pathway. Whittaker, Joseph and Piroe hearing we still desperately need a proper number 9. £3m invested in players and no one thinks they should play. |
What it boils down to is that football is a results business and unless any youngster is good enough to come into a team straight away(like Ben Lloyd), any young scholar / young professional is always going to be on the fringes, unless there is an enormous growth / skill spurt from any youngster.
It's not blocking the pathway of a young professional, its about results and not taking chances where poor performances / defeats heap more pressure from the fans onto the head coach. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 09:20 - Aug 9 with 1805 views | Whiterockin |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 08:43 - Aug 9 by glanmORJa_k |
What it boils down to is that football is a results business and unless any youngster is good enough to come into a team straight away(like Ben Lloyd), any young scholar / young professional is always going to be on the fringes, unless there is an enormous growth / skill spurt from any youngster.
It's not blocking the pathway of a young professional, its about results and not taking chances where poor performances / defeats heap more pressure from the fans onto the head coach. |
Ben is a fantastic prospect but to say he is good enough straight away is stretching it. He was in the squad for the friendly and played because of players out with covid and injuries. When the squad is settled he is unlikely to feature in the league this season but possibly make the squad in the Cup. Don't heap pressure on him too soon. |  | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 10:04 - Aug 9 with 1743 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 09:20 - Aug 9 by Whiterockin |
Ben is a fantastic prospect but to say he is good enough straight away is stretching it. He was in the squad for the friendly and played because of players out with covid and injuries. When the squad is settled he is unlikely to feature in the league this season but possibly make the squad in the Cup. Don't heap pressure on him too soon. |
He’s 16. I think it was Tate that said he’s a great prospect and there is a plan in place for him but it doesn’t involve first team football this early. That sounds sensible to be honest. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 11:41 - Aug 9 with 1629 views | jasper_T |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 06:41 - Aug 9 by jack247 |
Agree with your first sentence. I’ve said as much further up the thread.
If we keep passing over Oli Cooper and he eventually leaves and works his way up to the PL, you’ll have been right. If he ends up at Bolton, Bristol Rovers or Sheffield Wednesday, then maybe it would have been the right decision.
We didn’t have to show ambition and loan Borini. We could have thought long term, given Chad Bond the chance and maybe he’d have been better the following season. We were literally a game away from that scenario last season with Woodman and Guehi. |
We've been buying in players who are at, or will wind up at, that same League One level. At least when its our own academy players making that grade we stand to benefit financially in the future (up to 5% of future fees as training compensation), haven't had to shell out a fee or big wages, and the reputation of our academy for being able to produce players of that quality improves (helping future players find better loan destinations).
And how many of our new signings talked about the open pathway to first team football being a factor in their decision to sign? That's something you have to continue to demonstrate, not just talk about. Blackburn's bench was all kids on Saturday. Bournemouth had 10 academy products in their matchday squad.
Literally a game away last season, and in that game we were a million miles away. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 12:15 - Aug 9 with 1552 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 11:41 - Aug 9 by jasper_T |
We've been buying in players who are at, or will wind up at, that same League One level. At least when its our own academy players making that grade we stand to benefit financially in the future (up to 5% of future fees as training compensation), haven't had to shell out a fee or big wages, and the reputation of our academy for being able to produce players of that quality improves (helping future players find better loan destinations).
And how many of our new signings talked about the open pathway to first team football being a factor in their decision to sign? That's something you have to continue to demonstrate, not just talk about. Blackburn's bench was all kids on Saturday. Bournemouth had 10 academy products in their matchday squad.
Literally a game away last season, and in that game we were a million miles away. |
That’s the point though. If you think we were a million miles away despite being in the playoff final… I can only imagine how far away you think we will be in the next decade relying on our academy and no loans, we won’t be in the same galaxy. | |
| |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 13:41 - Aug 9 with 1446 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 11:41 - Aug 9 by jasper_T |
We've been buying in players who are at, or will wind up at, that same League One level. At least when its our own academy players making that grade we stand to benefit financially in the future (up to 5% of future fees as training compensation), haven't had to shell out a fee or big wages, and the reputation of our academy for being able to produce players of that quality improves (helping future players find better loan destinations).
And how many of our new signings talked about the open pathway to first team football being a factor in their decision to sign? That's something you have to continue to demonstrate, not just talk about. Blackburn's bench was all kids on Saturday. Bournemouth had 10 academy products in their matchday squad.
Literally a game away last season, and in that game we were a million miles away. |
This was a conversation about loaning PL prospects vs blooding our own academy players regardless of the impact it has on the team.
If a player spends a season with us then Liverpool or Chelsea sell him for £15m, we’ve effectively had a £15m player in the Championship (minus a bit for big club inflation and clubs buying potential).
We have demonstrated that with Rodon, James, McBurnie, Roberts. Before the PL Davies, Allen, MacDonald, Jazz. Players that are good enough get their opportunities. We can’t just play academy graduates to make the academy look good at the detriment of the team.
Wouldn’t you take being in the playoff final now, even if it was against a much better team? Putting the style of play aside, that’s what we accomplished last season. We’d have all jumped at that 12 months ago.
Edit - Davies wasn’t before PL, doesn’t really change the point though. [Post edited 9 Aug 2021 13:59]
| | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:18 - Aug 9 with 1353 views | jasper_T |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 13:41 - Aug 9 by jack247 |
This was a conversation about loaning PL prospects vs blooding our own academy players regardless of the impact it has on the team.
If a player spends a season with us then Liverpool or Chelsea sell him for £15m, we’ve effectively had a £15m player in the Championship (minus a bit for big club inflation and clubs buying potential).
We have demonstrated that with Rodon, James, McBurnie, Roberts. Before the PL Davies, Allen, MacDonald, Jazz. Players that are good enough get their opportunities. We can’t just play academy graduates to make the academy look good at the detriment of the team.
Wouldn’t you take being in the playoff final now, even if it was against a much better team? Putting the style of play aside, that’s what we accomplished last season. We’d have all jumped at that 12 months ago.
Edit - Davies wasn’t before PL, doesn’t really change the point though. [Post edited 9 Aug 2021 13:59]
|
Chelsea have sold Guehi for £20m based on what he might become more than what he was last season. He wasn't a £20m player to us because 1) he spent half his time here adapting and developing and 2) we never see any financial return on any time/opportunity investment. We've not "effectively" had a £20m player at all. He might end up worth that to Palace who hold his registration and play in a league where that's an affordable figure. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:44 - Aug 9 with 1331 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:18 - Aug 9 by jasper_T |
Chelsea have sold Guehi for £20m based on what he might become more than what he was last season. He wasn't a £20m player to us because 1) he spent half his time here adapting and developing and 2) we never see any financial return on any time/opportunity investment. We've not "effectively" had a £20m player at all. He might end up worth that to Palace who hold his registration and play in a league where that's an affordable figure. |
On the pitch, not as a saleable asset.
He spent a lot of his first half season adapting and developing. Last season he was solid throughout.
All about opinions. Mine is id rather us have the Guehis, Brewsters, Borinis etc because they help us compete with the likes of Bournemouth. At the same time, if an academy player merits game time, then I’d absolutely want them in the team.
What I’m not in favour of, is playing academy graduates because they’ve been waiting a while, or sacrificing league position to blood players that will end up in league one or two anyway. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:53 - Aug 9 with 1309 views | jackrmee |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:44 - Aug 9 by jack247 |
On the pitch, not as a saleable asset.
He spent a lot of his first half season adapting and developing. Last season he was solid throughout.
All about opinions. Mine is id rather us have the Guehis, Brewsters, Borinis etc because they help us compete with the likes of Bournemouth. At the same time, if an academy player merits game time, then I’d absolutely want them in the team.
What I’m not in favour of, is playing academy graduates because they’ve been waiting a while, or sacrificing league position to blood players that will end up in league one or two anyway. |
I agree, but it's a balance.
I also don't agree with playing loan players simply because they are "My signing", from a managers point of view, or because of pressure from the loaning club.
2 or 3 loans I think is fine, as long as they are good enough to improve our first XI.
If we are loaning a player who is of similar, or lower quality to our young players, then that is of course pointless.
If the loanee improves us, in this moment, then I agree with bringing them in.
Unless our young player is absolutely and completely ready for playing in the championhip, then I think a loanee is always an option. |  |
| |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 19:18 - Aug 9 with 1195 views | jack247 |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 15:53 - Aug 9 by jackrmee |
I agree, but it's a balance.
I also don't agree with playing loan players simply because they are "My signing", from a managers point of view, or because of pressure from the loaning club.
2 or 3 loans I think is fine, as long as they are good enough to improve our first XI.
If we are loaning a player who is of similar, or lower quality to our young players, then that is of course pointless.
If the loanee improves us, in this moment, then I agree with bringing them in.
Unless our young player is absolutely and completely ready for playing in the championhip, then I think a loanee is always an option. |
100% with you there.
Absolutely no point in a loanee keeping one of our academy prospects, or any player we’ve got on a permanent contract, out of the team if they aren’t substantially better. Also not suggesting they all improve our team. Some quite blatantly don’t. Ideally, we’d all love a conveyor belt of local youngsters being promoted to the first team and eventually moved on for big money.
In reality, the ‘developing other clubs players at the expense of our own’ is a bit of a fallacy. Other than Alex Samuels season at Wycombe and Norrington-Davies’ on loan at Stoke, every academy player that’s gone on to have a Championship or PL career, since we got to the Championship under Martinez, has done so via our first team. Recent history strongly suggests that if the player is that good, they will get their chance with us. | | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:26 - Aug 9 with 1045 views | Rock |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:58 - Aug 8 by jasper_T |
Ambition needs to be balanced with long term security and club.squad development. Norwich and Brentford two excellent recent examples of that.
Woodman's return was more conservative than ambitious, we knew his level so using him instead of developing our own prospect was "a no-brainer". When Gibbs-White got injured we looked straight to Kasey Palmer on loan as an experienced figure rather than show faith in Oli Cooper to play backup to Dhanda (since Palmer was no better than Yan in reality). Then came Hourihane in a big show of ambition.
Dan Williams did well against Southampton but even after we sign Downes fans want another loan in to make sure there's no pathway. Whittaker, Joseph and Piroe hearing we still desperately need a proper number 9. £3m invested in players and no one thinks they should play. |
Kinda all over the map in this thread, Jasper. Citing Norwich and Brentford are excellent choices in terms of what we should aspire to be as a club, and based on the decisionmakers brought in and the players we’ve signed it appears we are attempting to replicate their success. The players you mentioned are good examples of that.
But using those two clubs as paramours of blooding their academy youngsters and giving them an opportunity to play doesn’t make any sense in reality. Norwich have had a few exceptional young players come through their academy recently and given an opportunity to play in their first team, and those players took advantage and displayed from the beginning massive amounts of talent and ability, not just potential. Cantwell, Aarons and Lewis are all superb players, and well deserving of a place within the XI from the start.
But Norwich and Brentford are known for their smart recruitment, more than their academies, and for good reason, as they scout and sign massive amounts of young players with ability and potential from all over the world to great success. They don’t just hand starts to their youngsters because they are from the area, it has to be earned, competing with a lot of other players they have brought in. Norwich continues to reinvest their money earned in foreign and domestic talent, both permanent and loaned-in, mostly young players who are actively competing with their academy for playing time. They are not handing starts to their youngsters just for the sake of it. Brentford famously doesn’t even have an academy anymore.
I am no fan of Cooper, whatsoever, for many reasons but I don’t think our academy is stock full of quality footballers just waiting in the wings for an opportunity. I don’t like the idea of constantly loaning in young players from big clubs just for the sake of it, but I also don’t think their presence has been keeping any of our own out. They have to earn it, and so far the ones who have the ability have gotten the opportunity, Norrington-Davies excepted.
We have one of the most successful academies out there, as is documented, and the cream rises to the top. The likes of Alex Samuel, who was awful in the Championship and League One, and Josh Sheehan, who has been a useful lower league player but not cut out for the levels above, are not really cause for castigating our club on this. |  | | |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 22:39 - Aug 9 with 1018 views | Rock |
| Swansea City close to securing two new signings over the next 48 hours on 19:31 - Aug 8 by jack247 |
There we go. Norrington-Davies is a fair example. He goes out on loan every season, but was in the Championship last season.
I had to google Marley Watkins. He left us in 2007. Hard to say if the SPL is as good as the top half of the Championship. I wouldn’t say so.
Not a knock on the academy at all, just an observation that those that don’t get their chance in the first team seldom go on to have Championship level careers anyway, |
Norrington-Davies is definitely the big loss for our academy, quite surprising he was released at 16.
Very good player, especially at this level, and someone who has clear physical attributes that were evident by that stage in his development. Bad decision to just let him go for nothing when we keep so many who are clearly not going to make it. This stuff obviously happens, but given our focus on bringing youth through and the success we have had doing that, it doesn’t really make much sense why he would have been cut loose right as he was ready to transition into senior football. Either way, I hope the club learned from their mistake there.
Doesn’t totally fit the quintessential Swansea mould of a footballer, but neither do so many of our prospects that we keep on at inflated wages, seemingly just for the numbers more than anything. His success away from the club should be a lesson for us and we have different leadership making those decisions now than when he was let go, so the hope is it doesn’t happen again. A club our size cannot afford to just give away players of his calibre, much less when we bring in so many kids released from big clubs. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
