| A bit of perspective and entertainment 10:49 - Nov 28 with 5186 views | RichardO |
I'm using Cooper's Forest as a comparison for the last six games given Martin and him are in similar positions new manager at their clubs
Swansea won 3 lost 2 and drawn 1 scored 10 conceded 9..... 10 points
Forest won 1 lost 0 and drawn 5 scored conceded 3....8 points.
I would rather watch a game under Martin than Cooper, nice to have the ups and downs of the game rather than grinding out boring draws and we even get more points.
Still relatively early days yet, Martin still has to learn the pro and cons of his players in a game enviroment in a Championship league that he is also new to. [Post edited 28 Nov 2021 11:32]
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:21 - Nov 28 with 2872 views | Badlands |
100%
If the stands had cheered our passing instead of moaning I think the players would have been far more positive. |  |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:42 - Nov 28 with 2852 views | Whiterockin |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:21 - Nov 28 by Badlands |
100%
If the stands had cheered our passing instead of moaning I think the players would have been far more positive. |
The last 2 home games the crowd have been unbelievably quiet. |  | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 19:13 - Nov 28 with 2753 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Forest have played 2 of the 3 relegated Premier League teams in that 5 though, which is why handpicking games is never the way to go. There is a reason you didn’t use both managers full-season so far.
Steve Cooper: Played 12. Won 5. Drawn 6. Lost 1.
1.42 goals scored per match. 1.75 points per match.
…….
Russell Martin: Played 20. Won 7. Drawn 6. Lost 7.
1.33 goals scored per match. 1.38 points per match. |  |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 19:24 - Nov 28 with 2738 views | vetchonian |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:21 - Nov 28 by Badlands |
100%
If the stands had cheered our passing instead of moaning I think the players would have been far more positive. |
the Reading fans cheered Naughtons passing | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:03 - Nov 28 with 2676 views | Dr_Parnassus |
It’s just not a marker of a good performance for me. It’s not that entertaining to see 800 5 yard passes played slowly and negatively with the sole purpose to try and keep the ball away from the opposition as opposed to looking to attack them. That’s not football in my eyes.
Excitement in football is intent, purpose, intensity and attacking. Not ponderously knocking the ball around the back in a glorified training drill to say at the end of the game “look how many times we passed it, aren’t we great”. Because the answer will be “no, horrifically dull in fact”, as we have seen and been told recently.
The only way in which possession becomes an important stat, is if your true markers for success are in proportion to that share of the ball.
Real measures of performance are how many chances we created, shots we took, saves we forced and of course the opposite, chances we conceded, shots we allowed, saves that we were forced to make.
So if we are to celebrate having 80% possession, then we should really be having 80% of the shots and chances. If that happens then possession can start to be important and a marker for success.
Because how often are we seeing 70% possession and the opposition having more shots on goal than us?
Often. | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:11 - Nov 28 with 2666 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 19:13 - Nov 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Forest have played 2 of the 3 relegated Premier League teams in that 5 though, which is why handpicking games is never the way to go. There is a reason you didn’t use both managers full-season so far.
Steve Cooper: Played 12. Won 5. Drawn 6. Lost 1.
1.42 goals scored per match. 1.75 points per match.
…….
Russell Martin: Played 20. Won 7. Drawn 6. Lost 7.
1.33 goals scored per match. 1.38 points per match. |
Only picked the last 6 games for current form, a bit lazy on my part no ulterior motives, on reflection of your stats remembering Cooper had a good start was not in my mind at time of writing.
Just wanted to point out the advantage of trying to win and control games after so many years of trying not to lose games and nicking it when we could.
It has been nice having something to get the crowd going, shame that in yesterdays game the joys were so short lived but happy to support the team and see what Martin can come up with as he has some work to do. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:27 - Nov 28 with 2642 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:03 - Nov 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s just not a marker of a good performance for me. It’s not that entertaining to see 800 5 yard passes played slowly and negatively with the sole purpose to try and keep the ball away from the opposition as opposed to looking to attack them. That’s not football in my eyes.
Excitement in football is intent, purpose, intensity and attacking. Not ponderously knocking the ball around the back in a glorified training drill to say at the end of the game “look how many times we passed it, aren’t we great”. Because the answer will be “no, horrifically dull in fact”, as we have seen and been told recently.
The only way in which possession becomes an important stat, is if your true markers for success are in proportion to that share of the ball.
Real measures of performance are how many chances we created, shots we took, saves we forced and of course the opposite, chances we conceded, shots we allowed, saves that we were forced to make.
So if we are to celebrate having 80% possession, then we should really be having 80% of the shots and chances. If that happens then possession can start to be important and a marker for success.
Because how often are we seeing 70% possession and the opposition having more shots on goal than us?
Often. |
I agreed with you, Martin did try and change things by putting Ntcham in the deep midfielders roll and we were able to get the ball forward much quicker and effectively but revert to familiar formation after school boy mistake for their first goal maybe because his deep sitting partner hasn't got the pace to carry out the roll properly hence the need for Downes , Smith and last year Fulton to cover for him. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 21:17 - Nov 28 with 2594 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:11 - Nov 28 by RichardO |
Only picked the last 6 games for current form, a bit lazy on my part no ulterior motives, on reflection of your stats remembering Cooper had a good start was not in my mind at time of writing.
Just wanted to point out the advantage of trying to win and control games after so many years of trying not to lose games and nicking it when we could.
It has been nice having something to get the crowd going, shame that in yesterdays game the joys were so short lived but happy to support the team and see what Martin can come up with as he has some work to do. |
That’s the illusion with possession though, people think it shows that you are trying to win the game when in fact you are often using it as a defensive tactic to not allow the opposition to attack.
I haven’t checked for ages but I’d be willing to bet anything that we had more goal attempts last year. To me that shows a greater intent to win a match.
Stand by. | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 21:27 - Nov 28 with 2585 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Goal attempts. First 20 games last season: 220
Goal attempts. First 20 games this season: 196 | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 22:35 - Nov 28 with 2540 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 21:27 - Nov 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Goal attempts. First 20 games last season: 220
Goal attempts. First 20 games this season: 196 |
To be fair for the first 20 games last season we didn't have Houirane and were on track for automatic promotion if my memory is right but my memory ain't so good. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 01:22 - Nov 29 with 2483 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 22:35 - Nov 28 by RichardO |
To be fair for the first 20 games last season we didn't have Houirane and were on track for automatic promotion if my memory is right but my memory ain't so good. |
You did say “last couple of years” though. So assumed you meant that the manager didn’t go out to attack the opposition as opposed to just not liking Hourihane.
For reference…
Goal attempts. Last 20 league games last season: 209
We are less attacking this season without question. We just keep the ball in non dangerous areas for a long time.
Well not dangerous for the opposition defence that is, sometimes dangerous for ours. | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 09:42 - Nov 29 with 2413 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 01:22 - Nov 29 by Dr_Parnassus |
You did say “last couple of years” though. So assumed you meant that the manager didn’t go out to attack the opposition as opposed to just not liking Hourihane.
For reference…
Goal attempts. Last 20 league games last season: 209
We are less attacking this season without question. We just keep the ball in non dangerous areas for a long time.
Well not dangerous for the opposition defence that is, sometimes dangerous for ours. |
Sorry just checked and didn't say "the last couple of years"
but said "after so many years," still early in Martin's tenure so will wait and see how things pan out.
I did agreed with you about the possession and the need to get the ball up the field earlier before defenses get organised or at pace to move the opposition around.
As I said earlier Martin still has to learn the pro and cons of his players in a game enviroment in a Championship league that he is also new to. [Post edited 29 Nov 2021 9:54]
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 11:02 - Nov 29 with 2348 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 09:42 - Nov 29 by RichardO |
Sorry just checked and didn't say "the last couple of years"
but said "after so many years," still early in Martin's tenure so will wait and see how things pan out.
I did agreed with you about the possession and the need to get the ball up the field earlier before defenses get organised or at pace to move the opposition around.
As I said earlier Martin still has to learn the pro and cons of his players in a game enviroment in a Championship league that he is also new to. [Post edited 29 Nov 2021 9:54]
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Last couple of years, after so many years - they are essentially meaning the same thing.
You are saying we are going out to win games more under Martin than over previous 'x' amount of years. Except we aren't, this is the least attacking Championship side we have had since maybe Sousa?
Our possession stats are tricking an awful lot of supporters. | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:28 - Nov 29 with 2305 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 11:02 - Nov 29 by Dr_Parnassus |
Last couple of years, after so many years - they are essentially meaning the same thing.
You are saying we are going out to win games more under Martin than over previous 'x' amount of years. Except we aren't, this is the least attacking Championship side we have had since maybe Sousa?
Our possession stats are tricking an awful lot of supporters. |
A couple are two and last number of years can mean a lot more so they are not essentially the same unless you somehow want to interpret them that way.
There are styles of playing which people prefer to watch(The winning bit helps),I prefer the high press when it is done properly but that leads to teams having to work out how to beat it and given the poor defending on the weekend Reading did just that(It might have something to do with the limitation in the team picked) .
I'm not a Martin fan but given the poor performance in the play off final I am quite prepared to see how the season progresses. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:39 - Nov 29 with 2298 views | YouBackJastard |
Great thread. Watched the full match of West Brom and Forest and it was the most boring game I’ve seen all year. I’d say the Barnsley first half is the only time this entire season I was tempted to snooze through a match.
Most people would agree a match where their team has 74% possession, 19 shots, 10 on target and two goals is a success, while 55% possession with one shot on target and zero goals against a team out of form and known to avoid possession in favour of a direct pursuit who have a red card for a long period of the second half is a failure. Only one of these teams left with a point. It’s tough to argue with people who only tune in after the final whistle has blown. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:56 - Nov 29 with 2283 views | vetchonian |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:39 - Nov 29 by YouBackJastard |
Great thread. Watched the full match of West Brom and Forest and it was the most boring game I’ve seen all year. I’d say the Barnsley first half is the only time this entire season I was tempted to snooze through a match.
Most people would agree a match where their team has 74% possession, 19 shots, 10 on target and two goals is a success, while 55% possession with one shot on target and zero goals against a team out of form and known to avoid possession in favour of a direct pursuit who have a red card for a long period of the second half is a failure. Only one of these teams left with a point. It’s tough to argue with people who only tune in after the final whistle has blown. |
Remind me how many points did we come away with?
74% possession 19 shots 10 on target and 2 goals is all well and good if that means teh team with less possession also score less goals
Strangley though whilst we have managed to dominate the possesison in most of our games we have failed to turn that into points....points won are the barometer of success for me..that said Satudays game was entertaining with there being 5 goals | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:51 - Nov 29 with 2262 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:56 - Nov 29 by vetchonian |
Remind me how many points did we come away with?
74% possession 19 shots 10 on target and 2 goals is all well and good if that means teh team with less possession also score less goals
Strangley though whilst we have managed to dominate the possesison in most of our games we have failed to turn that into points....points won are the barometer of success for me..that said Satudays game was entertaining with there being 5 goals |
I think we agree that possession doesn't equate to success
Arsenal struggled in the earlier part of the season plenty of possession but poor results they have turn it around so hopefully we can,
Seeing us struggle for possession over a number of years (not two) at home have meant people not wanting to renewing season tickets(and that was before CoVid).
Work in progress for Martin and it remains to be seen if he can make a sucess of it. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 14:36 - Nov 29 with 2222 views | NotLoyal |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:51 - Nov 29 by RichardO |
I think we agree that possession doesn't equate to success
Arsenal struggled in the earlier part of the season plenty of possession but poor results they have turn it around so hopefully we can,
Seeing us struggle for possession over a number of years (not two) at home have meant people not wanting to renewing season tickets(and that was before CoVid).
Work in progress for Martin and it remains to be seen if he can make a sucess of it. |
I thought our season ticket sales got better year on after relegation ?
Could be wrong though. |  |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 14:43 - Nov 29 with 2219 views | vetchonian |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 13:51 - Nov 29 by RichardO |
I think we agree that possession doesn't equate to success
Arsenal struggled in the earlier part of the season plenty of possession but poor results they have turn it around so hopefully we can,
Seeing us struggle for possession over a number of years (not two) at home have meant people not wanting to renewing season tickets(and that was before CoVid).
Work in progress for Martin and it remains to be seen if he can make a sucess of it. |
I think the issue is more to do with quality of football the winning of games that we had become used to prior to Monks appointment. It all went pear shaped and whilst we enjoyed our highest PL finish under Monks stewardship the damage was being done to our fotballing philosphy we then entered a downward spiral in an attempt to sustain our PL status, too many changes of managers, bad recruitent led to some poof football....the last couple of season in the PL were aweful to watch....
Again there is this fixation with possession it would be interesting to see the possession stats under Martinez and the shots per game too...
I certainly is a work in progress under Martin but I dont agree that we should be waiting for tw to three windows...we have already shown this season we can beat sides when we move the ball forwards at pace. | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 14:47 - Nov 29 with 2218 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 14:36 - Nov 29 by NotLoyal |
I thought our season ticket sales got better year on after relegation ?
Could be wrong though. |
You could be right.Sure someone will come up with the figures. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 15:25 - Nov 29 with 2198 views | YouBackJastard |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 12:56 - Nov 29 by vetchonian |
Remind me how many points did we come away with?
74% possession 19 shots 10 on target and 2 goals is all well and good if that means teh team with less possession also score less goals
Strangley though whilst we have managed to dominate the possesison in most of our games we have failed to turn that into points....points won are the barometer of success for me..that said Satudays game was entertaining with there being 5 goals |
Our coaching staff set us up well enough to win the game. The game was entirely lost because our defence slept after kick off, TWICE which is beyond unacceptable, and an offside Andy Carroll goal. We had several clear cut chances in the second half that nobody managed to scramble in due to Reading holding ten men in their box. Martin hardly sat back and allowed the game to escape, he took off a centreback for a striker and pushed men forward. We even started two huge defenders to counteract Carroll’s threat, which I’m sure many on this site were ecstatic about given the nonsense that’s been thrown Naughton and Manning’s way about not being big enough to play at the back.
The point of playing football that doesn’t rely on luck is that the results will become more consistent and come with time. It’s fine if you want to ignore the stats and only stare at a league table, but it’s evident what we’re building here and don’t act like a victim if people call you out for never taking the bigger picture into account. | | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 15:47 - Nov 29 with 2182 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 21:27 - Nov 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Goal attempts. First 20 games last season: 220
Goal attempts. First 20 games this season: 196 |
Cooper had 12 months to establish "Cooperball" and always gets off to the flier.
Martin had 3 days to prepare his team for "Maritnball" stating the squad left behind.
This was reflected in the early results.
Martin now has no excuses. The players are fit and used his ways. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 16:08 - Nov 29 with 2166 views | pencoedjack |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 20:27 - Nov 28 by RichardO |
I agreed with you, Martin did try and change things by putting Ntcham in the deep midfielders roll and we were able to get the ball forward much quicker and effectively but revert to familiar formation after school boy mistake for their first goal maybe because his deep sitting partner hasn't got the pace to carry out the roll properly hence the need for Downes , Smith and last year Fulton to cover for him. |
Without Ntcham in the side we are woeful to watch.
Smith, Downes & Grimes should never be played together unless we are playing for an away draw.
There seems to be little movement in front of the 2 deep lying centre midfielders to extract dome urgency into our play.
I can totally understand by keeping the ball we hope teams tire & more spaces open up later in the game (Barnsley was a prime example).
BTW I love possession based football & would take over Cooper's style all day long. |  | | |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 16:10 - Nov 29 with 2162 views | vetchonian |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 15:25 - Nov 29 by YouBackJastard |
Our coaching staff set us up well enough to win the game. The game was entirely lost because our defence slept after kick off, TWICE which is beyond unacceptable, and an offside Andy Carroll goal. We had several clear cut chances in the second half that nobody managed to scramble in due to Reading holding ten men in their box. Martin hardly sat back and allowed the game to escape, he took off a centreback for a striker and pushed men forward. We even started two huge defenders to counteract Carroll’s threat, which I’m sure many on this site were ecstatic about given the nonsense that’s been thrown Naughton and Manning’s way about not being big enough to play at the back.
The point of playing football that doesn’t rely on luck is that the results will become more consistent and come with time. It’s fine if you want to ignore the stats and only stare at a league table, but it’s evident what we’re building here and don’t act like a victim if people call you out for never taking the bigger picture into account. |
the stats tell me we have consistently achieved more possession than the oppostion in the majority if not all of our games this season. This has not resulted in us winning the majority of our games.
We are told we need time ...MArtin had 1and 3/4 seasons at MK Dons yet still he hadnt managed to turn his possession into points.
Tell me what is evident we are building ? I tell you what I see is a manager trying to shoe horn players into playing his way...not utilisng the strengths of the resources avaailable to work towards his ultimate goal.
IF we are in transistion why not work with Brandon Coooper or Fulton to play the fulchrum role he has NAughtin playing?
MArtin dies not adapt the team to suit the opposisiton or make changes to nullify oppostion tactics...out of desperation on Saturday he pushed Naughton into midfield...surely that is where Downes should have been?
I discussed elsewhere how Blackpool nullified us by pushing their backline high and when needed doubled up on the wingbacks especially Laird....at no point did we try a chip over the top or into space to chase which would have the CBs turning..and make the opposition think but no MArtin is only going to play his way...we are already predictable and easy to read....it is a true playing by numbers.
It is not evident what we are building....yes I understand we want to have more of the ball and be more entertaining....but if peolple believe that having 800 passes and 80% possesion consitently will mean will become dominant in all games....why is it Klopp, Guardiola et al are not playing this way? | |
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| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 18:56 - Nov 29 with 2109 views | RichardO |
| A bit of perspective and entertainment on 16:10 - Nov 29 by vetchonian |
the stats tell me we have consistently achieved more possession than the oppostion in the majority if not all of our games this season. This has not resulted in us winning the majority of our games.
We are told we need time ...MArtin had 1and 3/4 seasons at MK Dons yet still he hadnt managed to turn his possession into points.
Tell me what is evident we are building ? I tell you what I see is a manager trying to shoe horn players into playing his way...not utilisng the strengths of the resources avaailable to work towards his ultimate goal.
IF we are in transistion why not work with Brandon Coooper or Fulton to play the fulchrum role he has NAughtin playing?
MArtin dies not adapt the team to suit the opposisiton or make changes to nullify oppostion tactics...out of desperation on Saturday he pushed Naughton into midfield...surely that is where Downes should have been?
I discussed elsewhere how Blackpool nullified us by pushing their backline high and when needed doubled up on the wingbacks especially Laird....at no point did we try a chip over the top or into space to chase which would have the CBs turning..and make the opposition think but no MArtin is only going to play his way...we are already predictable and easy to read....it is a true playing by numbers.
It is not evident what we are building....yes I understand we want to have more of the ball and be more entertaining....but if peolple believe that having 800 passes and 80% possesion consitently will mean will become dominant in all games....why is it Klopp, Guardiola et al are not playing this way? |
Klopp and Guardiola both use the high press but both Liverpool and Man City suffered (I use the term relatively)with the lost on their main defensive men Van Dijk and Company both strong and uncompromising, they surrounded them with pacey full/wing backs, we are not there yet are we?
[Post edited 29 Nov 2021 18:57]
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