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ON the BB thread somebody said we vote in these politicians who allow Bankers and financiers to get away with things. Well ignoring the fact that we don't really get a choice of who to vote for really and it's all a muchness of a muchness unless your in the top 1% who really get to influence anything. SO what I was wondering was suppose at the next general election absolutley nobody voted (I realised all the MPs and those with interests would vote somehow) but if they couldn't and it was really and truly up to the public to vote and they voted with their feet literally by not voting, what would happen?
Legitimacy would be claimed in any election even with a tiny minority of voters voting. The "apathy" of the non-voters would be lamented; politicians would promise to re-engage the "lost generation" and recapture the faith of the "disenfranchised" who felt that politics had nothing to offer them.......... and everything would carry on as before.
Only if abstention is accompanied by real social activism does it make any difference. So, let's say 10 million more people didn't vote next time than last time and it was shown that they were all involved in all or any of the following: community assemblies; community gardens for local food sovereignty; tool sharing; local credit unions; workplace organisation (that is to say outside of the old trade unions); squatting land and buildings; co-operative buying; local economic trading systems etc etc etc............. then there would be an interesting situation.
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of evidence that these things are happening as a response to economic crisis - it is possible that one day people will one day realise that the political process of liberal democracy serves only the rich and powerful, and when that day arrives all bets are off, but abstention alone won't do anything.
I abstain out of principle. I will not legitimise what I consider to be an apparatus of violence and murder. I know, I know, lots of people will find this stupid. Spare me the insults and the arguments, I am familiar with them both. But I do not kid myself that my abstention will bring the system down.
Try reading José Saramago's book 'Seeing'............. I found it a bit hard going, but it's all about mass abstention from the political process.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
Legitimacy would be claimed in any election even with a tiny minority of voters voting. The "apathy" of the non-voters would be lamented; politicians would promise to re-engage the "lost generation" and recapture the faith of the "disenfranchised" who felt that politics had nothing to offer them.......... and everything would carry on as before.
Only if abstention is accompanied by real social activism does it make any difference. So, let's say 10 million more people didn't vote next time than last time and it was shown that they were all involved in all or any of the following: community assemblies; community gardens for local food sovereignty; tool sharing; local credit unions; workplace organisation (that is to say outside of the old trade unions); squatting land and buildings; co-operative buying; local economic trading systems etc etc etc............. then there would be an interesting situation.
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of evidence that these things are happening as a response to economic crisis - it is possible that one day people will one day realise that the political process of liberal democracy serves only the rich and powerful, and when that day arrives all bets are off, but abstention alone won't do anything.
I abstain out of principle. I will not legitimise what I consider to be an apparatus of violence and murder. I know, I know, lots of people will find this stupid. Spare me the insults and the arguments, I am familiar with them both. But I do not kid myself that my abstention will bring the system down.
Try reading José Saramago's book 'Seeing'............. I found it a bit hard going, but it's all about mass abstention from the political process.
Krop,
I'm sure you are a nice fella and you are definitely not stupid but I do feel you are slightly mad in the niciest possible way. I actually LOL'd out the niavette of your second para.
I was brought up labour but changed to conservative many moons ago when I was mid 20s. Now I already decided to move over to UKIP at the next election just as a poke in the eye wit a rusty stick to the Macaroon.
I guess that makes me slight mad and naive as well .
pom
Currently residing in Pinner, Centre of the Universe.
Surely the biggest joke is people thinking they have a say by voting though. I mean one argument is if you don't vote don't moan but if you live in a safe seat (and 90%) of us do one way or another this means it is the very definition of a waste of time and money going out to vote (if you drive car to polling station for example)
I'm sure you are a nice fella and you are definitely not stupid but I do feel you are slightly mad in the niciest possible way. I actually LOL'd out the niavette of your second para.
I was brought up labour but changed to conservative many moons ago when I was mid 20s. Now I already decided to move over to UKIP at the next election just as a poke in the eye wit a rusty stick to the Macaroon.
I guess that makes me slight mad and naive as well .
pom
Hey Pom, I am a nice fella
Here's the thing, from your perspective I'm a nutter and from my perspective the way the political and economic system works is utter madness. It's a little like an argument about extremism isn't it? Some people would call me an extremist because I believe in the abolition of capitalism and would like to be part of a very different society; I call any political and economic system that allows children to starve, and fights wars over oil extreme.
It is a little known fact that Gandhi's politics were influenced by classical European Anarchism. If Gandhi was mad, then I am mad. It's a good kind of madness; I love people and I love the Earth.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
Legitimacy would be claimed in any election even with a tiny minority of voters voting. The "apathy" of the non-voters would be lamented; politicians would promise to re-engage the "lost generation" and recapture the faith of the "disenfranchised" who felt that politics had nothing to offer them.......... and everything would carry on as before.
Only if abstention is accompanied by real social activism does it make any difference. So, let's say 10 million more people didn't vote next time than last time and it was shown that they were all involved in all or any of the following: community assemblies; community gardens for local food sovereignty; tool sharing; local credit unions; workplace organisation (that is to say outside of the old trade unions); squatting land and buildings; co-operative buying; local economic trading systems etc etc etc............. then there would be an interesting situation.
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of evidence that these things are happening as a response to economic crisis - it is possible that one day people will one day realise that the political process of liberal democracy serves only the rich and powerful, and when that day arrives all bets are off, but abstention alone won't do anything.
I abstain out of principle. I will not legitimise what I consider to be an apparatus of violence and murder. I know, I know, lots of people will find this stupid. Spare me the insults and the arguments, I am familiar with them both. But I do not kid myself that my abstention will bring the system down.
Try reading José Saramago's book 'Seeing'............. I found it a bit hard going, but it's all about mass abstention from the political process.
You make some very good points krop.I think anyone who votes for something they then complain about over and over is insane. When was the last time you were actually happy with the puppet visaed that is called government? In the last 20 years the NWO have accelerated the plan to create the fascist police state that we are now living in,and its only gonna get worse.The use of political correctness and health and safety is tying the population up in knots creating a inbred fear that will become the norm allowing them to continue the processes they have lined up for us. Current projects include control of the Middle East disguised as a humanitarian anti terrorist mission.Jesus,the bloody CIA created The Taliban/Al-Qaeda supplying them with funds,weapons etc to fight their filthy wars for them. Once they gain control there a one world Government and de-population will follow. Western nations have been corrupted with a celebrity culture plus media,sex,drugs,alcohol,sport plus much more to keep their minds off whats really going on. I will never vote for any government while the worst criminals on the planet have control over them. The late George Carlin sums it up beautifully!!
Surely the biggest joke is people thinking they have a say by voting though. I mean one argument is if you don't vote don't moan but if you live in a safe seat (and 90%) of us do one way or another this means it is the very definition of a waste of time and money going out to vote (if you drive car to polling station for example)
I live in a Tory stranglehold. When I was a member of the Labour party when It was a Labour party many Years ago the fact that I lived in a Tory stranglehold made no difference to me and before the elections I still spent time in our poxy flea bitten labour headquarters licking stamps and filling envelopes etc. Its got nothing to do with safe seats or majority's but its got a huge amount to do with what you believe in. I'd never in my wildest dreams believe its a waste of time to vote, It might not mean much to a lot of people but to me we should never give up voting whether the people you are voting for have got none or little chance of getting elected.
My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic.
I shall give that a good read. I didn't mean that I am a follower of Gandhi in any event. If you're keen to know what really moves me then you'll find it in the tradition of classical anarchism: Peter Kropotkin through to Murray Bookchin, and including the gentle English anarchism of Colin Ward.
Sorry, don't think this is the thread to get into an argument about Indian history.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
I have always voted Tory, but I am deeply disappointed in how bad they have been since they have been elected. Labour have never effectively governed this country. Thing is people wil eiter vote Tory or Labour becasue they say it's a wasted vote. well next time I am voting Green. We need to look past the same usual suspects and have the courage to vote for minority parties whose vviews chine with our own, or for independent candidates. This is the best time way tosend a message to the main parties.
I am in the Windsor area so it is definitely blue and the Tory fella will get re-elected but at least I will not be registering my support for the two established parties who have misgoverned this country for so many years.
Everyone should exercise their right. Whether you percieve it as a waste of time or not. Many of my family, (as many on here) perished in the Great War and the Second World War.
Will it change anything?....Probably not. But it's the only voice we have. So use your voice.
P.S. I've had a drink...... All Politicians are Vermin.
P.P.S. No one should be allowed to stand for political office until they reach the age of 30.........and only then if they have been in the private sector for at least 5 years.
P.P.P.S. All of them are Vermin.......and would nosh the Devil if it gave them another 5 years in power.
Everyone should exercise their right. Whether you percieve it as a waste of time or not. Many of my family, (as many on here) perished in the Great War and the Second World War.
Will it change anything?....Probably not. But it's the only voice we have. So use your voice.
P.S. I've had a drink...... All Politicians are Vermin.
P.P.S. No one should be allowed to stand for political office until they reach the age of 30.........and only then if they have been in the private sector for at least 5 years.
P.P.P.S. All of them are Vermin.......and would nosh the Devil if it gave them another 5 years in power.
P.P.P.P.S. F**k 'em all.
:D
Just so you know, many of my family fought and died in both wars.
But my standard response to anyone who says "people died so you can vote" is that they were wrong. Great Great Uncle Herbert (buried in France, died on the Somme) wasn't killed for the vote, he was killed for f*ck all!!
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
Just so you know, many of my family fought and died in both wars.
But my standard response to anyone who says "people died so you can vote" is that they were wrong. Great Great Uncle Herbert (buried in France, died on the Somme) wasn't killed for the vote, he was killed for f*ck all!!
I hear what you're saying, but I didn't say 'people died so you can vote.' Millions died because they were considered expendable.
But I did say that the only voice we have is the right to vote.......and I believe that we should use it.
I hear what you're saying, but I didn't say 'people died so you can vote.' Millions died because they were considered expendable.
But I did say that the only voice we have is the right to vote.......and I believe that we should use it.
Fair enough Zico. I see what you're saying.
My position is that I can't bring myself to vote and I consider it a waste of time. That is to say that it appears to be "a voice" but it isn't really.
I will go as far as to say that I value more highly the chance to have a chat on LFW (or on any number of other websites, or down the pub) than I do the vote. All I would say tomorrow if the Government took the vote away would be, well okay, at least we can be honest about power relationships in this country now.
I don't want to trivialise this argument. For me the notion of democracy is very important and I will only admit that I live in a democratic society when direct democracy exists in every workplace and every community. That is to say I do not believe that politicians are compatible with democracy.
‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’
Legitimacy would be claimed in any election even with a tiny minority of voters voting. The "apathy" of the non-voters would be lamented; politicians would promise to re-engage the "lost generation" and recapture the faith of the "disenfranchised" who felt that politics had nothing to offer them.......... and everything would carry on as before.
Only if abstention is accompanied by real social activism does it make any difference. So, let's say 10 million more people didn't vote next time than last time and it was shown that they were all involved in all or any of the following: community assemblies; community gardens for local food sovereignty; tool sharing; local credit unions; workplace organisation (that is to say outside of the old trade unions); squatting land and buildings; co-operative buying; local economic trading systems etc etc etc............. then there would be an interesting situation.
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of evidence that these things are happening as a response to economic crisis - it is possible that one day people will one day realise that the political process of liberal democracy serves only the rich and powerful, and when that day arrives all bets are off, but abstention alone won't do anything.
I abstain out of principle. I will not legitimise what I consider to be an apparatus of violence and murder. I know, I know, lots of people will find this stupid. Spare me the insults and the arguments, I am familiar with them both. But I do not kid myself that my abstention will bring the system down.
Try reading José Saramago's book 'Seeing'............. I found it a bit hard going, but it's all about mass abstention from the political process.
Tool sharing.And what do you do when that bastard next door doesn't return your mower? That's how wars start.
To me the question is not whether democracy is a good thing (I think it is), but why has it become an empty shell?
1. One of the most embarrassing features of British democracy is that politicians are finding it difficult to even go through the motions of pretending to disagree with each other. They are devoid of ideas about how to deal with the crisis and have lost any connection to British society. It is therefore much more obvious today than in the past that the three main parties are effectively the same party.
2. Another interesting feature of the democracy we have is that it makes people responsible for things they don't control, such as the debts of banks, while giving people the illusion of control (voting for a party). This is particularly obvious in the periphery of Europe where governments and populations are forced to vote for austerity measures (i.e. vote for their own misery).
3. Even a positive thing can be used as a weapon, and 'democracy' has become tarnished by being used as a weapon to justify invading countries like Iraq.
4. Even if none of the above things were true, this would still not be a real democracy. Most people's lives are dominated through work, and ultimately through the blind and chaotic forces of the market. This came home to me during a discussion in a company meeting a few years ago, when the company owner boasted that 'this is not a democracy'. In other words, as he was well aware, the things that really matter are not controlled democratically.
Yeah we are hit with the classic "problem,reaction,solution" tactic they've been using for centuries.Its ridiculous how people will actually vote for their own downfall under the pretense of "exercising their right to vote",why,whats the point? They don't care whether you vote or not as they will implement their changes and strategies regardless. Its not surprising that most people don't even realize that The Bank Of England or The Federal reserve are owned by private enterprise and are not National institutions. How they get away with stating these national debts are actually owed to to "the world bank" is another carefully created phrase.Its giving the impression you owe to some international bank owned by the collective people when in fact they are private banking families who have never been elected to control anything. This is not a democracy.Its not even an illusion of a democracy anymore.
I agree and the Bank of England is the only company of it's sort who does not have to state who ownes the shares in it. I dare say the Royals are among them.
It sounds like Chubbs identifies the problem as a conspiracy of the elites, whereas Clive_Anderson identifies the problem as a conspiracy of the majority.
I agree and the Bank of England is the only company of it's sort who does not have to state who ownes the shares in it. I dare say the Royals are among them.
The Bank of England was nationalised in 1946. You own it.
It sounds like Chubbs identifies the problem as a conspiracy of the elites, whereas Clive_Anderson identifies the problem as a conspiracy of the majority.
Oh it's the elites as well no doubt about it - I was just pointing out the problems with democracy.
Those that are doing alright are less likely to question the motives of those in charge.
I don't bother voting anymore, for the simple reason that none of them have done anything to convince me that they are worth voting for. The choices are an out of touch toff in a red tie, a blue tie or a yellow tie, or to vote for a tiny party as a "protest vote" which doesn't work because it doesn't register with the big parties. Basically I think it's all a load of sh*te so I'm not going to waste my time playing the game. Give me someone worth voting for & I'll vote, simple as that.
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