| Patriotism 10:52 - Mar 10 with 1455 views | DorsetIan |
Trump campaigns on a patriotic platform about making America great and then immediately bends over to the US's traditional enemy, and starts to stiff US allies wherever he can.
It must be confusing for those MAGA supporters to keep up with who's on whose side.
In the UK, Brexit largely led by Farage was also largely about patriotism. Lot's of talk of treachery etc.
But now Starmer is playing the role of international statesman trying to lead 'the West' against tyranny, and Farage is floundering - tied up in knots over his closeness to Trump and some of the synpathetic remarks he's made about Putin in the past.
Funny thing this patriotism malarky. |  |
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| Patriotism on 11:38 - Mar 10 with 1175 views | kingslandstand1 |
Don't worry, The United States of Musk will sort it all out sooner or later! |  | | |
| Patriotism on 14:07 - Mar 10 with 1084 views | dirk_doone |
There does seem to be a common theme: making your closest neighbours and allies your enemies: the other North American countries for the USA; the EU countries for the UK; Ukraine for Russia. Historically, it's the usual precursor to trade wars and real wars. [Post edited 10 Mar 14:15]
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| Patriotism on 14:38 - Mar 10 with 1000 views | DorsetIan |
Is that in your garden?
Good work! | |
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| Patriotism on 14:41 - Mar 10 with 994 views | City_boy |
| Patriotism on 11:38 - Mar 10 by kingslandstand1 |
Don't worry, The United States of Musk will sort it all out sooner or later! |
I think he will be busy repairing the Tesla dealerships and charging stations that have been trashed.
When he's done that, he will be helping Trump clean up the damage down to Turnberry golf club.
This is all brewing up nicely for a massive backlash, now that most MAGA/Republicans realise that his mad plan to inflict tariffs. works both ways. | | | |
| Patriotism on 15:27 - Mar 10 with 940 views | Joiedevivre |
It depends what you mean by patriotism. If it’s love of one’s country, then Starmer’s own domestic decision making would show he doesn’t care very much about his own.
If it’s the much broader definition of patriotism: defending a nation’s self interest, who is it defining these interests?
Patriotism is easily manipulated. WW1 was fought for “patriotism”, but this wasn’t the reality - just look at the propaganda in any war museum guilt tripping the poor people. |  | | |
| Patriotism on 15:52 - Mar 10 with 872 views | kentsouthampton |
Patriotism, like religion is a form of subservience. |  | | |
| Patriotism on 16:00 - Mar 10 with 857 views | Joiedevivre |
| Patriotism on 15:52 - Mar 10 by kentsouthampton |
Patriotism, like religion is a form of subservience. |
Maybe, but everyone is subservient to something. If it’s isn’t either of these things, it’s something else. You just don’t realise it. [Post edited 10 Mar 16:03]
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| Patriotism on 16:21 - Mar 10 with 820 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 15:27 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
It depends what you mean by patriotism. If it’s love of one’s country, then Starmer’s own domestic decision making would show he doesn’t care very much about his own.
If it’s the much broader definition of patriotism: defending a nation’s self interest, who is it defining these interests?
Patriotism is easily manipulated. WW1 was fought for “patriotism”, but this wasn’t the reality - just look at the propaganda in any war museum guilt tripping the poor people. |
I'm sure patriotism is easily manipulated and maybe that's my point.
Farage's brand of isolationist politics presented as extraordinarily nationalistic and patriotic, pitching us all against the great enemy - the EU - and making a huge play about democracy and how e.g. judges and EU-sceptics were trying to undermine it.
He's rather less concerned that his mate Trump has no commitment to democracy, nor to any of us in Europe, and has no qualms at all about rewarding the autocrat Putin.
It was remarkably easy for Starmer to grab those patriotic credential away from him. | |
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| Patriotism on 16:26 - Mar 10 with 802 views | kentsouthampton |
| Patriotism on 16:21 - Mar 10 by DorsetIan |
I'm sure patriotism is easily manipulated and maybe that's my point.
Farage's brand of isolationist politics presented as extraordinarily nationalistic and patriotic, pitching us all against the great enemy - the EU - and making a huge play about democracy and how e.g. judges and EU-sceptics were trying to undermine it.
He's rather less concerned that his mate Trump has no commitment to democracy, nor to any of us in Europe, and has no qualms at all about rewarding the autocrat Putin.
It was remarkably easy for Starmer to grab those patriotic credential away from him. |
The only thing Farage cares about is Farage, the morons that follow/support /enable him are mere pawns and stepping stones in his little game of thrones. | | | |
| Patriotism on 19:45 - Mar 10 with 670 views | saintmark1976 |
| Patriotism on 14:41 - Mar 10 by City_boy |
I think he will be busy repairing the Tesla dealerships and charging stations that have been trashed.
When he's done that, he will be helping Trump clean up the damage down to Turnberry golf club.
This is all brewing up nicely for a massive backlash, now that most MAGA/Republicans realise that his mad plan to inflict tariffs. works both ways. |
Interestingly Tesla shares dropped 8% today amid the Trump tariff nonsense, something which must have irritated Mr Musk somewhat I imagine.
I suspect there may well be many Tesla dealership owners tonight who will be having a sleepless night concerned at Musk’s brand being heavily associated with grifters like Trump and vice president Vance.
In the UK and Europe in particular, buying and owning a Tesla may possibly quickly become rather unfashionable ? | |
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| Patriotism on 19:51 - Mar 10 with 660 views | Bazza |
| Patriotism on 16:21 - Mar 10 by DorsetIan |
I'm sure patriotism is easily manipulated and maybe that's my point.
Farage's brand of isolationist politics presented as extraordinarily nationalistic and patriotic, pitching us all against the great enemy - the EU - and making a huge play about democracy and how e.g. judges and EU-sceptics were trying to undermine it.
He's rather less concerned that his mate Trump has no commitment to democracy, nor to any of us in Europe, and has no qualms at all about rewarding the autocrat Putin.
It was remarkably easy for Starmer to grab those patriotic credential away from him. |
So much incorrect in your rant that there’s no chance to have a proper discussion. Typical of the left who always think they are right and are beyond debate.
Starmer will likely disappoint, we shall see.
Please translate/ justify your last sentence | | | |
| Patriotism on 21:29 - Mar 10 with 619 views | saint22 |
lets be honest in the hands of a lunatic it just takes the form of fascism
every age has its own | | | |
| Patriotism on 22:49 - Mar 10 with 569 views | Joiedevivre |
| Patriotism on 19:51 - Mar 10 by Bazza |
So much incorrect in your rant that there’s no chance to have a proper discussion. Typical of the left who always think they are right and are beyond debate.
Starmer will likely disappoint, we shall see.
Please translate/ justify your last sentence |
The justification, as I alluded to in the previous post, is war; war is apparently patriotic. Now fight Russia, or you don’t get patriotic points.
Also, if we’re going on what Farage thinks, he sold Brexit as international rather than nationalistic. He wanted the free trade with Europe, with America, and with the world. Just not the political union. Of course it hasn’t come out like this, but this is what he supposedly thought. [Post edited 10 Mar 22:53]
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| Patriotism on 22:58 - Mar 10 with 550 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 19:51 - Mar 10 by Bazza |
So much incorrect in your rant that there’s no chance to have a proper discussion. Typical of the left who always think they are right and are beyond debate.
Starmer will likely disappoint, we shall see.
Please translate/ justify your last sentence |
All of it is true and I'm not quite sure what you don't understand?
Farage's brand of patriotism is looking pretty threadbare as he struggles to side with a democracy over a despot.
Meanwhile Starmer positions himself and the UK at the centre of a defence (possibly without US help) of the ideals the we fought WW2 for. | |
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| Patriotism on 23:05 - Mar 10 with 539 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 22:49 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
The justification, as I alluded to in the previous post, is war; war is apparently patriotic. Now fight Russia, or you don’t get patriotic points.
Also, if we’re going on what Farage thinks, he sold Brexit as international rather than nationalistic. He wanted the free trade with Europe, with America, and with the world. Just not the political union. Of course it hasn’t come out like this, but this is what he supposedly thought. [Post edited 10 Mar 22:53]
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It was Putin that brought war. War isn't patriotic. But defending the democratic ideals of the UK and our allies in western Europe against despotism is.
And you are completely deluded if you think Farage won many votes because of either internationalism or free trade ideals. He won on the basis that the UK didn't need anyone else and that it could and should close its borders. And in the process he took us out of a free market near and prosperous neighbours, who by and large share our democratic ideals. | |
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| Patriotism on 23:41 - Mar 10 with 500 views | Joiedevivre |
| Patriotism on 23:05 - Mar 10 by DorsetIan |
It was Putin that brought war. War isn't patriotic. But defending the democratic ideals of the UK and our allies in western Europe against despotism is.
And you are completely deluded if you think Farage won many votes because of either internationalism or free trade ideals. He won on the basis that the UK didn't need anyone else and that it could and should close its borders. And in the process he took us out of a free market near and prosperous neighbours, who by and large share our democratic ideals. |
You’ve just changed the argument. I’m not saying Farage didn’t win votes from that crowd. It was you who said Farage presented it as a nationalist and isolationist project, which, as i’ve said, he didn’t. His argument externally was international trade with partners he felt were cut off by the EU; the EU, he claimed, were protectionist. | | | |
| Patriotism on 23:55 - Mar 10 with 490 views | Joiedevivre |
| Patriotism on 23:05 - Mar 10 by DorsetIan |
It was Putin that brought war. War isn't patriotic. But defending the democratic ideals of the UK and our allies in western Europe against despotism is.
And you are completely deluded if you think Farage won many votes because of either internationalism or free trade ideals. He won on the basis that the UK didn't need anyone else and that it could and should close its borders. And in the process he took us out of a free market near and prosperous neighbours, who by and large share our democratic ideals. |
Also, Russia and Ukraine are both ranked similarly in terms of the democracy index: both are seen as “hybrid regimes.” This was their marking as late as 2021.
Hybrid Regimes are seen as having issues with:
- Fair Elections
- Freedom of the press
- Rule of law
- Political participation [Post edited 10 Mar 23:56]
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| Patriotism on 07:20 - Mar 11 with 394 views | cocklebreath |
| Patriotism on 23:55 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
Also, Russia and Ukraine are both ranked similarly in terms of the democracy index: both are seen as “hybrid regimes.” This was their marking as late as 2021.
Hybrid Regimes are seen as having issues with:
- Fair Elections
- Freedom of the press
- Rule of law
- Political participation [Post edited 10 Mar 23:56]
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Cool but only one of those nations invaded the other |  |
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| Patriotism on 07:38 - Mar 11 with 373 views | kentsouthampton |
| Patriotism on 23:55 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
Also, Russia and Ukraine are both ranked similarly in terms of the democracy index: both are seen as “hybrid regimes.” This was their marking as late as 2021.
Hybrid Regimes are seen as having issues with:
- Fair Elections
- Freedom of the press
- Rule of law
- Political participation [Post edited 10 Mar 23:56]
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I don’t recall Ukrainians poisoning people on the streets of Salisbury. | | | |
| Patriotism on 09:30 - Mar 11 with 311 views | saint901 |
History shows us that many politicians of many hues have used "patriotism" as a rallying cry to support (usually) their own vision of the UK and version of the truth.
The saying that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel is absolutely true.
Farage plays on that xenophobic trait that most of us have. He builds up the possible dangers of allowing our society to become "overwhelmed" with whatever group it is this week and says that only his ideas can save us. Sadly, because many people chose not to think for themselves but prefer others to do that and then tell them what to think, much of his nonsense is swallowed and repeated.
The "mainstream" parties are not much better. Labour's message is hopelessly mangled by their poor communication. The Tories under KB are desperately searching for an identity that is not Reform. The Lib Dems? Enough said.
Into that vacuum, any party with a string message which can be couched as "vote for us and defend your country" will pick up support.
It is also the case that the younger generations feel disconnected with all this. They seem to care little about our history and more about either having a good time or being "kind" to everybody. The "patriot" message is largely lost on them and so we will eventually see those wishing to be elected adopt a different message which will not be patriotic.
In the meantime, I think for Trump the "make America great again" slogan suits him because it's short, he can remember it and it gives him an excuse to do anything so long as dollars roll into the USA (and his account). From what some of my redneck friends tell me, his personal popularity and the Republican party's poll numbers are close to their lowest ever and if the economy tips over into recession they will only get worse. What value is a "patriot" call to arms when nobody can afford to buy any? | | | |
| Patriotism on 09:48 - Mar 11 with 297 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 23:41 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
You’ve just changed the argument. I’m not saying Farage didn’t win votes from that crowd. It was you who said Farage presented it as a nationalist and isolationist project, which, as i’ve said, he didn’t. His argument externally was international trade with partners he felt were cut off by the EU; the EU, he claimed, were protectionist. |
I would agree that the Brexit crowd tried to argue that it made economic sense to forego a free trade arrangement on our doorstep with massive economies in favour of free trade agreements with smaller economic units thousands of miles away, but that was just his attempted rebuttal to those who pointed out that the economic madness is severing links with the EU.
The core of his message was a nationalistic, patriotic, dare I say jingoistic one. There was a clue in all those stupid mini union jacks that they stole off children's sandcastles that they were so fond of waving at the European Parliament. | |
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| Patriotism on 09:52 - Mar 11 with 294 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 23:55 - Mar 10 by Joiedevivre |
Also, Russia and Ukraine are both ranked similarly in terms of the democracy index: both are seen as “hybrid regimes.” This was their marking as late as 2021.
Hybrid Regimes are seen as having issues with:
- Fair Elections
- Freedom of the press
- Rule of law
- Political participation [Post edited 10 Mar 23:56]
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You are being foolish again if you are trying to equate Russia with Ukraine in terms of democratic, liberal credentials.
Like Trump, you arguments are straight out of the Kremlin. | |
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| Patriotism on 10:02 - Mar 11 with 284 views | Joiedevivre |
| Patriotism on 09:52 - Mar 11 by DorsetIan |
You are being foolish again if you are trying to equate Russia with Ukraine in terms of democratic, liberal credentials.
Like Trump, you arguments are straight out of the Kremlin. |
The Economist’s Democracy Index, famously run by the Kremlin [Post edited 11 Mar 10:03]
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| Patriotism on 10:37 - Mar 11 with 237 views | DorsetIan |
| Patriotism on 10:02 - Mar 11 by Joiedevivre |
The Economist’s Democracy Index, famously run by the Kremlin [Post edited 11 Mar 10:03]
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Do you ever read The Economist?
I recommend it - they know the difference between Putin and Zelensky. | |
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