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...all wanting to leave at the same time for whatever reason, it put me in mind of this little scene from Monty Python's The Meaning of Life. I wonder if Holloway got them alll in for a 'chat' and said if you don't wanna be 'ere, you're welcome leave.
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With so many first teamers... on 22:21 - Jan 11 with 2786 views
Yeah but every player harry got was fantastic, super...
The way I see it with Ollie, he was hoping it would lift them but it became clear some are just not very good or had no fight or wanted to go, it happens at lots of clubs and sometimes surgery is the only way to save the patient.
With so many first teamers... on 21:52 - Jan 11 by isawqpratwcity
Ah jeez.
The meat on Hasselbaink's carcass was pretty thin, but what gives you the right to fillet the meat off, throw it away and say 'look, nothing but bones!'
At least give Jimmy the benefit of all of his part in this season. Those points still count.
And btw, you describe the August-excluded Hasselbaink record as "dropping like a stone", well you might want to re-think that one. After August, JFH's record drops to a point a game. Yes, exactly the same as Holloway's.
Why do I need to re think it? We were 4th at the end of August, 17th by the start of November so we did drop like a stone.
I'm not suggesting points won under Hasselbaink don't count but he didn't leave us in a position where we have since dropped down the table, he left us struggling in 17th and we're still struggling in 17th. Holloway took over a struggling team dropping towards relegation and it was alway going to be a very tough job to turn that around no matter who got the job.
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With so many first teamers... on 00:50 - Jan 12 with 2606 views
With so many first teamers... on 22:54 - Jan 11 by daveB
Why do I need to re think it? We were 4th at the end of August, 17th by the start of November so we did drop like a stone.
I'm not suggesting points won under Hasselbaink don't count but he didn't leave us in a position where we have since dropped down the table, he left us struggling in 17th and we're still struggling in 17th. Holloway took over a struggling team dropping towards relegation and it was alway going to be a very tough job to turn that around no matter who got the job.
"We were 4th at the end of August", wrong, 5th actually and "17th by the start of November", wrong again, we were 14th. I get my data from the BBC, from whose arse do you pluck yours?
But it does illustrate the folly of clinging to a league position as being an indicator of stability. It relies on how the other teams are performing in comparison to you.
If we carry on the way we are going currently, we may get relegated, or we may not. It depends upon how numerous other teams perform in their other games. That wouldn't be much of a reflection on any manager, whether Hasselbaink, Holloway or whoever. Better to get enough points to make the relegation pack chase you.
Because Olly hasn't turned anything around yet but his own ignominious first seven games. Let's see if he can improve more.
With so many first teamers... on 22:00 - Jan 11 by DannytheR
Interesting to look back at what the manager was saying about the players in the first few days after his re-appointment, when the remit seemed to be gee-ing up a promising but flawed and inexperienced set of young players.
Ben Gladwin “He’s got unbelievable ability. I want to encourage him to use it.” Already out of the door.
Massimo Luongo “Has fantastic feet and puts his foot in as well.” Out of favour, may well be gone by the end of the month.
Tjaronn Chery “He’s got the happiest feet I’ve seen. So sharp, great balance. I didn’t realise before looking at the running stats that he’s got a great engine — he really does keep going. And last weekend against Nottingham Forest I thought he was brilliant when he dropped back in midfield.” Gone.
Yeni Ngbakoto “Crikey, he has got happy feet. Unbelievable. So quick.” Publicly called a lard arse.
Olamide Shodipo “All sorts of talent.” On the bench.
Sebastian Polter “Big Polts is getting better all the time. He’ll chase pigeons.” Gone.
Nasser El Khayati “Wonderful feet! Has he fitted in here yet? I don’t know. But he’s a wonderful player I’m telling you.” Going.
[Post edited 11 Jan 2017 22:02]
It's funny how quickly the right sort turned out to be the wrong sort.
Air hostess clique
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With so many first teamers... on 10:36 - Jan 12 with 2426 views
With so many first teamers... on 13:58 - Jan 11 by dannyblue
My point is that I think the squad was ok, the players were good enough for the division, they were fit, well organised, pulling in the same direction and working hard to try and follow their manager's plans. It certainly wasn't great, and something was definitely missing, but it seemed to me it only needed tweaking. Perhaps less physical effort expended in training and the shackles released a bit with the ball. Maybe it needed someone fresh, maybe JFH would have found what was necessary, but the platform was good, even Holloway said so when he first came.
But now Holloway is ripping it all up. He's bombing them out public;y. Not in itself necessarily a bad approach if warranted, but I just don't think it was in this instance. For example saying "that team won't play again". Today he's quoted as saying "You can’t be a luxury at this level like Mr Chery, who takes set-plays and corners and free-kicks. At this level you’ve got to have everyone in it together and putting a shift in". Well despite his wayward form I don't think Chery wasn't putting a shift in. I don't think that BFG wasn't working hard.
He's shaking everything up and so far it isn't making things better. In fact things have got a lot worse:
-9 goal difference and 1.26 points per game over 19 games for JFH. -10 goal difference, 0.9 points per game over 10 games for IH. (Including cup games)
There has been a dramatic drop in form seems to suggest the team are struggling to adapt to Ollie's methods. We also wasted time while he had to learn what we already knew.e.g., no point playing Sandro, Gladwin can't cut it, Wszolek should start, Washington struggles up front alone...
I love Ian Holloway for what he did when first managing the club. I can be inspired by his enthusiasm. I just think that at this time evolution would have been preferable to revolution.
Spot on Danny
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With so many first teamers... on 11:03 - Jan 12 with 2402 views
With so many first teamers... on 00:50 - Jan 12 by isawqpratwcity
"We were 4th at the end of August", wrong, 5th actually and "17th by the start of November", wrong again, we were 14th. I get my data from the BBC, from whose arse do you pluck yours?
But it does illustrate the folly of clinging to a league position as being an indicator of stability. It relies on how the other teams are performing in comparison to you.
If we carry on the way we are going currently, we may get relegated, or we may not. It depends upon how numerous other teams perform in their other games. That wouldn't be much of a reflection on any manager, whether Hasselbaink, Holloway or whoever. Better to get enough points to make the relegation pack chase you.
Because Olly hasn't turned anything around yet but his own ignominious first seven games. Let's see if he can improve more.
Apologies on my terrible error. We went 4th after beating Wigan but Newcastle played the 5.15 game that day so went above us.
I'm not clinging onto anything really, I just see us as having dropped down the table under Hasselbaink from 4th/5th to 17th. Now we might have got better under him, we'll never know but the facts are we dropped down the table at an alarming rate and if it continued in that vein it was only heading one way. I didn't agree with his sacking but can see why they did it as we were pretty dreadful in the weeks before he went.
Holloway has come in and after a good win had a bad run but after a few recent wins is back in 17th exactly where Hasselbaink had us so really we haven't sunk since he came in, we're pretty much as we were and could easily go either way in the coming months.
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With so many first teamers... on 11:25 - Jan 12 with 2367 views
With so many first teamers... on 22:54 - Jan 11 by daveB
Why do I need to re think it? We were 4th at the end of August, 17th by the start of November so we did drop like a stone.
I'm not suggesting points won under Hasselbaink don't count but he didn't leave us in a position where we have since dropped down the table, he left us struggling in 17th and we're still struggling in 17th. Holloway took over a struggling team dropping towards relegation and it was alway going to be a very tough job to turn that around no matter who got the job.
Just to be clear, when IH took over we were in 17th place, but there were only 6 POINTS between 6th and 17th place. When we won at Norwich we immediately jumped to 13th place. So at that point we were already no longer a team plummeting toward oblivion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if we had won at Ipswich we would have been 10th.
Most people expected us to finish the season somewhere in mid table, so how you could be talking about relegation after 16 games baffles me!
100% of people who drink water will die.
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With so many first teamers... on 11:35 - Jan 12 with 2352 views
With so many first teamers... on 11:25 - Jan 12 by SimonJames
Just to be clear, when IH took over we were in 17th place, but there were only 6 POINTS between 6th and 17th place. When we won at Norwich we immediately jumped to 13th place. So at that point we were already no longer a team plummeting toward oblivion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if we had won at Ipswich we would have been 10th.
Most people expected us to finish the season somewhere in mid table, so how you could be talking about relegation after 16 games baffles me!
I still think we're finish in mid table, all I'm saying is these comments about us plummeting down the table under Holloway and being mid table and stable under Hasselbaink are just not true.
We had dropped to 17th under JFH, yes we won a game and jumped up a few places under Ollie but we've ended up back in the same league position so thats not a massive drop, it's pretty much the same as it was before.
I'm not clinging onto anything really, I just see us as having dropped down the table under Hasselbaink from 4th/5th to 17th. Now we might have got better under him, we'll never know but the facts are we dropped down the table at an alarming rate and if it continued in that vein it was only heading one way. I didn't agree with his sacking but can see why they did it as we were pretty dreadful in the weeks before he went.
Holloway has come in and after a good win had a bad run but after a few recent wins is back in 17th exactly where Hasselbaink had us so really we haven't sunk since he came in, we're pretty much as we were and could easily go either way in the coming months.
I did look up the dates and tables and by what you said, I am correct, not you. I haven't misquoted you.
I would hesitate to describe dropping 9 places in two months as "alarming" ('concerning', maybe, given that it was from a play-off position to upper mid-table), but I won't quibble. At least you are not still claiming "dropping like a stone". That would suggest an extended period of no points won over, say, six games, except the vagaries of teams' relative performances failed to punish Holloway as much as could have been expected from such a run. Lucky Holloway.
Were we "pretty dreadful"? I've done my best to assess measurable parameters to determine how bad we were, and came up with the resounding conclusion that, by almost any quantifiable match statistic, we are worse off under Holloway. And that is when you say that you don't care about statistics and then start quoting (incorrectly) dates and league table positions. Tiresome, isn't it?
I wouldn't describe Norwich as a "good win" (with the qualification that any win is a good win). Even Holloway thought the Norwich result was lucky, see his post-match comments. We were desperately hanging on at home against a team that played for all but 2 minutes with ten men.
Yes, it could go either way from here. Fwiw, I think we will survive, just. And I will be delighted if Holloway can improve on bare survival.
With so many first teamers... on 11:48 - Jan 12 by isawqpratwcity
I did look up the dates and tables and by what you said, I am correct, not you. I haven't misquoted you.
I would hesitate to describe dropping 9 places in two months as "alarming" ('concerning', maybe, given that it was from a play-off position to upper mid-table), but I won't quibble. At least you are not still claiming "dropping like a stone". That would suggest an extended period of no points won over, say, six games, except the vagaries of teams' relative performances failed to punish Holloway as much as could have been expected from such a run. Lucky Holloway.
Were we "pretty dreadful"? I've done my best to assess measurable parameters to determine how bad we were, and came up with the resounding conclusion that, by almost any quantifiable match statistic, we are worse off under Holloway. And that is when you say that you don't care about statistics and then start quoting (incorrectly) dates and league table positions. Tiresome, isn't it?
I wouldn't describe Norwich as a "good win" (with the qualification that any win is a good win). Even Holloway thought the Norwich result was lucky, see his post-match comments. We were desperately hanging on at home against a team that played for all but 2 minutes with ten men.
Yes, it could go either way from here. Fwiw, I think we will survive, just. And I will be delighted if Holloway can improve on bare survival.
Fair play I can't be arsed to argue anymore, you are of course correct.
If you say we weren't 4th after beating Wigan before Newcastle overtook us later that night then you must be right
If you say we weren't 17th when Hasselbaink left in early November then again I bow to your knowledge, you must be right
and if you say we were doing fine and going from 4th/5th to 17th is not dropping like a stone under Hasselbaink then again, you are right, it was all great and Holloway has made it all worse, even the games he won can't even be classed as good wins as we were a bit lucky unlike those glorious one sided wins we had under Hasselbaink where teams missed open goals and penalties against us, no luck involved in those at all.
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With so many first teamers... on 12:19 - Jan 12 with 2288 views
With so many first teamers... on 12:00 - Jan 12 by daveB
Fair play I can't be arsed to argue anymore, you are of course correct.
If you say we weren't 4th after beating Wigan before Newcastle overtook us later that night then you must be right
If you say we weren't 17th when Hasselbaink left in early November then again I bow to your knowledge, you must be right
and if you say we were doing fine and going from 4th/5th to 17th is not dropping like a stone under Hasselbaink then again, you are right, it was all great and Holloway has made it all worse, even the games he won can't even be classed as good wins as we were a bit lucky unlike those glorious one sided wins we had under Hasselbaink where teams missed open goals and penalties against us, no luck involved in those at all.
You won't even own what you say. Go back and have a read, and if I am wrong on exactly what you said, let me know.
Never mind all that crap about late kick-offs or whatever. Look at exactly what you said. Be honest.
With so many first teamers... on 11:35 - Jan 12 by daveB
I still think we're finish in mid table, all I'm saying is these comments about us plummeting down the table under Holloway and being mid table and stable under Hasselbaink are just not true.
We had dropped to 17th under JFH, yes we won a game and jumped up a few places under Ollie but we've ended up back in the same league position so thats not a massive drop, it's pretty much the same as it was before.
[Post edited 12 Jan 2017 11:36]
The entire tenet of your argument is that we were in 17th place and you ignore the fact that only 6 points separated 11 teams after 16 games. And only 3 points separated us and the next six teams above us. In just 9 games under Olly both those gaps have more than doubled. Irrespective of us now being back in 17th position, our hard numbers are considerably worse. And climbing back up the table (assuming we have any sort of coherent strategy now) is going to be relatively harder.
100% of people who drink water will die.
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With so many first teamers... on 12:31 - Jan 12 with 2244 views
With so many first teamers... on 12:26 - Jan 12 by SimonJames
The entire tenet of your argument is that we were in 17th place and you ignore the fact that only 6 points separated 11 teams after 16 games. And only 3 points separated us and the next six teams above us. In just 9 games under Olly both those gaps have more than doubled. Irrespective of us now being back in 17th position, our hard numbers are considerably worse. And climbing back up the table (assuming we have any sort of coherent strategy now) is going to be relatively harder.
I'm not ignoring anything, of course we have dropped away from the playoffs but did anyone really think we were going to be close to them this season. We were 6 points off the drop when JFH left and the main fear when he went was on going down rather than playoffs. We're now 5 points off the drop so pretty much as we were.
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With so many first teamers... on 12:34 - Jan 12 with 2236 views
With so many first teamers... on 12:19 - Jan 12 by isawqpratwcity
You won't even own what you say. Go back and have a read, and if I am wrong on exactly what you said, let me know.
Never mind all that crap about late kick-offs or whatever. Look at exactly what you said. Be honest.
yeah and i said I made a mistake, how many times do i have to say it? I know we were 4th after we beat Wigan but I had forgotten Newcastle played after us and we dropped to 5th later that night. 1000 apologies to you for this terrible error
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With so many first teamers... on 13:08 - Jan 12 with 2182 views
With so many first teamers... on 12:31 - Jan 12 by daveB
I'm not ignoring anything, of course we have dropped away from the playoffs but did anyone really think we were going to be close to them this season. We were 6 points off the drop when JFH left and the main fear when he went was on going down rather than playoffs. We're now 5 points off the drop so pretty much as we were.
Your "main fear" might have been going down. The questions in my mind were "How is JFH going to tweak things to keep building towards the club's vision?" and "What changes will he be looking to make in January to strengthen?"
100% of people who drink water will die.
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With so many first teamers... on 13:38 - Jan 12 with 1959 views
With so many first teamers... on 13:08 - Jan 12 by SimonJames
Your "main fear" might have been going down. The questions in my mind were "How is JFH going to tweak things to keep building towards the club's vision?" and "What changes will he be looking to make in January to strengthen?"
I'm just going on what many were saying on here at the time and the worry seemed to be we'd be going down rather than everything was fine, I must have misjudged that.
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With so many first teamers... on 22:32 - Jan 12 with 1909 views
With so many first teamers... on 15:28 - Jan 11 by PinnerPaul
We're not arguing about what might or might not happen, we're deciding if we're all dancing in a Holloway winter wonderland at the moment or not!
Thrilled by the exciting football, marvelling at the improvement in the players, heartened by the team spirit on show and trying to ignore/not worry about 6+ of them leaving.
Its all very well having a dig at JFH but as we have all (finally) agreed, that points wise, matches won, goals scored/conceded we're actually worse off CURRENTLY under IH, its surely sensible to be a little concerned, especially as you say, we need to hope that IH's replacements hit the ground running - another 10 matches & only 9 points won will still leave us in trouble.
Thrilled by the exciting football - tick Marvelling at the improvement in players - tick Heartened by the team spirit on show - tick
In the words of Scott Mingo "What a great result for Ian Holloway... He really is turning things around"
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With so many first teamers... on 22:41 - Jan 12 with 1869 views
Holloway making it pretty clear with his post match comments that players leaving is to do with their perceived attitude. If it leads to team performances like that until the end of the season fair play to him.
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With so many first teamers... on 22:46 - Jan 12 with 1849 views
Seems to have worked, all those that didn't want to be here and were underperforming as result have gone and we're, apperently, left with an actual team!
Who'd have thought it???
[Post edited 13 Jan 2017 6:20]
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With so many first teamers... on 07:24 - Jan 13 with 1726 views
With so many first teamers... on 07:24 - Jan 13 by daveB
quite clearly the stats show we are not getting any better, it's all far worse than it was under Hasselbaink. Insert sarcastic ear cupping emoji
Quite the contrary. Credit where credit's due, that was a very good game. And the stats show it, too. Comparing last night to Holloway's previous 9:
shots for: up 30% shots against: down 42% shots on target for: up 9% shots on target against: down 85%
The stats aren't always right, dave, but they are a very useful aid to understanding, as I have just illustrated. But then, you're not interested in stats, are you, dave?
With so many first teamers... on 08:05 - Jan 13 by isawqpratwcity
Quite the contrary. Credit where credit's due, that was a very good game. And the stats show it, too. Comparing last night to Holloway's previous 9:
shots for: up 30% shots against: down 42% shots on target for: up 9% shots on target against: down 85%
The stats aren't always right, dave, but they are a very useful aid to understanding, as I have just illustrated. But then, you're not interested in stats, are you, dave?
Stats are great and very much part and parcel of the modern game... But they can also be a bit deceptive. Reading had the vast majority of possession last night and therefore must have completed way more passes than us. But we all know that we should have won by more than 1-0! I've just had a look on Wiki (not the most reliable I know) to check JFH's early record with us. (Apologies if this has already been stated) He won 1 of his first 10 league games (amassing 10 points in the process). That was the time when he kept saying "It is what it is....We move on". I'm not slating JFH, I think he is a good manager! (He seemed to draw a lot of games which was progress at the time). But I was getting really fed up with people having a go at Ollie when he has only just re-joined the club. He has had 10 league matches and (comparing the stats) has won 3 more than JFH did. But putting the stats aside for one moment there was something about last night’s performance which was important to me. I've been waiting for something to click with QPR for a few seasons now. I looked at the various players amassed over several seasons and thought "one of these days it’s all going to fall into place... We're going to look like a proper team and win convincingly". Last night was the first time (for years) it looked like something had actually clicked… Partnerships were forming, we looked fantastic on the break for 60 minutes of that game. I'm not saying we are the finished article and there will be disappointments and bad runs to come (no doubt). Football can be a right bar-steward sometimes. But it was something to build on last night. We looked like a team. We looked like we could score some goals. We looked solid at the back (for most of the game), we beat a high flying (in form) team in their back yard. IT WAS REALLY ENTERTAINING!!!
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