| Castell Howell 18:10 - Jun 23 with 8670 views | raynor94 |
Bad news coming from there tonight, looks like a lot of jobs going to go. |  |
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| Castell Howell on 11:14 - Jun 26 with 1456 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 10:55 - Jun 26 by ItchySphincter |
My kids haven’t been offered one online lesson or one to one with any teacher. All the work has been from online resources which we can easily source ourselves, which has then been forwarded on to us in pdf form. Pretty appalled tbh. My eldest starts secondary next term and I just feel so sorry for what he and his friends have missed out on. As soon as restrictions allow it, and I start earning money again, my boys will be having private tutoring. They’ll hate me for it but they need it. |
No infrastructure in place is the problem. My son has had lots of work online and offline and live sessions from this week. He can’t deal with the online side due to ASD. School have been great though |  | | |
| Castell Howell on 11:16 - Jun 26 with 1456 views | jack_lord |
| Castell Howell on 10:55 - Jun 26 by ItchySphincter |
My kids haven’t been offered one online lesson or one to one with any teacher. All the work has been from online resources which we can easily source ourselves, which has then been forwarded on to us in pdf form. Pretty appalled tbh. My eldest starts secondary next term and I just feel so sorry for what he and his friends have missed out on. As soon as restrictions allow it, and I start earning money again, my boys will be having private tutoring. They’ll hate me for it but they need it. |
Private tutoring has almost become the norm for the Bishopston kids. I don't know if this is because of the pushy parents scenario or because of the standard of teaching and parents and risking the result.
Can we have a separate teacher bashing thread and we can all post what we think, believe, exaggerate, understand and miscomprehend about the status of teachers and teaching at the moment as this one is about the plight of the Castell Howell guys. |  |
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| Castell Howell on 11:31 - Jun 26 with 1438 views | ItchySphincter |
| Castell Howell on 11:16 - Jun 26 by jack_lord |
Private tutoring has almost become the norm for the Bishopston kids. I don't know if this is because of the pushy parents scenario or because of the standard of teaching and parents and risking the result.
Can we have a separate teacher bashing thread and we can all post what we think, believe, exaggerate, understand and miscomprehend about the status of teachers and teaching at the moment as this one is about the plight of the Castell Howell guys. |
Threads always twist and turn and I’m not teacher bashing but saying that is just trying to control the narrative because you don’t agree.
I’ll look forward to your new, endorsed thread. |  |
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| Castell Howell on 12:22 - Jun 26 with 1403 views | Gwyn737 |
The experience that Kerouac and Itchy have had is a real shame and to be frank, a bit of an embarrassment to the profession. It goes to show that some will always take the path of least resistance or get away with what they can.
What I will say is that you shouldn't think of 'live' online teaching as a panacea, especially at Primary age. I've got two schools (primary), one has provided live teaching , the other hasn't but both have been pretty effective. We've managed to keep the service going since the wider opening in England (we've had around half the kids in since the 1st June) but it's been tricky.
What I wouldn't try and defend is the lack of communication. That's really not good enough. [Post edited 26 Jun 2020 13:32]
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| Castell Howell on 12:40 - Jun 26 with 1391 views | Swanjaxs |
Not knocking teachers, they do, in my opinion a fantastic job.
But what I can't understand is why, after every half term, summer break, they often call an "inset day".
Its no secret that teachers have pretty good holiday leave so would it hurt if they were asked to go in for a day before the kids came back 🤔 |  |
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| Castell Howell on 13:06 - Jun 26 with 1365 views | jack_lord |
| Castell Howell on 11:31 - Jun 26 by ItchySphincter |
Threads always twist and turn and I’m not teacher bashing but saying that is just trying to control the narrative because you don’t agree.
I’ll look forward to your new, endorsed thread. |
I know what you mean by threads going completely off piste.
My personal experiences of teaching staff during the last few months has been very negative. The teachers I know personally have been working one in fourteen days or less and when they are at school they say they are "babysitting" not teaching.
It does seem that all the teachers that are working really hard are either members or related to members of this forum. I think it would be better to have the separate thread just so there can be some balance and keep the Castell Howell one for that discussion. So here I am making it worse. | |
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| Castell Howell on 13:29 - Jun 26 with 1350 views | krunchykarrot |
We need to do our best to support CH i love their Celtic Pride beef and most of their products are a very good standard. I hope to visit if they keep open to the public in the near future as keeping the jobs is very important especially considering the state of our schools.
As for the left or right thing we need someone from government to stand up and be counted, BLM marches, beach and scousers need to be called out for what they are. We are gradually sinking into some politically correct insane society where you cant call something out. When i was brought up a twange was a twange no matter what colour, race or religion they were, this has been proved correct this month on a large scale.
And while im at it we need to get police with some balls, not run away from confrontation. Dick must be sacked she is useless. |  | | |
| Castell Howell on 22:07 - Jun 26 with 1245 views | Gwyn737 |
| Castell Howell on 12:40 - Jun 26 by Swanjaxs |
Not knocking teachers, they do, in my opinion a fantastic job.
But what I can't understand is why, after every half term, summer break, they often call an "inset day".
Its no secret that teachers have pretty good holiday leave so would it hurt if they were asked to go in for a day before the kids came back 🤔 |
Schools don’t do a good enough job of explaining INSET days.
Firstly they’re not taken from the school year. Children have 190 days teaching. There are 5 INSET days that are separate additional work days (training) for schools. These are usually attached to holidays to stop random days ‘off’ in the middle of a term.
I always thought it would be helpful if schools shared with parents what they do on these days; some do, some don’t which is a shame. | | | |
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| Castell Howell on 22:25 - Jun 26 with 1228 views | BarrySwan |
it is a real shame that CH are in trouble both for the owners and staff who may be affected. They have sponsored loads of local Welsh sport over the years including Carmarthen Dragons speedway when I used to take my Jawa 897 upright for a spin round the showground track on their training weekends.
I'd never heard of CH before but since have always noticed their vehicles and sponsorship of other sports all over the place.
Lets hope something is sorted out. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 07:17 - Jul 3 with 1084 views | Brynmill_Jack |
It’s a massive blow for an already poor area for well paid jobs. Plus their pies are blinding. I hope they get some government support. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Castell Howell on 07:40 - Jul 3 with 1066 views | pencoedjack |
| Castell Howell on 13:06 - Jun 26 by jack_lord |
I know what you mean by threads going completely off piste.
My personal experiences of teaching staff during the last few months has been very negative. The teachers I know personally have been working one in fourteen days or less and when they are at school they say they are "babysitting" not teaching.
It does seem that all the teachers that are working really hard are either members or related to members of this forum. I think it would be better to have the separate thread just so there can be some balance and keep the Castell Howell one for that discussion. So here I am making it worse. |
Indeed if teachers are ‘doing it for the kids ‘ why not give up their 7 week summer holiday. The majority have had 3 months of work on full pay.
Hypocrites |  | | |
| Castell Howell on 07:58 - Jul 3 with 1050 views | pikeypaul |
| Castell Howell on 07:40 - Jul 3 by pencoedjack |
Indeed if teachers are ‘doing it for the kids ‘ why not give up their 7 week summer holiday. The majority have had 3 months of work on full pay.
Hypocrites |
Yep, and like earlier explained on a normal “full” year they only do 39 weeks including inset days, even then with a very short working day. Their unions trying to politicise the pandemic will be remembered for a very long time.
OUT
AFLI |  |
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| Castell Howell on 10:23 - Jul 3 with 1004 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 07:58 - Jul 3 by pikeypaul |
Yep, and like earlier explained on a normal “full” year they only do 39 weeks including inset days, even then with a very short working day. Their unions trying to politicise the pandemic will be remembered for a very long time.
OUT
AFLI |
The ignorance on here is truly astounding. If anyone is home schooling they will begin to realise its not as easy as they think. Why don't you volunteer as teaching assistant if it is such a breeze-you can once you have a DBS check as you are all such experts?
Its like the assumption Universities are closed and that we get months off. Given the levels of expectation of teachers to have clearly structured lesson plans it is far from a easy job. Marking is a soul destroying experience. SO if a teacher has 30 hours contact time in a week, I would anticipate planning is 60 hours and marking done in the supposed preparation time, When do you think this prep is done-much in these 'never-ending' holidays. I think most people agree we need to get kids back to school if safe. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 10:47 - Jul 3 with 988 views | exhmrc1 |
| Castell Howell on 13:06 - Jun 26 by jack_lord |
I know what you mean by threads going completely off piste.
My personal experiences of teaching staff during the last few months has been very negative. The teachers I know personally have been working one in fourteen days or less and when they are at school they say they are "babysitting" not teaching.
It does seem that all the teachers that are working really hard are either members or related to members of this forum. I think it would be better to have the separate thread just so there can be some balance and keep the Castell Howell one for that discussion. So here I am making it worse. |
I dont know if I ever told you that ranking schools is a nonsense. You hear people say Olchfa or Bishopston are good schools because of their results.
In truth it means nothing because many parents in those schools can afford to pay for private tuition whereas places like Cefn Hengoed or Pentrehafod parents often cant.
Also many in those schools come from professional backgrounds and inherit their parents intellect and in general have more pushy parents than in the lower ranked schools.
Some universities eg Bristol, Exeter and Southampton offer lower contextual offers based on schooling because of this. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 10:53 - Jul 3 with 980 views | Catullus |
| Castell Howell on 14:31 - Jun 24 by Professor |
You are a disgrace. Most schools and all universities are facing considerable job losses. We (Liverpool) are a rich institution but already all non-tenured teaching contracts have gone. Pay and promotion freeze for the foreseeable future and likely 20% of staff to be made redundant. Research funding is being cut . It is bleak. We have the most irresponsible government in the developed world over this outbreak. We are reaching a point where we can ease lockdown. It was in place too late and this has extended the time to reduce infection thanks to Cummings (who is scum) and the liar 🤥 Johnson. Blame the unions ,why not, who are acting in people’s
Interest around health. That is what hat they are for. Look at the reality of these jokers you support. |
The only part I disagree with with is having the most ireesponsible government, I think the USA takes that one but we aren't far behind.
TJ's post, absolutely agreed.
My sons school (Coedffranc) has been fantastic. his teacher has stayed in touch, has held online meetings and has told us that if we have absolutely anything to ask, anything we want, we can contact him on Dojo, by his personal email or by phone. The headteacher has sent reguklar video messages updating us too.
Our son had his first day back in school Wednesday and the whole of the staff were involved in making sure it was properly organised and safe.
I'll put my hands up now to being lax as far as school work has gone. I discussed issues with teacher and he told me not to worry and to find ways to keep our sons mind active, if we couldn't get him doing set work without any problems or arguments. So up went a dartboard for some maths, out came the scrabble, tv went over to nat geo, discovery etc.
There are many lesons from this lockdown, where teachers are concerned that lesson has been what a fantastic job most of them do. Home schooling has been a real eye opener for many I'm sure.
Unless you are pikey anyway.
Edited to be on OP, it's really hard for everyone whose livelihood has been lost or is at risk. The Senedd needs to do soemthing to support businesses through this.
Very many jobs will be lost, have been already and I think those of us lucky enough to not be worse off (and in some cases even better off) should do our best to support local businesses. [Post edited 3 Jul 2020 10:59]
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| Castell Howell on 11:02 - Jul 3 with 969 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 10:47 - Jul 3 by exhmrc1 |
I dont know if I ever told you that ranking schools is a nonsense. You hear people say Olchfa or Bishopston are good schools because of their results.
In truth it means nothing because many parents in those schools can afford to pay for private tuition whereas places like Cefn Hengoed or Pentrehafod parents often cant.
Also many in those schools come from professional backgrounds and inherit their parents intellect and in general have more pushy parents than in the lower ranked schools.
Some universities eg Bristol, Exeter and Southampton offer lower contextual offers based on schooling because of this. |
This is a very good point. 'Good' schools self-perpetuate as parents expect it and will pay to support kids as they can. The added value a school can bring is really important-the best schools are those that outperform their socioeconomic catchment area, not just the best results. Where is live is incredibly middle-class. As we live on the border our kids can go to Wirral and vice versa. We have very good comprehensive in my town Neston), but many have kids in the Wirral Grammar system. If kids in Wirral fail. the eleven plus exam they try to get into Neston High. Few in the grammars are from poorer and non-professional backgrounds as you really need tutoring to pass the eleven plus. My daughter chose to go to Neston, my son wanted to go one of the grammars-yes we paid out hundreds in tutoring.
University entry is also biased as the 'better schools' game the UCAS system well. One thing we did was to stop using the personal statement. We decided to implement a new interview system and offer interviews to anyone meeting predicted grade and work experience criteria. We still are very white and middle class as a degree, but entry from Merseyside onto the Vet Programme has gone from 3% to near 20% of entry and we have around 10% BAME students. Some years when I first started we had none. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 11:02 - Jul 3 with 969 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Castell Howell on 07:40 - Jul 3 by pencoedjack |
Indeed if teachers are ‘doing it for the kids ‘ why not give up their 7 week summer holiday. The majority have had 3 months of work on full pay.
Hypocrites |
My daughter (who has worked throughout) would happily work through the summer if she could. She will be sending her pupils work sheets through the summer to ensure that they have lost out as little as possible when they return in September.
Her school will be closed because the local authority will not open it. They will not pay cleaners and catering staff through the summer. They routinely lay off dinner ladies the day before the end of term so that they don’t have to pay them during the holidays and then re-employ them in September. |  |
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| Castell Howell on 11:16 - Jul 3 with 949 views | Catullus |
| Castell Howell on 11:02 - Jul 3 by Joe_bradshaw |
My daughter (who has worked throughout) would happily work through the summer if she could. She will be sending her pupils work sheets through the summer to ensure that they have lost out as little as possible when they return in September.
Her school will be closed because the local authority will not open it. They will not pay cleaners and catering staff through the summer. They routinely lay off dinner ladies the day before the end of term so that they don’t have to pay them during the holidays and then re-employ them in September. |
Does that (yet again) indicate that funding is a core problem?
Lack of money is killing a lot of essential services, money is always the problem. There is always money for war, alwasy money to help out banks though very little of it ever filters down, it all seems to end up with the already wealthy, there is always money for pet projects and vanity projects which they tell us will benefit people for years to come. Legacy projects they call them, like the Olympics, they said it would regenrate, would create jobs and secure futures, did it? HS2, is that going to give the predicted rewards or just destroy acres of ancient woodlands, put people out of family homes and turn out to be the white elephant many predict?
Our own Senedd/WP/WG/WAG, whatever you call it, they spent heavily on Cardiff airport, now they need to find money to support businesses across the whole of Wales but will they? My money would be on lots of thumb twiddling and then blaming Westminster. Maybe a tax hike in Wales for any help that is given. | |
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| Castell Howell on 11:31 - Jul 3 with 938 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 11:16 - Jul 3 by Catullus |
Does that (yet again) indicate that funding is a core problem?
Lack of money is killing a lot of essential services, money is always the problem. There is always money for war, alwasy money to help out banks though very little of it ever filters down, it all seems to end up with the already wealthy, there is always money for pet projects and vanity projects which they tell us will benefit people for years to come. Legacy projects they call them, like the Olympics, they said it would regenrate, would create jobs and secure futures, did it? HS2, is that going to give the predicted rewards or just destroy acres of ancient woodlands, put people out of family homes and turn out to be the white elephant many predict?
Our own Senedd/WP/WG/WAG, whatever you call it, they spent heavily on Cardiff airport, now they need to find money to support businesses across the whole of Wales but will they? My money would be on lots of thumb twiddling and then blaming Westminster. Maybe a tax hike in Wales for any help that is given. |
Funding is the core problem of everything. We have chosen to go down a lower taxation and smaller state route like the US-if you need a service you pay. My view is we should have followed the way Germany and the Netherlands work with higher tax and a social responsibility to actually pay it. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 12:05 - Jul 3 with 917 views | exhmrc1 |
| Castell Howell on 11:31 - Jul 3 by Professor |
Funding is the core problem of everything. We have chosen to go down a lower taxation and smaller state route like the US-if you need a service you pay. My view is we should have followed the way Germany and the Netherlands work with higher tax and a social responsibility to actually pay it. |
Great point 40 years of doing this wrongly has underfunded all public services. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 12:18 - Jul 3 with 908 views | exhmrc1 |
| Castell Howell on 11:02 - Jul 3 by Professor |
This is a very good point. 'Good' schools self-perpetuate as parents expect it and will pay to support kids as they can. The added value a school can bring is really important-the best schools are those that outperform their socioeconomic catchment area, not just the best results. Where is live is incredibly middle-class. As we live on the border our kids can go to Wirral and vice versa. We have very good comprehensive in my town Neston), but many have kids in the Wirral Grammar system. If kids in Wirral fail. the eleven plus exam they try to get into Neston High. Few in the grammars are from poorer and non-professional backgrounds as you really need tutoring to pass the eleven plus. My daughter chose to go to Neston, my son wanted to go one of the grammars-yes we paid out hundreds in tutoring.
University entry is also biased as the 'better schools' game the UCAS system well. One thing we did was to stop using the personal statement. We decided to implement a new interview system and offer interviews to anyone meeting predicted grade and work experience criteria. We still are very white and middle class as a degree, but entry from Merseyside onto the Vet Programme has gone from 3% to near 20% of entry and we have around 10% BAME students. Some years when I first started we had none. |
I obviously dont know much about the area you live in other than things you and the Wirral warrior have said but it looks like you were brought up in a valley area similar to mine. In valley areas we all went to the local comp or I went to grammar before they brought comps in then moved. In the Swansea Valley or Neath area the society and schools arent as polarised as in Swansea.
Swansea has this reputation that Swansea West schools Olchfa, Bishopston, Gowerton and Gwyr are somehow better than others but it simply isnt true. They get better results for the reason Jack Lord and I have previously outlined but that doesnt make them better.
We moved our son several years ago because of bullying at Gowerton and he moved to Pentrehafod. What I found was that the kids in Pentre got far more support than Olchfa or Gowerton. He had a friend in his football team in Gowerton. One half term he had gone in for support classes. His mate in Olchfa didnt have them and neither did the boy in Gowerton.
It just goes to show that the perceived snobbery that West is Best in Swansea really isnt the case. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 12:39 - Jul 3 with 897 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 12:18 - Jul 3 by exhmrc1 |
I obviously dont know much about the area you live in other than things you and the Wirral warrior have said but it looks like you were brought up in a valley area similar to mine. In valley areas we all went to the local comp or I went to grammar before they brought comps in then moved. In the Swansea Valley or Neath area the society and schools arent as polarised as in Swansea.
Swansea has this reputation that Swansea West schools Olchfa, Bishopston, Gowerton and Gwyr are somehow better than others but it simply isnt true. They get better results for the reason Jack Lord and I have previously outlined but that doesnt make them better.
We moved our son several years ago because of bullying at Gowerton and he moved to Pentrehafod. What I found was that the kids in Pentre got far more support than Olchfa or Gowerton. He had a friend in his football team in Gowerton. One half term he had gone in for support classes. His mate in Olchfa didnt have them and neither did the boy in Gowerton.
It just goes to show that the perceived snobbery that West is Best in Swansea really isnt the case. |
I was born in Neath and went to Cimla Primary but my family are from the Rhondda and went to what was then a shocking poor primary and an OK Comprehensive in Treorchy. The polarisation in Wirral is incredible. The 'warrior's" kids went to the grammars I believe. They are good schools but kids need to be motivated and have great parental support to get in. This ends up being roughly down socioeconomic lines-with exceptions the penninsula is divided by the M53 and the west side is wealthy and the east poorer both in Wirral and the parts in Cheshire politically. The schools are the same-(except for Wirral Grammar on the eastern side and fee-paying Birkenhead). Neston has good schools, Ellesmere Port on the east much less so, so not just due to the elective system. This is the problem, this cycle of poorly educated people having kids who in turn are poorly educated. Its hard to the break the cycle. I fear the current government have no intention of trying. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 12:41 - Jul 3 with 896 views | Goldminer |
| Castell Howell on 11:16 - Jul 3 by Catullus |
Does that (yet again) indicate that funding is a core problem?
Lack of money is killing a lot of essential services, money is always the problem. There is always money for war, alwasy money to help out banks though very little of it ever filters down, it all seems to end up with the already wealthy, there is always money for pet projects and vanity projects which they tell us will benefit people for years to come. Legacy projects they call them, like the Olympics, they said it would regenrate, would create jobs and secure futures, did it? HS2, is that going to give the predicted rewards or just destroy acres of ancient woodlands, put people out of family homes and turn out to be the white elephant many predict?
Our own Senedd/WP/WG/WAG, whatever you call it, they spent heavily on Cardiff airport, now they need to find money to support businesses across the whole of Wales but will they? My money would be on lots of thumb twiddling and then blaming Westminster. Maybe a tax hike in Wales for any help that is given. |
School budgets in Swansea have been squeezes bt 3-5% for the last seven or eight years. And Swansea is amongst the lowest funding local authority in Wales per child in the Primary age group. Many schools are struggling and are laying off hard working TA's and doing away with a qualified teacher in Nursery. | | | |
| Castell Howell on 12:56 - Jul 3 with 885 views | Kerouac |
| Castell Howell on 12:18 - Jul 3 by exhmrc1 |
I obviously dont know much about the area you live in other than things you and the Wirral warrior have said but it looks like you were brought up in a valley area similar to mine. In valley areas we all went to the local comp or I went to grammar before they brought comps in then moved. In the Swansea Valley or Neath area the society and schools arent as polarised as in Swansea.
Swansea has this reputation that Swansea West schools Olchfa, Bishopston, Gowerton and Gwyr are somehow better than others but it simply isnt true. They get better results for the reason Jack Lord and I have previously outlined but that doesnt make them better.
We moved our son several years ago because of bullying at Gowerton and he moved to Pentrehafod. What I found was that the kids in Pentre got far more support than Olchfa or Gowerton. He had a friend in his football team in Gowerton. One half term he had gone in for support classes. His mate in Olchfa didnt have them and neither did the boy in Gowerton.
It just goes to show that the perceived snobbery that West is Best in Swansea really isnt the case. |
I totally agree that West isn't best.
I know of people who have paid for tutoring. In every one of those cases these services were paid for not because the parents were looking to gain an advantage for their child, rather that they were trying to help their kids to catch up after receiving a shockingly poor education at Primary school.
Kids from one Primary school were arriving at Bishopston and were soon dominating the bottom sets, because they had not been taught the basics at Primary school despite the said school having a fantastic catchment area and small class sizes.
They complain about resources too, despite having everything they need and the latest technology in the class room.
...the problem is the methods of teaching and this idiot idea that kids should be free to explore the classroom and learn at their own pace.
They are getting to Comp undisciplined, unable to sit at a table, concentrate and listen, having not learned to read, write, spell and do basic mathematics properly...and that problem is Wales wide.
I volunteered as a TA once and was shocked to discover that children in the top set of Y8 Mathematics had a poorer understanding of basic Mathematics than my child who was in Y4.
My advice to parents is don't assume for one second that you can trust the education of your children to the state alone. |  |
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| Castell Howell on 13:07 - Jul 3 with 867 views | Professor |
| Castell Howell on 12:56 - Jul 3 by Kerouac |
I totally agree that West isn't best.
I know of people who have paid for tutoring. In every one of those cases these services were paid for not because the parents were looking to gain an advantage for their child, rather that they were trying to help their kids to catch up after receiving a shockingly poor education at Primary school.
Kids from one Primary school were arriving at Bishopston and were soon dominating the bottom sets, because they had not been taught the basics at Primary school despite the said school having a fantastic catchment area and small class sizes.
They complain about resources too, despite having everything they need and the latest technology in the class room.
...the problem is the methods of teaching and this idiot idea that kids should be free to explore the classroom and learn at their own pace.
They are getting to Comp undisciplined, unable to sit at a table, concentrate and listen, having not learned to read, write, spell and do basic mathematics properly...and that problem is Wales wide.
I volunteered as a TA once and was shocked to discover that children in the top set of Y8 Mathematics had a poorer understanding of basic Mathematics than my child who was in Y4.
My advice to parents is don't assume for one second that you can trust the education of your children to the state alone. |
I'm fortunate my kids went to an excellent primary. My experiences were of Parc Primary (Cwmparc) in the 1970s. Our education was dire. We were a long way behind those from Treorchy or Ton Pentre. I made this point last week as an external examiner for another university. They are leaders in new teaching theory and I had to comment on "student as producer'. Meaning the students producing their own education via research/performance etc. This is fine in the latter stages but like anything in bioscience you need the basics-to speak the language before writing poetry. | | | |
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