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it was only san marino on 07:43 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft
Not sure this is fair.
A) They pretty much played the same teams except Gibraltar and some of the Balkan sides. B) Many of the decent sides of today (the majority of African and Asian qualifiers) weren’t so decent then.
Swings and roundabouts for me. He’s earned it.
Not quite.
In 1992 when Lineker's England career ended there were 33 teams in UEFA:
This is an increase of 67% and the bulk of those countries are poor sides with zero chance of ever qualifying for a tournament.
To qualify for the 1990 World Cup England had to navigate a group containing Sweden, Poland and Albania.. The 2022 qualifying group contained Poland, Hungary, Albania, Andorra and San Marino. The 2 pointless matches against Albania are now 6 matches.
Also, although there has been a significant and substantial improvement in Africa and Asia, we seldom played those countries anyway as FIFA limited their representation at World Cups ensuring only the best European/South American teams participated.
In fact, it wasn't until Spain 82 that we faced an Asian qualifier at the World Cup and 1986 that we faced an African.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2021 13:15]
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it was only san marino on 14:03 - Nov 17 with 1440 views
i am 55 now and have never seen England score ten, 8s and 9s never double figures. ok just san marino but we have not done it before and have done now, of course if it was v scotland, pure heaven, it wasn't but you have to play what's in front of you. some may have dozed during the game and waoke to see "10" and thought , did we score a try? lol shame it wasn't 15! first job was qualify from this group and done, no p/offs no dramas no real competition , the real test comes in the desert being chased by huge spice making dune worms, oh thats another thread, sorry!
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it was only san marino on 18:34 - Nov 17 with 1371 views
It's clear a change of sorts should be made, I think there's a key difference between smaller nation
and what are in affect Principalities .
I think the key point with a very small number is that they are actually being left further behind than ever if that is possible - from 33K people you'd imagine must sides in the top 6 divisions at least ought beat them.
FIFA rankings are a bit odd I think as many sides will simply never ever play each other, there would certainly be some kind of lower world cup - bit like the England C team (for National league and lower)
Are San Marino truly the poorest side in the world?
Might be fare better against American Samoa, who if I remember rightly last 26-0 against Australia not that long ago, giving John Aloisi 12 goals or something.
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it was only san marino on 19:07 - Nov 17 with 1357 views
This is an increase of 67% and the bulk of those countries are poor sides with zero chance of ever qualifying for a tournament.
To qualify for the 1990 World Cup England had to navigate a group containing Sweden, Poland and Albania.. The 2022 qualifying group contained Poland, Hungary, Albania, Andorra and San Marino. The 2 pointless matches against Albania are now 6 matches.
Also, although there has been a significant and substantial improvement in Africa and Asia, we seldom played those countries anyway as FIFA limited their representation at World Cups ensuring only the best European/South American teams participated.
In fact, it wasn't until Spain 82 that we faced an Asian qualifier at the World Cup and 1986 that we faced an African.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2021 13:15]
Quite!
The USSR played in 1992.
Are the countries which sprang from it ie Ukraine, Georgia, and Russia who have all qualified on their own steam or come close not good enough? Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania too have run us close before in matches.
Same for Yugoslavian sides Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Croatia. All bar Bosnia have qualified for major tournaments.
That's 11 sides out of the 22 you mentioned that could be described as Zero Chance of qualifying.
Albania qualified for Euro 16 (when we didn't) so I don't think they deserve the label of pointless. Came a fanny hair of qualifying from the knockouts too, nearly drawing with France and beating Romania.
My point is the bulk of those countries are not poor sides without a hope of qualifying, and even if they were, they could be qualifiers in the future, or better sides will fade like Scotland and Hungary did after their peaks.
Iceland were forced to play the Orkney Islands a couple of decade ago in the Island Games. Now they regularly qualify and beat big nations (and England).
Playing San Marino AND Andorra was a fluke by the way. We've certainly not been matched with the likes of both of them before that I can think of.
Look at Group C and Group B! No minnows there!
Anyway, I think they should stay and and think arrogance about micronations might lead to a fall one day.
I'd recommend the film Next Goal Wins if you want to see the importance of supporting smaller sides:
[Post edited 17 Nov 2021 19:07]
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it was only san marino on 19:19 - Nov 17 with 1343 views
it was only san marino on 16:14 - Nov 16 by QPR_John
Surely the point is the position of the arm not whether it was ball to hand. Ball going well wide does not effect handball
Well he had it raised for offside, I think Dixon made a comment about it being in an unnatural position but it is the natural position of the arm of a defender appealing offside.
I'd also consider the ball going well wide for context, it makes it less likely that he's touched it to effect the ball in any way and more probable that he was appealing for offside.
Generally I agree with francisbowles take on the incident and think that the referee let himself down with booking him for it as well. What has happened to using common sense?
it was only san marino on 19:07 - Nov 17 by BazzaInTheLoft
Quite!
The USSR played in 1992.
Are the countries which sprang from it ie Ukraine, Georgia, and Russia who have all qualified on their own steam or come close not good enough? Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania too have run us close before in matches.
Same for Yugoslavian sides Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Croatia. All bar Bosnia have qualified for major tournaments.
That's 11 sides out of the 22 you mentioned that could be described as Zero Chance of qualifying.
Albania qualified for Euro 16 (when we didn't) so I don't think they deserve the label of pointless. Came a fanny hair of qualifying from the knockouts too, nearly drawing with France and beating Romania.
My point is the bulk of those countries are not poor sides without a hope of qualifying, and even if they were, they could be qualifiers in the future, or better sides will fade like Scotland and Hungary did after their peaks.
Iceland were forced to play the Orkney Islands a couple of decade ago in the Island Games. Now they regularly qualify and beat big nations (and England).
Playing San Marino AND Andorra was a fluke by the way. We've certainly not been matched with the likes of both of them before that I can think of.
Look at Group C and Group B! No minnows there!
Anyway, I think they should stay and and think arrogance about micronations might lead to a fall one day.
I'd recommend the film Next Goal Wins if you want to see the importance of supporting smaller sides:
[Post edited 17 Nov 2021 19:07]
"Albania qualified for Euro 16"
They did, but it was their first ever tournament and they qualified mainly because UEFA decided that a 55 team federation should have a 24 team finals. The cards were decked in their favour.
Iceland has been participating in qualifying rounds since 1972 by the way. Any other tournaments they participated in since were through choice, not being forced.
Those countries of the extra 22 you mentioned are better than most of the influx but they formed the solid base of the teams they replaced, especially Croatia who represented a huge chunk of the Yugoslavia side.
I've seen Next Goal Wins, great documentary and I'd also add 'Stamping Grounds' by Charlie Connolly which is a book following Lichtenstein in a World Cup qualifying campaign. However, the fact remains that as nice as it is to include these nations it is a waste of time for most countries and top goalscorer records since 1992 are ridiculously inflated as a consequence of their inclusion.
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it was only san marino on 08:10 - Nov 18 with 1194 views
it was only san marino on 07:43 - Nov 16 by BazzaInTheLoft
Not sure this is fair.
A) They pretty much played the same teams except Gibraltar and some of the Balkan sides. B) Many of the decent sides of today (the majority of African and Asian qualifiers) weren’t so decent then.
Swings and roundabouts for me. He’s earned it.
Agreed.
What Greavesie has taken to the next life is England's best goals per games ratio, puts the others in the shade and will surely never be beaten.
it was only san marino on 08:10 - Nov 18 by ngbqpr
Agreed.
What Greavesie has taken to the next life is England's best goals per games ratio, puts the others in the shade and will surely never be beaten.
Greaves's 44 goals in 59 games was greatly helped by 19 goals in 13 Home International games, including 10 in 4 against Northern Ireland. He also scored 4 in two friendlies against Peru! One goal in seven World Cup games.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2021 9:40]
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it was only san marino on 09:37 - Nov 18 with 1111 views
it was only san marino on 08:10 - Nov 18 by ngbqpr
Agreed.
What Greavesie has taken to the next life is England's best goals per games ratio, puts the others in the shade and will surely never be beaten.
I also agree that Kane has earned it. As Southgate said he has been rested for some of the fixtures against the small nations.
Even Greavsie had plenty of games in the annual Home Internationals, against poor Welsh and Northern Ireland sides and even Scotland had bad years too. Jimmy scored 10 goals in four matches against NI. There were plenty of whipping boys around in those days too. Luxembourg, Cyprus and Malta for example. All sides that have vastly improved over time. Countries like Norway and Switzerland were a pretty soft touch then as well. Jimmy was in England teams that scored nine as well as eight four times.
None of this is meant to denigrate Greaves, who I consider the be the best goal scorer that we have ever had. Just illustrating that Kane's record is pretty impressive too.
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it was only san marino on 20:06 - Nov 18 with 997 views
greavsie used to argue on tv that the smaller teams should be in their own group so they learn to win, he meant luxembourg etc, in 40 years how many of that ilk have improved? cyprus and israel yes but not many
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it was only san marino on 20:59 - Nov 18 with 957 views
it was only san marino on 20:06 - Nov 18 by themodfather
greavsie used to argue on tv that the smaller teams should be in their own group so they learn to win, he meant luxembourg etc, in 40 years how many of that ilk have improved? cyprus and israel yes but not many
This is Iceland’s (2016 Qtr Finalists) qualifying record in 1972:
Iceland has got more than eleven times the population that San Marino has. With a population of roughly 30000 (so a male population of circa 15k and realistically a very small pool to choose from at any one time), you're dreaming if you think that San Marino in 40 years will be at the standard Iceland are now.
One win in 30 years against a similar joke standard team Leichtenstein says it all. I would wager in another 30 years, they will still be having five, six, seven goals a game put past them.
it was only san marino on 22:36 - Nov 18 by CamberleyR
Iceland has got more than eleven times the population that San Marino has. With a population of roughly 30000 (so a male population of circa 15k and realistically a very small pool to choose from at any one time), you're dreaming if you think that San Marino in 40 years will be at the standard Iceland are now.
One win in 30 years against a similar joke standard team Leichtenstein says it all. I would wager in another 30 years, they will still be having five, six, seven goals a game put past them.
We have 23 times the population of Iceland…
Will San Marino win a WC? No Will they snare a big side one day? Yes
As long as they don’t mind getting putting themselves up for getting walloped 10 why should we turn our noses up at handing them that walloping? It’s no skin off our nose.
If Man City, Liverpool, or Chelsea applied the same argument to the FA Cup we’d never get a look in. That same superior attitude is what nearly delivered us the European Super League.
Just my thoughts. Long live the underdog.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2021 22:48]
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it was only san marino on 23:42 - Nov 18 with 835 views
it was only san marino on 22:46 - Nov 18 by BazzaInTheLoft
We have 23 times the population of Iceland…
Will San Marino win a WC? No Will they snare a big side one day? Yes
As long as they don’t mind getting putting themselves up for getting walloped 10 why should we turn our noses up at handing them that walloping? It’s no skin off our nose.
If Man City, Liverpool, or Chelsea applied the same argument to the FA Cup we’d never get a look in. That same superior attitude is what nearly delivered us the European Super League.
Just my thoughts. Long live the underdog.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2021 22:48]
Well, we do have the Nations League as well, which sounded a load of nonsense but which has actually been brilliant - closer games all round and a chance for smaller countries to win more than once every 12 years. A perfect complement to “proper” competition.
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