| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) 08:42 - Feb 2 with 7251 views | kingsburyR |
I was browsing thru the BBC sports website when I see Rangers and Beale being lorded over last nights away performance at Hearts.
Realistically what level would Hearts (third in the Prem) fit into in the English pyramid?
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| Dont know why we bother. .... but we do! |
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:25 - Feb 7 with 1754 views | Rs_Holy |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:17 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
Did you miss Rangers in a European Final just 9 months ago? |
I'm talking about the Competitiveness and worth of the League, not just its best 2 teams.
How did the other Scottish European qualifiers get on this season?
btw Rangers attained the dubious honour this year of having the worst group record in the Champions League (ever).
[Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:28]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:37 - Feb 7 with 1713 views | HuckerMOTM |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:25 - Feb 7 by Rs_Holy |
I'm talking about the Competitiveness and worth of the League, not just its best 2 teams.
How did the other Scottish European qualifiers get on this season?
btw Rangers attained the dubious honour this year of having the worst group record in the Champions League (ever).
[Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:28]
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Define 'competitive'? Do you think the remaining 10 teams are evenly matched for the most part?
Do you think it's the only league in Europe/World with only 2 teams regularly challenging for the title?
How European Leagues do have multiple teams reaching the latter stages of the European tournaments?
The Champions League record for Rangers this season doesn't remove the fact that they have played in 2 European finals in the last 14 seasons which is something most teams would kill for. That's more than AC Milan have, for example. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:47]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:47 - Feb 7 with 1702 views | CamberleyR |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 11:17 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
And yet both have reached European Finals in the last 20 years....
How many other countries outside the big 4 of England, Germany, Italy and Spain can say they've had 2 sides reach European Finals in the last 20 years...? |
A few actually. The last 20 years in the UEFA Cup/Europa League Portugal have had four different sides reach finals with Porto and Benfica doing it twice, Ukraine have had two as have Russia as have the Netherlands. Porto also won the 2004 Champions League for good measure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:56]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:57 - Feb 7 with 1661 views | HuckerMOTM |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:47 - Feb 7 by CamberleyR |
A few actually. The last 20 years in the UEFA Cup/Europa League Portugal have had four different sides reach finals with Porto and Benfica doing it twice, Ukraine have had two as have Russia as have the Netherlands. Porto also won the 2004 Champions League for good measure. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:56]
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55 leagues in UEFA.
51 once you remove the big 4.
Out of the 51 only 5 -including Scotland - have had more than one club reach a European Final.
Yep, that's the stat to prove how crap the Scottish League is! [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:58]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:09 - Feb 7 with 1643 views | Rs_Holy |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 12:37 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
Define 'competitive'? Do you think the remaining 10 teams are evenly matched for the most part?
Do you think it's the only league in Europe/World with only 2 teams regularly challenging for the title?
How European Leagues do have multiple teams reaching the latter stages of the European tournaments?
The Champions League record for Rangers this season doesn't remove the fact that they have played in 2 European finals in the last 14 seasons which is something most teams would kill for. That's more than AC Milan have, for example. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 12:47]
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Okay Hucker I admire your sticking up for the Scottish Prem but in all honesty apart from Celtic and Rangers its not very good at the mo... It simply isn't.
the gap between 2nd and 3rd is currently 18 points (last season it finished 28 points... 28 points!!!).
Other countires have big teams who dominate winning the title but the gap in those counties is no where near as big as it is in Scotland.
If you take my argument that an 18 point gap between the 2nd and 3rd place team makes the league a bit rubbish then how do other big leagues compare...
the Prem - 3 points
Seria A - 3 points
La Liga - 6 points
Dutch Eredisie - 1 point
Bundeliga - 2 points
French Ligue 1 - level
I havent got time to look up any more but I would be surprised if any others have an 18 point gap??? Go on Hucker prove me wrong  [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 13:10]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:19 - Feb 7 with 1614 views | HuckerMOTM |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:09 - Feb 7 by Rs_Holy |
Okay Hucker I admire your sticking up for the Scottish Prem but in all honesty apart from Celtic and Rangers its not very good at the mo... It simply isn't.
the gap between 2nd and 3rd is currently 18 points (last season it finished 28 points... 28 points!!!).
Other countires have big teams who dominate winning the title but the gap in those counties is no where near as big as it is in Scotland.
If you take my argument that an 18 point gap between the 2nd and 3rd place team makes the league a bit rubbish then how do other big leagues compare...
the Prem - 3 points
Seria A - 3 points
La Liga - 6 points
Dutch Eredisie - 1 point
Bundeliga - 2 points
French Ligue 1 - level
I havent got time to look up any more but I would be surprised if any others have an 18 point gap??? Go on Hucker prove me wrong [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 13:10]
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You stick 2 of the biggest teams in World Football into a league in a country with a population of 5.4m and see how close the 3rd place team gets.... that's obvious but my question was how do you personally think the other teams are matched for the most part?
Are you basing competitiveness on who wins the title or on the overall standard of the league? Most European countries only have a handful of teams capable of winning trophies and that's in countries with populations which far exceed Scotland's.
In fact, the fact that Scotland has TWO dominant teams who also have a history of success in Europe despite having a population less than London is something to celebrate not use as a stick to beat them with. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 13:20]
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:27 - Feb 7 with 1608 views | Rs_Holy |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:19 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
You stick 2 of the biggest teams in World Football into a league in a country with a population of 5.4m and see how close the 3rd place team gets.... that's obvious but my question was how do you personally think the other teams are matched for the most part?
Are you basing competitiveness on who wins the title or on the overall standard of the league? Most European countries only have a handful of teams capable of winning trophies and that's in countries with populations which far exceed Scotland's.
In fact, the fact that Scotland has TWO dominant teams who also have a history of success in Europe despite having a population less than London is something to celebrate not use as a stick to beat them with. [Post edited 7 Feb 2023 13:20]
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Okay Hucker, fair play (i better get back to work now)... Maybe one day Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and a few other will step up to the plate? | | | |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:45 - Feb 7 with 1586 views | CamberleyR |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:27 - Feb 7 by Rs_Holy |
Okay Hucker, fair play (i better get back to work now)... Maybe one day Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and a few other will step up to the plate? |
Very little to almost no chance of another Alex Ferguson Aberdeen or Jim McLean Dundee United happening again upsetting the big two anytime soon. | |
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:46 - Feb 7 with 1579 views | HuckerMOTM |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:27 - Feb 7 by Rs_Holy |
Okay Hucker, fair play (i better get back to work now)... Maybe one day Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and a few other will step up to the plate? |
All have had success in the past and Aberdeen have won an European Trophy which is more than all but 13 English clubs ...
The problem, and you might recognise this, is that the TV and gates receipt deals have been geared towards to bigger teams with the global fanbases for the last 2 decades meaning those clubs have been propelled into financial positions which other clubs can't compete with.
Money has killed the Scottish League as it was but its still interesting below the big 2 and despite playing in a really shit league - (c) Dave from Dagenham - those big 2 have played in 3 European Finals in 20 years and one of them has appeared in more European finals than AC Milan in the last 14 seasons... | | | |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:49 - Feb 7 with 1581 views | TheChef |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:27 - Feb 7 by Rs_Holy |
Okay Hucker, fair play (i better get back to work now)... Maybe one day Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and a few other will step up to the plate? |
Dundee United and Aberdeen won the League in the 80s (Hearts almost did), but otherwise it has been Celtic and Rangers ad nauseam. Which for me is not the sign of a competitive league (putting quality to one side). And we now see the English Premier League being similar in that respect, unfortunately.
It would be great for those other teams to properly compete again but finances/popularity will always count against them versus the Old Firm.
Oh well only a matter of time until the European Super League happens and Celtic and Rangers can take their place amongst the elite. |  |
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 22:59 - Feb 7 with 1392 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Interesting conversation. Can't stand the two Glasgow clubs but Hucker's views have been educational. |  |
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| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 23:34 - Feb 7 with 1360 views | SydneyRs |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:46 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
All have had success in the past and Aberdeen have won an European Trophy which is more than all but 13 English clubs ...
The problem, and you might recognise this, is that the TV and gates receipt deals have been geared towards to bigger teams with the global fanbases for the last 2 decades meaning those clubs have been propelled into financial positions which other clubs can't compete with.
Money has killed the Scottish League as it was but its still interesting below the big 2 and despite playing in a really shit league - (c) Dave from Dagenham - those big 2 have played in 3 European Finals in 20 years and one of them has appeared in more European finals than AC Milan in the last 14 seasons... |
Until the mid to late 80s it was quite competitive. As you mentioned Aberdeen won in Europe and Dundee United also played in a European final.
Rangers started the money dominance in the late 80s by spending big on international players, including several of the England team (Woods, Butcher, Hateley etc) taking advantage of English clubs being banned from European competition at the time to tempt players to Scotland. They won nine titles in a row during that period as nobody else including Celtic had anything close to their spending power.
Of course we now know Rangers were also cheating for many years (2001-2010) to get a financial advantage, in terms of how they were paying players and staff as well as tax avoidance, which resulted in their liquidation and the foundation of a new club in 2012. Weirdly though they were not stripped of a single trophy won during that time.
Celtic had a takeover in the mid 90s which meant they were finally able to compete again, so instead of one club dominating there were now two and so it has remained.
The champions league is only adding to this situation. First place now gets auto entry to the group stage (used to have to play qualifying rounds) and the riches that offers. Second can also get in through qualifying as Rangers did this season. Nobody other than these two is likely to finish in the top two anytime soon so it seems the situation will only get worse for the remaining clubs.
In spite of all this, its worth noting that St Johnstone have won more trophies than the new Rangers since their 2012 formation! | | | |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 07:13 - Feb 8 with 1289 views | Malintabuk |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 10:24 - Feb 7 by HuckerMOTM |
Celtic and Rangers have both reached European Finals in the last 20 years - Rangers have reached 2 - and would be among the biggest supported teams in the Premier League.
That's on Scottish TV money....
With English TV money and the inevitably that both would be bought by significantly wealthy overseas owners within a few months of their application to join the English system being accepted they'd be competing for honours within a few years.
It is staggering that English fans still don't understand how big the Old Firm are...
As for Hearts, with English TV money they'd 100% be regular participants in the Premier League and at worse outside the Play Offs in the Championships most years. |
If I could have up voted this twice I would have.
My much better half is Scottish and her family is Gray, her uncle played for GRangers, Blackburn and PNE just after the war
I have been to the old firm Derby twice and it's really is incredible.
Totally agree if they got into the English system with the money that brings with it within a few years either one would achieve top 4 in the prem.
Beale is still a know though | | | |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:52 - Feb 8 with 1161 views | HuckerMOTM |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 23:34 - Feb 7 by SydneyRs |
Until the mid to late 80s it was quite competitive. As you mentioned Aberdeen won in Europe and Dundee United also played in a European final.
Rangers started the money dominance in the late 80s by spending big on international players, including several of the England team (Woods, Butcher, Hateley etc) taking advantage of English clubs being banned from European competition at the time to tempt players to Scotland. They won nine titles in a row during that period as nobody else including Celtic had anything close to their spending power.
Of course we now know Rangers were also cheating for many years (2001-2010) to get a financial advantage, in terms of how they were paying players and staff as well as tax avoidance, which resulted in their liquidation and the foundation of a new club in 2012. Weirdly though they were not stripped of a single trophy won during that time.
Celtic had a takeover in the mid 90s which meant they were finally able to compete again, so instead of one club dominating there were now two and so it has remained.
The champions league is only adding to this situation. First place now gets auto entry to the group stage (used to have to play qualifying rounds) and the riches that offers. Second can also get in through qualifying as Rangers did this season. Nobody other than these two is likely to finish in the top two anytime soon so it seems the situation will only get worse for the remaining clubs.
In spite of all this, its worth noting that St Johnstone have won more trophies than the new Rangers since their 2012 formation! |
There was always a cluster of sides who could win the title in Scotland post WW2 until the 1980s.
Take a look at the post-WW2 years:
1950s Champions: Rangers, Hibs, Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts
1960s Champions: Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Kilmarnock, Celtic
1970s Champions: Just Celtic and Rangers
1980s Champions: Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee United, Celtic
It was only when Ibrox was turned into an all-seater stadium and their ticket revenue soared past everyone else as a consequence that they become sole custodians of the title for 9 years and only once Celtic had renovated Parkhead were they able to compete again. By this stage, however, SKY TV had invested into the Scottish League but only really into the Old Firm and, as you say, the access to the Champions League has further exasperated the gulf between those two and all others.
Off on a slight tangent, to show how strong the league was, both Dundee clubs and both Glasgow Clubs had reached European Cup Semi-Finals - THE European Cup, not UEFA CUP or ECWC - before 2 sides from London had done so (the latter not occurring until 2003/04 when Chelsea reached the European Cup/Champions League Semi Final... The City of Liverpool has not provided 2 clubs to the Semi-Final stage of THE European Cup on another slight tangent)
One thing to pick you up on, and I say this as someone from a Celtic family but as someone who doesn't consider myself a Celtic fan, it's become an article of faith among the Celtic support to tell anyone who will listen that Rangers are a new club however, for the benefit of balance, this is not an opinion shared legally or by the governing bodies from the SFA through to FIFA. The listed owners of Rangers Football Club are a new company but there is no legal or Governing Body acceptance that the club they own is new. Think Pink Floyd and the creation of Pink Floyd 1987.
As I said, just for balance. | | | |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 23:28 - Feb 9 with 960 views | SydneyRs |
| Hearts (or Hibs, or Aberdeen etc etc) on 13:52 - Feb 8 by HuckerMOTM |
There was always a cluster of sides who could win the title in Scotland post WW2 until the 1980s.
Take a look at the post-WW2 years:
1950s Champions: Rangers, Hibs, Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts
1960s Champions: Rangers, Hearts, Dundee, Kilmarnock, Celtic
1970s Champions: Just Celtic and Rangers
1980s Champions: Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee United, Celtic
It was only when Ibrox was turned into an all-seater stadium and their ticket revenue soared past everyone else as a consequence that they become sole custodians of the title for 9 years and only once Celtic had renovated Parkhead were they able to compete again. By this stage, however, SKY TV had invested into the Scottish League but only really into the Old Firm and, as you say, the access to the Champions League has further exasperated the gulf between those two and all others.
Off on a slight tangent, to show how strong the league was, both Dundee clubs and both Glasgow Clubs had reached European Cup Semi-Finals - THE European Cup, not UEFA CUP or ECWC - before 2 sides from London had done so (the latter not occurring until 2003/04 when Chelsea reached the European Cup/Champions League Semi Final... The City of Liverpool has not provided 2 clubs to the Semi-Final stage of THE European Cup on another slight tangent)
One thing to pick you up on, and I say this as someone from a Celtic family but as someone who doesn't consider myself a Celtic fan, it's become an article of faith among the Celtic support to tell anyone who will listen that Rangers are a new club however, for the benefit of balance, this is not an opinion shared legally or by the governing bodies from the SFA through to FIFA. The listed owners of Rangers Football Club are a new company but there is no legal or Governing Body acceptance that the club they own is new. Think Pink Floyd and the creation of Pink Floyd 1987.
As I said, just for balance. |
All that aside I struggle to see how you can be the same club yet just walk away from all your debts. They were liquidated, they didn't go into and come out of administration.
If they want to be considered as such then they should have paid all their creditors. They also should have been stripped of every honour won during the period they were found to be cheating. Laughably the SFA apparently found "no sporting advantage" to overpaying players and staff using EBTs! But still decided to kick them out of the league...
As for their 80s/90s success, that was down to being bankrolled by David Murray much more than any increased matchday revenue. It was also an ongoing joke during that period that Celtic's money was kept in a biscuit tin by the then board which was rarely opened. Meanwhile Rangers were spending big thanks to their chairman and financial backing.
Celtic's fortunes changed after the Fergus McCann takeover in the 90s after which they could actually compete in the transfer market. | | | |
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