| Hillsborough 13:10 - Sep 12 with 7492 views | exiled_dictator |
Just been listening to the Prime Ministers speech in Parliament regarding the findings of the latest report.
Absolute tragedy & travesty for the 96 families.
Checking for alcohol levels in children?
Blatantly lying
Ignoring evidence
Kelvin MacKenzie, I hope you can still sleep at night.
A long time coming, but still very difficult to comprehend. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Hillsborough on 21:56 - Sep 12 with 961 views | A40Bosh |
| Hillsborough on 21:41 - Sep 12 by PeterHucker |
I've never understood this argument that "oh some fans were drunk so fck em, it's partly their fault".
Surely we've all been to a football match when drunk. In the late 90s, it was the only way most of us could stand to watch!
It was an FA Cup semi-final back in the days when that was a big deal, so of course some people would have had a few beers. So what. Doesn't mean they deserve to get crushed to death.
Some people on this thread are letting their dislike of scousers or Liverpool FC blind them to the truth that is obvious to everybody else.
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In response to Watford about people complaining about the year before being partly responsible for still attending.
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/2009/04/15/joseph-mccarth
I doubt Joe had been aware of the issue the year before because no one had died.
He was a 21yr old uni student in his 3rd year at Sheffield, so are you saying that he should not have bought a ticket for himself and his brother.
Does he bear fault for his own death, for the guilt carried by his brother who got delayed on the M1 on the way up and arrived after 3pm to find carnage and his brother dead. Is it then Joes fault that Sean his old man could not get over it and died a year later.
Joe was in my class for 7 years fom 11-18 and to say that he bears some responsibility for his own death is an absolute disgrace.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Hillsborough on 22:00 - Sep 12 with 954 views | WatfordR |
| Hillsborough on 21:47 - Sep 12 by smegma |
In a word NO. Jesus this is as interesting as banging your head against a brick wall while simultaneously getting a stanley knife and slicing my own eye balls. |
If you genuinely believe that, then I'm sorry, but you are wrong. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 22:02 - Sep 12 with 941 views | daveB |
| Hillsborough on 21:16 - Sep 12 by Bedford_R |
I'm saying that the extensively researched report that was published today that did not lay the blame at the fans is the most comprehensive report we have had on this whole sorry affair. To keep on harping on about lies that have been peddled by the police for years that have been revealed in their true light and context today is wrong. |
no one is saying the blame only lies with the fans, i don't think i've ever said or thought that since it happened although i do remeber that day we were playing Boro at home and many fans on the day just assumed Liverpool had kicked off again, they had a history for it which is why it was so easy for the police to cover it up, obviously we soon found out that's not what happened.
Those who died the majority had been in the ground since 2pm and it should never have been allowed to happen, finally the police and the lengths they went to cover this up has been exposed which is fantastic but i think i'm still entitled to my opinion and having been to many many games since when people turn up late without tickets this sort of thing is always a possibility, there was almost a crush at palace last time we played them partly due to only one small exit for 2,000 people but also due to idiots pushing and shoving and not being able to wait.
Fair play if people want to believe on that day no Liverpool fans turned up without tickets and none of them pushed to get in once the gate was opened, personally i think that's as stupid as pretending the police had nothing to do with it for years.
On a side note can we now rip up the taylor report as it was based on utter bollocks |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 22:14 - Sep 12 with 919 views | WatfordR |
| Hillsborough on 21:56 - Sep 12 by A40Bosh |
In response to Watford about people complaining about the year before being partly responsible for still attending.
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/liverpool-fc/2009/04/15/joseph-mccarth
I doubt Joe had been aware of the issue the year before because no one had died.
He was a 21yr old uni student in his 3rd year at Sheffield, so are you saying that he should not have bought a ticket for himself and his brother.
Does he bear fault for his own death, for the guilt carried by his brother who got delayed on the M1 on the way up and arrived after 3pm to find carnage and his brother dead. Is it then Joes fault that Sean his old man could not get over it and died a year later.
Joe was in my class for 7 years fom 11-18 and to say that he bears some responsibility for his own death is an absolute disgrace.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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I said
"how many of those who were aware of those problems (ie at the 88 game) still chose to ignore the risks to their own safety"
so I'd say if he didnt know there were problems in 88, then no.
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| Hillsborough on 22:14 - Sep 12 with 914 views | eastside_r |
| Hillsborough on 21:38 - Sep 12 by WatfordR |
No question that today's findings have correctly identified the failure of all authorities concerned.
However, if as you say Liverpool and Forest fans complained about the lack of organisation in 88, how many of those who were aware of those problems still chose to ignore the risks to their own safety, possibly also that of other family members, and attend in 89? Don't those individuals have some responsibility for themselves? Don't Liverpool FC have some responsibility for their fans by ignoring the complaints of lack of organisation in 88 by not boycotting the game in 89?
Police, rescue services have been proven to have sought to avoid responsibility by falsifying statements etc. Others have sought to avoid responsibility be refusing to acknowledge that they had any to start with, and however minor or marginal that responsibility was, that isnt right or fair either. |
Watford
The report goes into much detail of the previous incidents and it apportions blame to South Yorkshire Police (SYP) and Sheffield Wednesday for not taking remedial action.
Here is one such section, from the summary (there is a much more detail later in the report which I have not yet read):
‘Following the delayed kick-off at the 1987 FA Cup Semi-Final and the crushing at the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final, it is evident that debriefings held by all parties were inadequate. Crucial information arising from these events was not shared within SYP, nor was it exchanged between SYP and other agencies. There is no record provided by SWFC of debriefings held between Club stewards and their managers. The Club denied knowledge of any crowd-related concerns arising from the 1987 or 1988 FA Cup Semi-Finals.’
I not sure what LFC could have done about it even if they were fully aware of the problems in 1988 (they probably weren’t.) And LFC did request the larger allocation at the Spion Kop end but this was refused.
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| Hillsborough on 22:24 - Sep 12 with 890 views | WatfordR |
| Hillsborough on 22:14 - Sep 12 by eastside_r |
Watford
The report goes into much detail of the previous incidents and it apportions blame to South Yorkshire Police (SYP) and Sheffield Wednesday for not taking remedial action.
Here is one such section, from the summary (there is a much more detail later in the report which I have not yet read):
‘Following the delayed kick-off at the 1987 FA Cup Semi-Final and the crushing at the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final, it is evident that debriefings held by all parties were inadequate. Crucial information arising from these events was not shared within SYP, nor was it exchanged between SYP and other agencies. There is no record provided by SWFC of debriefings held between Club stewards and their managers. The Club denied knowledge of any crowd-related concerns arising from the 1987 or 1988 FA Cup Semi-Finals.’
I not sure what LFC could have done about it even if they were fully aware of the problems in 1988 (they probably weren’t.) And LFC did request the larger allocation at the Spion Kop end but this was refused.
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Assuming "the Club" refers to Liverpool FC, I find it hard to believe that their fans would not have raised the crushing issue in 88 with them through official supporters club channels?
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| Hillsborough on 22:26 - Sep 12 with 885 views | eastside_r |
| Hillsborough on 22:24 - Sep 12 by WatfordR |
Assuming "the Club" refers to Liverpool FC, I find it hard to believe that their fans would not have raised the crushing issue in 88 with them through official supporters club channels?
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No 'the Club' in the report text is Sheffield Wednesday (should have qualified that.) | | | |
| Hillsborough on 22:30 - Sep 12 with 875 views | Juzzie |
The fact that so many people, myself included up until a year ago, believed the whole lies about 'thousands of ticketless fans turning up' what also concerns me is how many other things have been covered up, the public lied to etc over the last umpteen decades, or longer, by the authorities?
$hit loads I bet.
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| Hillsborough on 22:52 - Sep 12 with 833 views | eastside_r |
| Hillsborough on 16:26 - Sep 12 by loftboy |
Anyone remember west ham at home in the cup in 88, had we had fences then I'm positives there would of been casualties in the paddocks, IMHO the steel fencing was the ultimate reason most didn't survive.
Hillsborough was and still is a very sad day for football, the pub I drank in at the time raised thousands for the victims and I will always be proud of helping in that, hopefully now the truth has come out everyone can move on. |
Loftboy
Have posted this before on here but I was in the Loft that day and my big sister and several WH supporting mates were in the School End. My sister always stood at the front wherever she went supporting her club (fences or none), there were also never fences at Upton Park.
When Hillsborough happened I immediately thought what if............?
It's one of the reasons I have a particular interest in this. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 23:12 - Sep 12 with 811 views | Bushman |
Could it have been avoided if the police had been checking & allowing only ticket holders through cordons in the roads leading to the ground? |  |
| I know almost nothing about the Premier League even though I try to catch the big games every now and then at the end of the season. But I will say this, Queens Park Rangers is just a fukking sick ass team name. Just sounds so cool. |
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| Hillsborough on 23:32 - Sep 12 with 775 views | BAWHoops |
| Hillsborough on 23:12 - Sep 12 by Bushman |
Could it have been avoided if the police had been checking & allowing only ticket holders through cordons in the roads leading to the ground? |
There weren't fans without tickets. Anyone who was there was going to be there. The police absolutely ballsed it up |  |
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| Hillsborough on 23:34 - Sep 12 with 757 views | daveB |
| Hillsborough on 23:32 - Sep 12 by BAWHoops |
There weren't fans without tickets. Anyone who was there was going to be there. The police absolutely ballsed it up |
thats not really true, there was not the significant number who turned up that the police claimed and not all pissed up but there were some without tickets thats never really been in dispute | | | |
| Hillsborough on 23:37 - Sep 12 with 749 views | E17hoop |
| Hillsborough on 23:12 - Sep 12 by Bushman |
Could it have been avoided if the police had been checking & allowing only ticket holders through cordons in the roads leading to the ground? |
The intrinsic motivation for the police action that day wasn't crowd safety, but hooliganism control. As such, they wouldn't have considered that action as it may have been seen as confrontational and possibly inciteful. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 23:38 - Sep 12 with 748 views | BAWHoops |
As for the Heysel topic (don't want to annoy Clive by promoting 2 threads) the whole premise of that thread makes me sick.
Two wrongs don't make a right. It was terrible that people died at Heysel. Terrible. It was the fault of the fans and the stadium and the general policing.
Hillsborough was sold to the public as the fault of the fans when in fact they acted like any other normal football crowd. The fact it was covered up by the police, the fact that Thatcher felt the Taylor Report painted the police in a bad light, the fact that the biggest sellin newspaper in Britain ran a smear campaign against a city let alone a set of fans, is disgusting, absolutely disgusting.
If you still want to sit there and blame 'drunk and ticketless fans' then you are a dinosaur. Innocent, the fans are innocent. One of the biggest events in british football that has changed the whole experience of the sport has been sold to us as a lie. Lets hope nothing ever even comes close to something like that again.
And before you decide to get all pissy because you hate Liverpool and how succesful they were in the 80's, read this and then come back to me
http://www.football365.com/f365-features/8073452/Hillsborough [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Hillsborough on 23:45 - Sep 12 with 729 views | QPR1882 |
| Hillsborough on 23:38 - Sep 12 by BAWHoops |
As for the Heysel topic (don't want to annoy Clive by promoting 2 threads) the whole premise of that thread makes me sick.
Two wrongs don't make a right. It was terrible that people died at Heysel. Terrible. It was the fault of the fans and the stadium and the general policing.
Hillsborough was sold to the public as the fault of the fans when in fact they acted like any other normal football crowd. The fact it was covered up by the police, the fact that Thatcher felt the Taylor Report painted the police in a bad light, the fact that the biggest sellin newspaper in Britain ran a smear campaign against a city let alone a set of fans, is disgusting, absolutely disgusting.
If you still want to sit there and blame 'drunk and ticketless fans' then you are a dinosaur. Innocent, the fans are innocent. One of the biggest events in british football that has changed the whole experience of the sport has been sold to us as a lie. Lets hope nothing ever even comes close to something like that again.
And before you decide to get all pissy because you hate Liverpool and how succesful they were in the 80's, read this and then come back to me
http://www.football365.com/f365-features/8073452/Hillsborough [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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And before you decide to get all pissy because you hate Liverpool and how succesful they were in the 80's, read this and then come back to me
96 People died ffs,people on here are rightly or wrongly giving their opinons,it's got fck all about how good or bad the football team was in the 80's. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 23:55 - Sep 12 with 715 views | shrewranger |
i think it was 1967,i was 8 and my cousin was about 10, my late dad a chelsea fan took us to see them play united,best, charlton etc.we always stood in the shed,it was heaving that day,60,000 plus they reckon.it was a long time ago,but i remember it getting a bit scary.anyway to cut a long story short,all us kids were lifted up,passed over the walls and sat around the dog track to watch the game.a combination of good policing and a lack of fencing prevented a possible tragedy.unfortunately there was fencing and stupid policing at sheffield that terrible day. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 00:15 - Sep 13 with 692 views | derbyhoop |
Hillsborough was antiquated in 1989. Has is been used for a major game since?
The turnstiles did not work properly, so it took fans ages to get into the ground
The crush barriers were inadequate
The limit on each of the pens was too high
There was no stewarding/policing to prevent people getting into the 2 central pens, which were full, while the outer pens were half empty
Why did fans have to be penned in like animals
The safety concerns raised by previous incidents at the same ground had not been dealt with adequately
Previous incidents of trouble in the 70s and 80s had brought about a mind set where caging fans behind 10' barriers was considered acceptable
The same reason led to the authorities having a mindset that fans needed to be controlled rather than protected
I went to Hillsborough 6 weeks before/ early the next season (I cannot remember which) and the tunnel leading to Pen 3 was the obvious destination for fans coming through the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end.
The congestion outside was caused by a) some fans arriving late b) a few fans without tickets (a very small minority) c) the problems with the turnstiles
But, given all that, if the police had acted properly to control the fans outside; asked the authorities to delay kick off; not opened the gates 6 minutes before scheduled kick off then the crush would not have happened.
Once the crush started, why did they not recognise the dangers?
Why did they not open the gates to relieve the problem
Why did they carry on believing that a pitch invasion was more likely than a disaster
Why did they do so little to assist
Why were ambulances and paramedics not allowed to help the injured and the dying?
Why did they spend 23 years covering up their own inadequacies? |  |
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Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Hillsborough on 00:22 - Sep 13 with 687 views | Hunterhoop |
| Hillsborough on 23:34 - Sep 12 by daveB |
thats not really true, there was not the significant number who turned up that the police claimed and not all pissed up but there were some without tickets thats never really been in dispute |
But it is beyond dispute that they were a factor in the tragedy.
That's the finding of a 2yr, in depth, independent report, which covered over 400,000 pages of evidence.
Your comment is wrong. Plain and simple. The report absolutely exonerated Liverpool fans completely of playing any part in the cause of the tragedy.
The no. of ticketless fans, drunk fans, those arriving late, etc in the words of the report was no more than normal. It concluded they were not a factor.
Get a grip man. You've been fed lies. You are regurgitating them as fact. Your opinion is built on untruths. Read the report. Read quotes from it. Read summaries. Read the apologies. Read something rather than myopically continue spouting stuff that is not true to back your opinion, so, god forbid, you don't have to backtrack. In fact, just grow a pair. There's nothing wrong in being mistaken. It happens to everyone. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 00:36 - Sep 13 with 679 views | QPR1882 |
| Hillsborough on 00:22 - Sep 13 by Hunterhoop |
But it is beyond dispute that they were a factor in the tragedy.
That's the finding of a 2yr, in depth, independent report, which covered over 400,000 pages of evidence.
Your comment is wrong. Plain and simple. The report absolutely exonerated Liverpool fans completely of playing any part in the cause of the tragedy.
The no. of ticketless fans, drunk fans, those arriving late, etc in the words of the report was no more than normal. It concluded they were not a factor.
Get a grip man. You've been fed lies. You are regurgitating them as fact. Your opinion is built on untruths. Read the report. Read quotes from it. Read summaries. Read the apologies. Read something rather than myopically continue spouting stuff that is not true to back your opinion, so, god forbid, you don't have to backtrack. In fact, just grow a pair. There's nothing wrong in being mistaken. It happens to everyone. |
The no. of ticketless fans, drunk fans, those arriving late, etc in the words of the report was no more than normal. It concluded they were not a factor.
TAKEN JUST BEFORE KICK OFF OUT SIDE......IS THIS NORMAL ?
I can't recall this kind of normal crowds outside minutes before kick off and that's following QPR to Wembley 3 times in the 80's and 2 semis. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 00:57 - Sep 13 with 672 views | BAWHoops |
THEY WERE INNOCENT. DONE. CASE CLOSED.
You have no idea what time that picture was taken. Just before kick off? Really? Considering all the other lies and deceit we have been fed for 23 years how can you say for sure that picture and the time it was taken is accurate? | |
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| Hillsborough on 01:06 - Sep 13 with 663 views | QPR1882 |
| Hillsborough on 00:57 - Sep 13 by BAWHoops |
THEY WERE INNOCENT. DONE. CASE CLOSED.
You have no idea what time that picture was taken. Just before kick off? Really? Considering all the other lies and deceit we have been fed for 23 years how can you say for sure that picture and the time it was taken is accurate? |
taken from a fans account of what happened that day.
The only visible authority was half-adozen forlorn figures in blue on horseback and a few on the ground, screaming at the swaying crowd to back away from the turnstiles.
Fans, angry at the lack of movement and organisation, berated the police, some of whom were screaming into their radios for assistance. Many of us moved away from the turnstiles and looked on from a distance, convinced the kick-off would be put back while they sorted out the chaos.
Instead, at 2.52pm a huge blue exit gate opened and 2,000 of us poured in.
OJ Simpson was found 100% innocent as well.
oh well................................ [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Hillsborough on 01:30 - Sep 13 with 655 views | Cornish_oooRRRR |
'Instead, at 2.52pm a huge blue exit gate opened and 2,000 of us poured in.'
And does that make them guilty??
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| Hillsborough on 01:36 - Sep 13 with 649 views | QPR1882 |
| Hillsborough on 01:30 - Sep 13 by Cornish_oooRRRR |
'Instead, at 2.52pm a huge blue exit gate opened and 2,000 of us poured in.'
And does that make them guilty??
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As i have stated earlier on in this thread the Police,Sheff Wed and the FA are guilty of what happened that day. But i do not believe Liverpool fans were 100% innocent.
(the 2.52pm was just to answer a previous reply as how was i sure there was so many Liverpool fans out side so close to kick off.) | | | |
| Hillsborough on 04:02 - Sep 13 with 634 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Hillsborough on 01:36 - Sep 13 by QPR1882 |
As i have stated earlier on in this thread the Police,Sheff Wed and the FA are guilty of what happened that day. But i do not believe Liverpool fans were 100% innocent.
(the 2.52pm was just to answer a previous reply as how was i sure there was so many Liverpool fans out side so close to kick off.) |
If you look at the BBC slide show detailing the build up it says that the crowd was bottlenecked because of the 'antiquated turnstiles'. That reflects on the ground and the FA, not the fans.
Also, the presence of some, if any, drunk or unticketed supporters does not make the fans culpable. The police were there to manage a public situation, and unless there was an unexpectedly high number of drunk or unticketed fans, then the police should have been able to deal with it.
It is obvious that the tragedy hinged upon a sudden influx of supporters being allowed to enter via a tunnel that was not controlled and offered no feedback to the over-crowding taking place. That was culpable mismanagement.
I am ashamed of the incompetence and mendacity revealed in the report. As for some of the posts here, well, unfortunately I'm not surprised. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 07:58 - Sep 13 with 582 views | daveB |
| Hillsborough on 01:30 - Sep 13 by Cornish_oooRRRR |
'Instead, at 2.52pm a huge blue exit gate opened and 2,000 of us poured in.'
And does that make them guilty??
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no one is saying they are guilty just that it played a part in the tragedy, if it's a myth that this many people were outside the ground, late before a game trying to get in, some without tickets (possibly buying them on the day) then who were all those people outside the stadium? The police are clearly the major ones guilty in all this and deserve all the criminal prosecutions coming to them but it's pretty silly to pretend people wre not outside trying to get in | | | |
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