| Today: a bit of perspective 18:41 - Nov 7 with 11010 views | NW5Hoop |
I'm prepared to be told how wrong I am, because I've been saying this on Twitter and people have been doing so. Though I see Clive has been saying many of exactly the same things.
The first 20 minutes was good. First time I can remember applause for moves in ages. But that was it - after that, in the second half especially, we were no better than we have been for weeks, and we didn't create a single chance all game.
It's not that I expect any manager to effect a miracle in three days, but today really highlighted, for me, double standards among some of our fans. The team didn't have to play badly for Ramsey to get slated; if we won, it was despite him, if we failed to win it was because of him. His team selections, regardless of how players performed, were ripped to shreds. So, if Ramsey had announced a team with Henry at right back, with Luongo, Chery and JET all on the bench, and with Hoilett starting, he'd have had to be prepared for the crowd to turn Loftus Road into Baghdad if we didn't go four up in the first 20 minutes.
And if he'd then overseen a game in which we created no chances against a very poor team, he'd have been slaughtered. If he'd then switched to 4-4-2 for the last 20, but with a player in JET who seemed to have no idea what job he was actually meant to be doing in a 4-4-2, he'd have been slaughtered - remember Brentford?
My point is not that Warnock should be slaughtered, because he shouldn't, but that the problems in the club run a whole lot deeper than Ramsey having been running the team for 10 months.
I've had people telling me it was a distinct improvement, that we had a shape (same shape as the rest of the season, pretty much). That the defence looked sound (as it has for the last four games, by and large - you can't blame Ramsey for Onouha switching off against Brentford). That we passed well (for 20 mins, after which we started hitting the channels. In fact, I could hear Warnock shouting "Hit the long diagonals!" at one point, which doesn't sound like a man craving intricate passing).
Henry and Hoilett did both play well. But that's not the point: the point is that a lot of Rangers fans decided they were an absolute crock of it and should never be near the team. Ramsey was an idiot for even playing Henry. Yet Warnock plays Henry, out of position, and not a whisper …
You can't have it both ways. [Post edited 7 Nov 2015 18:58]
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 11:16 - Nov 8 with 2159 views | francisbowles |
Danny Simpson was a solid defender who was poor when he got forward. He was 'bombed out', amongst other reasons, because we were offered a bit of money for a player who 'is trouble' off the pitch. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 11:38 - Nov 8 with 2140 views | JonDoeman |
Today: a bit of hand-wringing! 19 up votes tho, so plenty of it about. |  |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:07 - Nov 8 with 2101 views | Neil_SI |
The easy way to analyse the performance and review what happened is this: Preston are a newly promoted side with their main striker out injured. They were able to nullify us with ease and a QPR team that was picked and packed with Premier League and Championship experience.
Our starting eleven alone had 1,314 Premier League appearances between them with Grant Hall the only player not to have featured in the top flight. So Warnock favoured experience for this one, which is a fair enough approach, but they still had no answer to Preston's defensive organisation, barely registered a shot on target, and required an excellent save from Robert Green to come away with something from the game.
By contrast, Preston's starting eleven had 78 Premier League appearances between two players across their team, with Paul Gallagher making up for 67 of them, and who I thought was the player of the match on the day.
I've no doubt that double standards are on show here. Ramsey would have come in for a lot of stick for the team selection yesterday and the substitutions made, as well as the second half performance and if viewed by the comparison I made above, probably more.
But at the same time, for the rights and wrongs of many supporters' behaviour over recent times, it's vitally important that some kind of feel good factor returns to the stands. We've got to take that opportunity and move on if we can. |  | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:15 - Nov 8 with 2090 views | stuabd |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:07 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
The easy way to analyse the performance and review what happened is this: Preston are a newly promoted side with their main striker out injured. They were able to nullify us with ease and a QPR team that was picked and packed with Premier League and Championship experience.
Our starting eleven alone had 1,314 Premier League appearances between them with Grant Hall the only player not to have featured in the top flight. So Warnock favoured experience for this one, which is a fair enough approach, but they still had no answer to Preston's defensive organisation, barely registered a shot on target, and required an excellent save from Robert Green to come away with something from the game.
By contrast, Preston's starting eleven had 78 Premier League appearances between two players across their team, with Paul Gallagher making up for 67 of them, and who I thought was the player of the match on the day.
I've no doubt that double standards are on show here. Ramsey would have come in for a lot of stick for the team selection yesterday and the substitutions made, as well as the second half performance and if viewed by the comparison I made above, probably more.
But at the same time, for the rights and wrongs of many supporters' behaviour over recent times, it's vitally important that some kind of feel good factor returns to the stands. We've got to take that opportunity and move on if we can. |
Perhaps as it was his first game in charge, people are willing to give him some time to get us playing better. It's hardly comparing like with like. One had half of last season, a summer, and 15 games this season. The other has had considerably less time. People will and should be more patient with a new caretaker manager. |  | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:17 - Nov 8 with 2088 views | Clive_Anderson |
Sick of all the self flagellation these days.
Ramsey got stick because he was useless, we're now giving Warnock the benefit of the doubt and people are complaining about it. Ridiculous. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:20 - Nov 8 with 2086 views | NW5Hoop |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:07 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
The easy way to analyse the performance and review what happened is this: Preston are a newly promoted side with their main striker out injured. They were able to nullify us with ease and a QPR team that was picked and packed with Premier League and Championship experience.
Our starting eleven alone had 1,314 Premier League appearances between them with Grant Hall the only player not to have featured in the top flight. So Warnock favoured experience for this one, which is a fair enough approach, but they still had no answer to Preston's defensive organisation, barely registered a shot on target, and required an excellent save from Robert Green to come away with something from the game.
By contrast, Preston's starting eleven had 78 Premier League appearances between two players across their team, with Paul Gallagher making up for 67 of them, and who I thought was the player of the match on the day.
I've no doubt that double standards are on show here. Ramsey would have come in for a lot of stick for the team selection yesterday and the substitutions made, as well as the second half performance and if viewed by the comparison I made above, probably more.
But at the same time, for the rights and wrongs of many supporters' behaviour over recent times, it's vitally important that some kind of feel good factor returns to the stands. We've got to take that opportunity and move on if we can. |
I agree, Neil. I just want the feelgood factor to be based on something that actually justifies feeling good, rather than some spurious claim this was in any way better.
The way to judge whether Ramsey was in fact rubbish will be at the end of the season, when we can see what whoever succeeds him has got out of the team.
I think Ramsey was desperately hamstrung by the lack of sales in the summer. Not just because it raised expectations — based on a load of players who I would imagine have even less interest in being here than they did last season - but also because it meant no funds could be freed up to buy the players for the system Ramsey clearly planned to play. He'd recruited for 4-1-3-2, but was then left without the cash to buy the young, quick centre midfielder and the lone, hold-up, first-choice striker we clearly needed. For what it's worth, I think holding out for £15m for a striker with one year left on his contract was insane. And the fact that not one club was willing to match that sum proves he was priced out of the market. It's no good saying but what about so and so - the market dictates the price, and the market said £15m was too much. Ditto pricing Phillips too expensively for West Brom. Just madness. We needed the money to give Ramsey the squad he wanted.
None of this is meant to say I thought that Ramsey was great. He wasn't. But he had a shedload of problems created for him by others, and there's too little account taken of that. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:39 - Nov 8 with 2058 views | Neil_SI |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:15 - Nov 8 by stuabd |
Perhaps as it was his first game in charge, people are willing to give him some time to get us playing better. It's hardly comparing like with like. One had half of last season, a summer, and 15 games this season. The other has had considerably less time. People will and should be more patient with a new caretaker manager. |
The bottom line is, whoever is in the job should be afforded the time and patience, with the proper backing and support from above them.
Neither one match or 15 is enough, for anybody. [Post edited 8 Nov 2015 12:39]
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:44 - Nov 8 with 2042 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:39 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
The bottom line is, whoever is in the job should be afforded the time and patience, with the proper backing and support from above them.
Neither one match or 15 is enough, for anybody. [Post edited 8 Nov 2015 12:39]
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I'll remember that next time I get the bullet on FM Neil!
Relegation or gross misconduct apart, I really don't see why the next manager shouldn't be in charge until May 2017. |  | | |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:50 - Nov 8 with 2031 views | Neil_SI |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:44 - Nov 8 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I'll remember that next time I get the bullet on FM Neil!
Relegation or gross misconduct apart, I really don't see why the next manager shouldn't be in charge until May 2017. |
Haha.  | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 13:31 - Nov 8 with 1955 views | stuabd |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 12:39 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
The bottom line is, whoever is in the job should be afforded the time and patience, with the proper backing and support from above them.
Neither one match or 15 is enough, for anybody. [Post edited 8 Nov 2015 12:39]
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I agree, but I think in most cases there needs to have been some evidence that the person in the job is capable of success. He was a poor appointment IMO and has been said on numerous occasions there wasn't much in his previous experience to show that he had the skills necessary to do the job well over time. Even during his reign, there was evidence that he was out of his depth.
Yes, we should give people time, but in my opinion that has to be someone with some kind of track record of success. You wouldn't recruit a reserve team manager from the conference and keep saying he needs more time if the evidence on show was that he wasn't a good manager.
Not sure where the 15 games comes from either. He had over 30. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 13:56 - Nov 8 with 1921 views | NW5Hoop |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 13:31 - Nov 8 by stuabd |
I agree, but I think in most cases there needs to have been some evidence that the person in the job is capable of success. He was a poor appointment IMO and has been said on numerous occasions there wasn't much in his previous experience to show that he had the skills necessary to do the job well over time. Even during his reign, there was evidence that he was out of his depth.
Yes, we should give people time, but in my opinion that has to be someone with some kind of track record of success. You wouldn't recruit a reserve team manager from the conference and keep saying he needs more time if the evidence on show was that he wasn't a good manager.
Not sure where the 15 games comes from either. He had over 30. |
It's not really fair to count last season, given the sh1tshow he walked into, none of which was his creation. In an awful season, he at least oversaw the two best performances, and his worst were no worse than Redknapp's. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:07 - Nov 8 with 1907 views | TacticalR |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 13:56 - Nov 8 by NW5Hoop |
It's not really fair to count last season, given the sh1tshow he walked into, none of which was his creation. In an awful season, he at least oversaw the two best performances, and his worst were no worse than Redknapp's. |
I agree with that. I don't think you could judge Ramsey in the Premiership, especially since no QPR manager has done well in the Premiership in the Fernandes era. |  |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:17 - Nov 8 with 1893 views | Neil_SI |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 13:31 - Nov 8 by stuabd |
I agree, but I think in most cases there needs to have been some evidence that the person in the job is capable of success. He was a poor appointment IMO and has been said on numerous occasions there wasn't much in his previous experience to show that he had the skills necessary to do the job well over time. Even during his reign, there was evidence that he was out of his depth.
Yes, we should give people time, but in my opinion that has to be someone with some kind of track record of success. You wouldn't recruit a reserve team manager from the conference and keep saying he needs more time if the evidence on show was that he wasn't a good manager.
Not sure where the 15 games comes from either. He had over 30. |
I don't place a lot of emphasis on Ramsey's period in the Premier League, that was just free experience. He picked up the pieces of a downtrodden squad, was caretaker manager himself for much of it, in a situation where he or Les Ferdinand were unable to make any changes, and with a large number of those players out of contract in the summer.
It was obvious a clear out was going to happen in the summer, so that Ramsey had the players competing well and working hard, irrespective of results or the odd bad one in dead rubber matches at the end, it reflected well on him, especially when those players could have just clocked off altogether and downed tools.
Ramsey even had the team winning matches and playing far better away from home, which if you were one of the poor souls who tends to to go most away games as well, was a real timely boost from what came before. There had been barely any decent away performances for a number of years under Mark Hughes or Harry Redknapp's reign (granted one Chelsea win aside for Harry).
Ramsey and Ferdinand started a process of setting standards, but this summer was the first one where they could actually put some of their blue print into proper action, especially with an agreed change of direction.
People under-estimate the size of the job needed at the club to turn it around properly and make that change. It's a huge job, bigger than Ramsey and bigger than most managers out there, because the changes need to come from above them for it to have any chance of working out. You need people who know what they're doing at board level, and we just don't.
So I don't really look at any of the positives or negatives from the Premier League period as anything to really judge him by now. What was important was the vision, not really the results or performances at that point. It was more about what they wanted to change and why and how they wanted to impact positively on the poor culture and malaise around the club. For me, I had hoped that would educate those above them and make them better understand the problems at QPR and how best to solve them and evolve.
Ramsey and Ferdinand made a really decent fist and start of it, but it takes time and patience, and a board that can't stop firefighting or changing its mind. They never had the time to carry out everything they wanted, and so we'll never know. It was always going to be tough in places, that's normal and expected, and sure, Ramsey could have helped himself a bit more in some places but stayed true to his own beliefs and didn't really explain those publicly well enough.
On reflection, and what some won't really understand, is Ramsey's style is more suited to the Premier League than Football League. His ideals and philosophy and way of wanting to play football suits the top flight more and that's why he probably had more notable success there. It's less kick and rush, so a more considered build up phase occurs more naturally for all sides and gives you a bit of time to develop that aspect of play.
Down here in the Championship, when his team were pressed and harried, they simply panicked and put it direct. Not really that different to a lot of sides at this level, but therefore, he never got this part going properly and people got confused thinking there was no plan and it was a hoof ball approach. It wasn't, but it takes a lot of time and patience to develop players and give them the confidence to pass and move it, and when they were jittery because of the fans' impatience, it multiplied the safety first and probability approach problem.
Ramsey will have learned a lot though. I think he'll have done enough to find himself another managerial job and I hope he gets it. I think he's a very decent man, who's conducted himself respectfully and professionally and who looked after our interests first.
It didn't work out for him, but good luck to him, I hope it does for him elsewhere. What he needs to work on is be more willing and brave to adapt and change things away from what he wants to do, if he has to. The team lacked a bruiser, someone who was going to get stuck in when the going got tough, and is what Neil Warnock has already identified as the source of the problem.
Secondly — he needs to work on how he PRs himself and the message he gets across in press conferences. Warnock, despite the performance yesterday, utilised all his experience in his interviews and has remained upbeat and bubbly. That rubs off and reflects well for everybody. He's trying to re-assure and raise spirits, and he does that really well. But that's someone who has managed well over 1,000 games too. :)
Regarding track record and success. Warnock has a proven track record, but someone gave him the opportunity and time to develop. Everybody needs a chance and some time to show what they can do, as otherwise nobody will ever get a chance.
With a lot of rebuilding and foundations needing to be laid here, it's actually something a lot of managers with a proven track record can't be arsed dealing with — they have to get first team results and so you end up going around in a cycle, without building up any consistency.
I said to Clive yesterday in the pub, when was the last time we had a manager pinched from us for doing a good job? It's barely within my lifetime, Jim Smith to Newcastle, when I was just a boy and some would add Gerry Francis to Spurs into the mix as well. That says something really. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:30 - Nov 8 with 1871 views | stuabd |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:17 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
I don't place a lot of emphasis on Ramsey's period in the Premier League, that was just free experience. He picked up the pieces of a downtrodden squad, was caretaker manager himself for much of it, in a situation where he or Les Ferdinand were unable to make any changes, and with a large number of those players out of contract in the summer.
It was obvious a clear out was going to happen in the summer, so that Ramsey had the players competing well and working hard, irrespective of results or the odd bad one in dead rubber matches at the end, it reflected well on him, especially when those players could have just clocked off altogether and downed tools.
Ramsey even had the team winning matches and playing far better away from home, which if you were one of the poor souls who tends to to go most away games as well, was a real timely boost from what came before. There had been barely any decent away performances for a number of years under Mark Hughes or Harry Redknapp's reign (granted one Chelsea win aside for Harry).
Ramsey and Ferdinand started a process of setting standards, but this summer was the first one where they could actually put some of their blue print into proper action, especially with an agreed change of direction.
People under-estimate the size of the job needed at the club to turn it around properly and make that change. It's a huge job, bigger than Ramsey and bigger than most managers out there, because the changes need to come from above them for it to have any chance of working out. You need people who know what they're doing at board level, and we just don't.
So I don't really look at any of the positives or negatives from the Premier League period as anything to really judge him by now. What was important was the vision, not really the results or performances at that point. It was more about what they wanted to change and why and how they wanted to impact positively on the poor culture and malaise around the club. For me, I had hoped that would educate those above them and make them better understand the problems at QPR and how best to solve them and evolve.
Ramsey and Ferdinand made a really decent fist and start of it, but it takes time and patience, and a board that can't stop firefighting or changing its mind. They never had the time to carry out everything they wanted, and so we'll never know. It was always going to be tough in places, that's normal and expected, and sure, Ramsey could have helped himself a bit more in some places but stayed true to his own beliefs and didn't really explain those publicly well enough.
On reflection, and what some won't really understand, is Ramsey's style is more suited to the Premier League than Football League. His ideals and philosophy and way of wanting to play football suits the top flight more and that's why he probably had more notable success there. It's less kick and rush, so a more considered build up phase occurs more naturally for all sides and gives you a bit of time to develop that aspect of play.
Down here in the Championship, when his team were pressed and harried, they simply panicked and put it direct. Not really that different to a lot of sides at this level, but therefore, he never got this part going properly and people got confused thinking there was no plan and it was a hoof ball approach. It wasn't, but it takes a lot of time and patience to develop players and give them the confidence to pass and move it, and when they were jittery because of the fans' impatience, it multiplied the safety first and probability approach problem.
Ramsey will have learned a lot though. I think he'll have done enough to find himself another managerial job and I hope he gets it. I think he's a very decent man, who's conducted himself respectfully and professionally and who looked after our interests first.
It didn't work out for him, but good luck to him, I hope it does for him elsewhere. What he needs to work on is be more willing and brave to adapt and change things away from what he wants to do, if he has to. The team lacked a bruiser, someone who was going to get stuck in when the going got tough, and is what Neil Warnock has already identified as the source of the problem.
Secondly — he needs to work on how he PRs himself and the message he gets across in press conferences. Warnock, despite the performance yesterday, utilised all his experience in his interviews and has remained upbeat and bubbly. That rubs off and reflects well for everybody. He's trying to re-assure and raise spirits, and he does that really well. But that's someone who has managed well over 1,000 games too. :)
Regarding track record and success. Warnock has a proven track record, but someone gave him the opportunity and time to develop. Everybody needs a chance and some time to show what they can do, as otherwise nobody will ever get a chance.
With a lot of rebuilding and foundations needing to be laid here, it's actually something a lot of managers with a proven track record can't be arsed dealing with — they have to get first team results and so you end up going around in a cycle, without building up any consistency.
I said to Clive yesterday in the pub, when was the last time we had a manager pinched from us for doing a good job? It's barely within my lifetime, Jim Smith to Newcastle, when I was just a boy and some would add Gerry Francis to Spurs into the mix as well. That says something really. |
Good points as usual.
I would say that the reason NW got a chance was that he obviously wanted to manage and went down the leagues to gain experience. An apprenticeship of sorts. What I never understood about Ramsey was that with his experience as a coach in the Prem he surely could have got a job in the lower leagues. That is if he really wanted to be a manager. He could have honed his skills in the lower leagues and maybe improved as a manager. He didn't and the QPR job was too much for him.
As Ted H has said on here, we're not a training program for would-be managers.
Most decent managers have served as number twos or worked in the lower leagues. Not all, but it certainly helps.
Neil Warnock has worked all over the place and took the chances he was given. Had he started off in the premiership then I imagine he would have struggled just as Ramsey did.
Many fans were patient with Ramsey but lost faith because the bloke never had the kind of validity that other managers in the game have. Maybe they should have believed in him more and trusted him, but for me, he was doing a job that required more experience and expertise. It showed. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:46 - Nov 8 with 1840 views | Dorse |
'All around me are familiar faces, worn out places, worn out faces...' |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:48 - Nov 8 with 1621 views | batmanhoop |
you can't possibly slag off a manager in his first game. When I saw the team I also scratched my head, but as it turned out, Hoilett and Henry were two of our better players yesterday. Time to accept we are not going up and a mid table place will have to suffice. Whether you feel Ramsey was hard done by is another matter. That performance against Foolham will take a long time to forget and it was never going to get better with him at the helm | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 15:07 - Nov 8 with 1598 views | Neil_SI |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:30 - Nov 8 by stuabd |
Good points as usual.
I would say that the reason NW got a chance was that he obviously wanted to manage and went down the leagues to gain experience. An apprenticeship of sorts. What I never understood about Ramsey was that with his experience as a coach in the Prem he surely could have got a job in the lower leagues. That is if he really wanted to be a manager. He could have honed his skills in the lower leagues and maybe improved as a manager. He didn't and the QPR job was too much for him.
As Ted H has said on here, we're not a training program for would-be managers.
Most decent managers have served as number twos or worked in the lower leagues. Not all, but it certainly helps.
Neil Warnock has worked all over the place and took the chances he was given. Had he started off in the premiership then I imagine he would have struggled just as Ramsey did.
Many fans were patient with Ramsey but lost faith because the bloke never had the kind of validity that other managers in the game have. Maybe they should have believed in him more and trusted him, but for me, he was doing a job that required more experience and expertise. It showed. |
Yeah maybe, I haven't a clue why Ramsey's career has panned out the way it has, but he does have more experience than people give him credit for and there may be some method to it as well. He was a player-coach out in Malta, spent a few years with success managing in America and also managed England U20s for a couple of years. He coached at Luton and then obviously spent 10 years developing players at Spurs, which I'm sure was a good role too.
Perhaps he shouldn't have stayed there for as long as he did if he wanted to become a manager sooner, however, what a lot of people don't realise if for a lot of those years, the reserve and academy level football in this country was seen as a higher standard than the Football League. Maybe he felt it was better to work with that calibre of player and that would be more beneficial for him, hard to say really. But he is obviously well regarded for helping develop talent.
I understand the point of view about QPR not being a training programme for would-be managers, but you have to earn the right to be an attractive proposition to the best managers out there, and make sure that coming to QPR is because you feel you can progress and better them at the same time, and it isn't just about being paid millions of pounds and being given millions to spend on players.
It's always about opportunity.
Ramsey is 53 years old, he doesn't really have the time to do a long apprenticeship and there's something to be said about the fact that he has done his stripes to earn that opportunity. He's put over 20 years plus into the game and has a wealth of coaching experience, unrivalled by many out there.
Compare that say to someone like Teddy Sheringham, who's just jumped in the deep end with Stevenage and has very little coaching experience (a short period at West Ham and only decided to start his coaching badges in 2013) and spent much of his last years playing poker professionally rather than coaching and has still wound up with a managers job. He too feels he can't afford to take a long apprenticeship to build himself up, because of his age.
Shaun Derry has been touted for the role here by some, who had a short spell as manager of Notts County. He has barely any coaching experience in comparison and even less managerial experience overall than Ramsey and Derry doesn't yet hold a Pro coaching license. But should he be allowed an opportunity here or elsewhere?
If every club didn't give these people a chance and opportunity then they wouldn't be able to get a job anywhere. In fact, it's what most of them still complain about in the modern day and say the same names do the rounds on the circuit and some of them are not qualified enough or haven't earned their stripes but are there on name or because of the way the football inner circle works.
But even when some are given a chance, as shown above, it's often because of some sentimental reason or a past reputation that doesn't relate to the job. The interview in another thread on here with Sir Alex Ferguson proves that, he prepared to stay in the game, and started his coaching badges and education long before his playing career ended.
It's always hard to know what you need and not always clear cut, but the job at QPR is only doable for whatever the experience level of the manager with the right intention and direction from the board, without that, no amount of experience, reputation or quality is going to survive and that's been proved with the likes of Mark Hughes and Harry Redknapp failing so miserably here. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 15:29 - Nov 8 with 1565 views | PlanetHonneywood |
I am just trying to think of another industry, where a top 20-30 company with some serious operating difficulties, would appoint a total novice to such a key position as chief operations officer. I can't, and the reason why, they wouldn't be so stupid!
Someone above said there isn't an apprenticeship for managers. I disagree, currently JFH and Sherringham, are starting their managerial careers lower down the leagues and learning the ropes.
On three occasions, we've appointed first time managers, and they have been unsuccessful to varying degrees: Trevor Francis, Ray Wilkins and Chris Ramsey. Maybe we should accept that the practice doesn't work for us. Ramsey's experience was always going to be a huge hurdle to overcome, but with the management skills of those above him, it was almost inevitable he would falter.
If we really are in a 'consolidation' period, then we need to get the next man in asap, so that he can work out what he needs from the current squad and try get rid of what he does not want and, probably of more importance, we can get the necessary structures set up and running.
Maybe NW's contribution would be to advise the owners about suitable characters to match what they want and his experience of knowing what its like to manage QPR, to arrive at someone with experience, evidence of ability and looking to move their career on.
After several years of poor decisions around the first team manager, the club desperately needs to get it right this time! |  |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 15:34 - Nov 8 with 1560 views | JonDoeman |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:07 - Nov 8 by TacticalR |
I agree with that. I don't think you could judge Ramsey in the Premiership, especially since no QPR manager has done well in the Premiership in the Fernandes era. |
In hindsight, Warnock was doing well, & Hughes did keep us up.
I don't give Ramsey a free pass for last season, it'll be interesting to see how he gets on in his next managerial job ! ;) | |
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| Today: a bit of perspective on 15:41 - Nov 8 with 1553 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 15:34 - Nov 8 by JonDoeman |
In hindsight, Warnock was doing well, & Hughes did keep us up.
I don't give Ramsey a free pass for last season, it'll be interesting to see how he gets on in his next managerial job ! ;) |
I'd argue that Jonathan Walters kept us up.... | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 16:34 - Nov 8 with 1504 views | stevec |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 14:17 - Nov 8 by Neil_SI |
I don't place a lot of emphasis on Ramsey's period in the Premier League, that was just free experience. He picked up the pieces of a downtrodden squad, was caretaker manager himself for much of it, in a situation where he or Les Ferdinand were unable to make any changes, and with a large number of those players out of contract in the summer.
It was obvious a clear out was going to happen in the summer, so that Ramsey had the players competing well and working hard, irrespective of results or the odd bad one in dead rubber matches at the end, it reflected well on him, especially when those players could have just clocked off altogether and downed tools.
Ramsey even had the team winning matches and playing far better away from home, which if you were one of the poor souls who tends to to go most away games as well, was a real timely boost from what came before. There had been barely any decent away performances for a number of years under Mark Hughes or Harry Redknapp's reign (granted one Chelsea win aside for Harry).
Ramsey and Ferdinand started a process of setting standards, but this summer was the first one where they could actually put some of their blue print into proper action, especially with an agreed change of direction.
People under-estimate the size of the job needed at the club to turn it around properly and make that change. It's a huge job, bigger than Ramsey and bigger than most managers out there, because the changes need to come from above them for it to have any chance of working out. You need people who know what they're doing at board level, and we just don't.
So I don't really look at any of the positives or negatives from the Premier League period as anything to really judge him by now. What was important was the vision, not really the results or performances at that point. It was more about what they wanted to change and why and how they wanted to impact positively on the poor culture and malaise around the club. For me, I had hoped that would educate those above them and make them better understand the problems at QPR and how best to solve them and evolve.
Ramsey and Ferdinand made a really decent fist and start of it, but it takes time and patience, and a board that can't stop firefighting or changing its mind. They never had the time to carry out everything they wanted, and so we'll never know. It was always going to be tough in places, that's normal and expected, and sure, Ramsey could have helped himself a bit more in some places but stayed true to his own beliefs and didn't really explain those publicly well enough.
On reflection, and what some won't really understand, is Ramsey's style is more suited to the Premier League than Football League. His ideals and philosophy and way of wanting to play football suits the top flight more and that's why he probably had more notable success there. It's less kick and rush, so a more considered build up phase occurs more naturally for all sides and gives you a bit of time to develop that aspect of play.
Down here in the Championship, when his team were pressed and harried, they simply panicked and put it direct. Not really that different to a lot of sides at this level, but therefore, he never got this part going properly and people got confused thinking there was no plan and it was a hoof ball approach. It wasn't, but it takes a lot of time and patience to develop players and give them the confidence to pass and move it, and when they were jittery because of the fans' impatience, it multiplied the safety first and probability approach problem.
Ramsey will have learned a lot though. I think he'll have done enough to find himself another managerial job and I hope he gets it. I think he's a very decent man, who's conducted himself respectfully and professionally and who looked after our interests first.
It didn't work out for him, but good luck to him, I hope it does for him elsewhere. What he needs to work on is be more willing and brave to adapt and change things away from what he wants to do, if he has to. The team lacked a bruiser, someone who was going to get stuck in when the going got tough, and is what Neil Warnock has already identified as the source of the problem.
Secondly — he needs to work on how he PRs himself and the message he gets across in press conferences. Warnock, despite the performance yesterday, utilised all his experience in his interviews and has remained upbeat and bubbly. That rubs off and reflects well for everybody. He's trying to re-assure and raise spirits, and he does that really well. But that's someone who has managed well over 1,000 games too. :)
Regarding track record and success. Warnock has a proven track record, but someone gave him the opportunity and time to develop. Everybody needs a chance and some time to show what they can do, as otherwise nobody will ever get a chance.
With a lot of rebuilding and foundations needing to be laid here, it's actually something a lot of managers with a proven track record can't be arsed dealing with — they have to get first team results and so you end up going around in a cycle, without building up any consistency.
I said to Clive yesterday in the pub, when was the last time we had a manager pinched from us for doing a good job? It's barely within my lifetime, Jim Smith to Newcastle, when I was just a boy and some would add Gerry Francis to Spurs into the mix as well. That says something really. |
Interesting stuff but you have to understand that all mere mortals like myself had to go on was the pile of shit Ramsey presented us with out on the pitch. |  | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 16:46 - Nov 8 with 1496 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 16:34 - Nov 8 by stevec |
Interesting stuff but you have to understand that all mere mortals like myself had to go on was the pile of shit Ramsey presented us with out on the pitch. |
Really? Pile of shit? | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 16:54 - Nov 8 with 1490 views | richpr |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 10:18 - Nov 8 by daveB |
If Ramsey had picked that team it would have been meltdown, if we had played like that under Ramsey again meltdown.
We were absolutely crap yesterday, created nothing all game and were lucky not to get beat as Greens saved looked over the line to me. Our tactic was Onouha runs forward with the ball and pumps it out for a throw in. People actually clapped them off at the end, that was in the top five of worst football matches i have ever seen. |
1st 30 minutes we played much better than we have all season. We actually used the midfield to pass it around + we played in on the ground. I admit that we couldn't keep it up in the 2nd half - mainly for 2 reasons a) Faurlin cant do 90 minutes any more b) they pushed right up on our midfield to stop them. Sorry Dave but most do actually prefer watching them try and playing a bit of football to that absolute long ball cr*p we played under Ramsey | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 18:03 - Nov 8 with 1427 views | NW5Hoop |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 16:54 - Nov 8 by richpr |
1st 30 minutes we played much better than we have all season. We actually used the midfield to pass it around + we played in on the ground. I admit that we couldn't keep it up in the 2nd half - mainly for 2 reasons a) Faurlin cant do 90 minutes any more b) they pushed right up on our midfield to stop them. Sorry Dave but most do actually prefer watching them try and playing a bit of football to that absolute long ball cr*p we played under Ramsey |
It was the first 20 as far as I could see.
It's rather forgotten that QPR actually provided quite a lot of decent entertainment through August and September, when we were scoring threes and fours. But let's all pretend that didn't happen. | | | |
| Today: a bit of perspective on 19:19 - Nov 8 with 1365 views | derbyhoop |
We played the 5 PL quality players we thought were going. And, against a side who only managed to get promoted from L1 via the playoffs we managed one feeble shot on target.
Best squad in the Championship? Maybe if you're only looking at the 4 London clubs. And I wouldn't be certain then.
That's perspective. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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