| VAR - Thread number 6598 20:49 - Jan 16 with 3087 views | aston_hoop |
So VAR, anyone watching the Southampton v Derby game let me know exactly what that was all about? A marginal decision that people still aren't sure about, all the drama of a football match removed and a goal disallowed. Thats just not entertainment is it? |  |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 16:59 - Jan 17 with 1091 views | Dixie_CT |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 09:54 - Jan 17 by PinnerPaul |
My final thought, and I've said this before
They are using the most up to date technology, the VARs are the top referees - same as on field ones - so for those thinking that the 'process' is somehow going to improve are sadly mistaken.
I also have it on very good authority that next season PL referees will NOT be using a pitchside monitor, so therefore will take VAR's recommendation most of the time. |
Surely trial and error, more sense as to how the laws are interpreted and pure familiarisation with the process will improve VAR?
I felt that the world cup was improved by it. They did have the monitors which meant the on pitch referee was doing something active rather just standing with his finger in ear looking a bit clueless. Even in Rugby the on pitch official talks to the Video ref and walks him through his thought process as to why and what he wants reviewed.
Go and talk to the lino to confirm review first? Its so sloppy shoulders. Own the bloody decision and don't give away your authority to a control room who also have no feel for the situation I.e. players/fans reactions.
Surely this isn't rocket science? Woe is the referee but they aren't volunteers or coerced into being there. [Post edited 17 Jan 2019 17:00]
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:38 - Jan 17 with 1060 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 12:55 - Jan 17 by FrankRightguard |
What is the reason for not using the pitchside monitors? I thought the reason it worked far better at the World Cup was because the referee was still the referee. This seems to me like refereeing by committee. The on field ref should make all final decisions, not some fella on an industrial estate in Uxbridge. |
Because the VAR is a referee on the same level as the on pitch one I guess and thinking about it there is nothing to be gained and even more time to be 'lost' by going over to the pitchside monitor.
Technically the on field ref IS making all the decisions, just some are after being 'advised' by the VAR.
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:44 - Jan 17 with 1055 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 13:06 - Jan 17 by Watford_Ranger |
What’s your (or refs’ generally) view on a time limit? That’s the real bugbear for me. |
My view (as above) is there is no way to make the decisions quicker as they are already using the 'best' technology and referees.
To the poster above castigating UK referees - these problems have come up in all the countries it has been used - there are plenty of examples on line.
Not having a go but you do reap what you sow - look at the messages on here when a mistake is made by a referee - football - fans/managers etc - just won't accept that mistakes happen and, as we've seen mistakes will STILL happen with VAR - football is chasing the impossible - a perfectly refereed match. | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 18:56 - Jan 17 with 1025 views | terryb |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:44 - Jan 17 by PinnerPaul |
My view (as above) is there is no way to make the decisions quicker as they are already using the 'best' technology and referees.
To the poster above castigating UK referees - these problems have come up in all the countries it has been used - there are plenty of examples on line.
Not having a go but you do reap what you sow - look at the messages on here when a mistake is made by a referee - football - fans/managers etc - just won't accept that mistakes happen and, as we've seen mistakes will STILL happen with VAR - football is chasing the impossible - a perfectly refereed match. |
If that was me you were referring to Pinner, I wasn't sugesting that the rest of the world is better at VAR interpretation.
It is more to do with the referees management insisting that we should use VAR differently to the rest of the world. This comes across as arrorgance & telling the world that they regard themselves as better. All this at a time when, IMO, the standard of top level refereeing in this country is the worst it has been in my lifetime.
I do believe that our professional officals are of a poor quality, but a lot of that may be due to the guidelines laid down by their bosses. The leadership of the PGMOL seems to be above criticism & expects it's officials to follow their dictates, whether they are sensible or not. I can't remember the name of their leader, but I recall that as a match official I always felt he was a long way short of the standard of our top refs.
My current bugbare is that a lot of goal kicks are being retaken because an attacker moves into the area before the ball leaves the area, even though the attacker is nowhere near the defender receiving the ball. I know this is correct by the laws of the game, but the retake is not usually needed & uses up another 30 seconds playing time. The advantage law could still be applied.
It can't be coincidence that this is at the fore at present & nust have come as a directive from above.
I very much doubt if referees at a lower level follow this law unless an advantage has been gained. And that is how it should be! [Post edited 17 Jan 2019 19:10]
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 20:37 - Jan 17 with 1007 views | Watford_Ranger |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:44 - Jan 17 by PinnerPaul |
My view (as above) is there is no way to make the decisions quicker as they are already using the 'best' technology and referees.
To the poster above castigating UK referees - these problems have come up in all the countries it has been used - there are plenty of examples on line.
Not having a go but you do reap what you sow - look at the messages on here when a mistake is made by a referee - football - fans/managers etc - just won't accept that mistakes happen and, as we've seen mistakes will STILL happen with VAR - football is chasing the impossible - a perfectly refereed match. |
Fair enough. If that’s the case then I’d rather they didn’t have it at all but I was erring towards that anyway. Anything obvious should be identifiable quickly and if the tech isn’t up to scratch they should wait until it is. | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:03 - Jan 17 with 990 views | daveB |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:44 - Jan 17 by PinnerPaul |
My view (as above) is there is no way to make the decisions quicker as they are already using the 'best' technology and referees.
To the poster above castigating UK referees - these problems have come up in all the countries it has been used - there are plenty of examples on line.
Not having a go but you do reap what you sow - look at the messages on here when a mistake is made by a referee - football - fans/managers etc - just won't accept that mistakes happen and, as we've seen mistakes will STILL happen with VAR - football is chasing the impossible - a perfectly refereed match. |
I'm still of the mind this should be trialled and modified as it goes, it's far from perfect and I do think it could be far better than it currently is but if we don't try it we'll never know.
I thought it worked well at the World Cup but i've yet to see a game in England where it hasn't become a farce when used and our own refs haven't helped with that. |  | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:04 - Jan 18 with 894 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 16:59 - Jan 17 by Dixie_CT |
Surely trial and error, more sense as to how the laws are interpreted and pure familiarisation with the process will improve VAR?
I felt that the world cup was improved by it. They did have the monitors which meant the on pitch referee was doing something active rather just standing with his finger in ear looking a bit clueless. Even in Rugby the on pitch official talks to the Video ref and walks him through his thought process as to why and what he wants reviewed.
Go and talk to the lino to confirm review first? Its so sloppy shoulders. Own the bloody decision and don't give away your authority to a control room who also have no feel for the situation I.e. players/fans reactions.
Surely this isn't rocket science? Woe is the referee but they aren't volunteers or coerced into being there. [Post edited 17 Jan 2019 17:00]
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'more sense as to the laws are interpreted'???????
They are using the 'elite' referees as VARs - that ain't going to improve/change! | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:06 - Jan 18 with 889 views | LongsufferingR |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:03 - Jan 17 by daveB |
I'm still of the mind this should be trialled and modified as it goes, it's far from perfect and I do think it could be far better than it currently is but if we don't try it we'll never know.
I thought it worked well at the World Cup but i've yet to see a game in England where it hasn't become a farce when used and our own refs haven't helped with that. |
If you think it worked well in the World Cup, I presume you didn't watch Portugal v Iran. |  | | |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:09 - Jan 18 with 889 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 18:56 - Jan 17 by terryb |
If that was me you were referring to Pinner, I wasn't sugesting that the rest of the world is better at VAR interpretation.
It is more to do with the referees management insisting that we should use VAR differently to the rest of the world. This comes across as arrorgance & telling the world that they regard themselves as better. All this at a time when, IMO, the standard of top level refereeing in this country is the worst it has been in my lifetime.
I do believe that our professional officals are of a poor quality, but a lot of that may be due to the guidelines laid down by their bosses. The leadership of the PGMOL seems to be above criticism & expects it's officials to follow their dictates, whether they are sensible or not. I can't remember the name of their leader, but I recall that as a match official I always felt he was a long way short of the standard of our top refs.
My current bugbare is that a lot of goal kicks are being retaken because an attacker moves into the area before the ball leaves the area, even though the attacker is nowhere near the defender receiving the ball. I know this is correct by the laws of the game, but the retake is not usually needed & uses up another 30 seconds playing time. The advantage law could still be applied.
It can't be coincidence that this is at the fore at present & nust have come as a directive from above.
I very much doubt if referees at a lower level follow this law unless an advantage has been gained. And that is how it should be! [Post edited 17 Jan 2019 19:10]
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Hello Terry,
As far as the use of VAR is concerned, I'm thinking/guessing that the reluctance to use the pitch side monitor is for 2 reasons
1) It takes up even more time
2) If a fellow ref (same level as you) is telling you something, from his perceived 'better' position (ie with TV pictures) then I think most refs would go with that decision
3)Goal kicks - IFAB are looking at changing law next season so that GKs and FKs do not have to leave the box before being touched again- so the attacker thing may go away.
I would certainly play on if attacker gains no advantage by 'using the penalty area', but if he uses it to his advantage - ie he can challenge defender by entering the PA , then can see why play is brought back. | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:11 - Jan 18 with 885 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:03 - Jan 17 by daveB |
I'm still of the mind this should be trialled and modified as it goes, it's far from perfect and I do think it could be far better than it currently is but if we don't try it we'll never know.
I thought it worked well at the World Cup but i've yet to see a game in England where it hasn't become a farce when used and our own refs haven't helped with that. |
Sorry to labour the point Dave but how is it going to get 'better'? | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:23 - Jan 18 with 867 views | daveB |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:11 - Jan 18 by PinnerPaul |
Sorry to labour the point Dave but how is it going to get 'better'? |
Well I've only seen about 4 games in this country using VAR plus the World Cup so probably not the best person to ask but from what I have seen I'd change it so either a video analyst or a coach representing your team is in the stand and can make 3 appeals per match, they can be wasted checking every goal or held back for penalty appeals, red cards etc. They would have 5 seconds to lodge the appeal and the ref gets a signal on his watch to stop play. You then stop the game check it and ensure the people in the stadium know what the appeal is and after decision is made you re start the game.
VAR refs then have 30 seconds to make a decision, if they can't agree in that time you stick with the on field decision.
That limits the stoppage per games to a maximum of 6 and the time each decision takes. They'd argue that is not enough time but tough, it's more than the on field ref gets
Downside would be a last minute winner if you have an appeal left you are bound to appeal that just in case and ruin spontaneous celebrations but that can be fixed if the appeal is seen as frivolous then you lose an appeal for the next game.
As I say VAR can work, it won't in the current form though | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:35 - Jan 18 with 860 views | Dixie_CT |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:04 - Jan 18 by PinnerPaul |
'more sense as to the laws are interpreted'???????
They are using the 'elite' referees as VARs - that ain't going to improve/change! |
If the 'elite' refs can't look at thst 'offside' goal in the Saints/Derby game and think about how they are applying the laws then we are doomed.
I'm more optimistic and think that they will learn by process of practice but there should be more humility all round and accept mistakes happen, alright some
will cost some clubs cash but no one is being murdered. [Post edited 19 Jan 2019 11:47]
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:36 - Jan 18 with 860 views | PinnerPaul |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:23 - Jan 18 by daveB |
Well I've only seen about 4 games in this country using VAR plus the World Cup so probably not the best person to ask but from what I have seen I'd change it so either a video analyst or a coach representing your team is in the stand and can make 3 appeals per match, they can be wasted checking every goal or held back for penalty appeals, red cards etc. They would have 5 seconds to lodge the appeal and the ref gets a signal on his watch to stop play. You then stop the game check it and ensure the people in the stadium know what the appeal is and after decision is made you re start the game.
VAR refs then have 30 seconds to make a decision, if they can't agree in that time you stick with the on field decision.
That limits the stoppage per games to a maximum of 6 and the time each decision takes. They'd argue that is not enough time but tough, it's more than the on field ref gets
Downside would be a last minute winner if you have an appeal left you are bound to appeal that just in case and ruin spontaneous celebrations but that can be fixed if the appeal is seen as frivolous then you lose an appeal for the next game.
As I say VAR can work, it won't in the current form though |
Fair enough Dave - at least you have come up with a practical alternative.
For me, if REALLY kept to clear and obvious, then most of the delays go away.
Any decisions where 50% of people think one thing and 50% another, even WITH the video is not 'clear and obvious' | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:48 - Jan 18 with 850 views | LongsufferingR |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:23 - Jan 18 by daveB |
Well I've only seen about 4 games in this country using VAR plus the World Cup so probably not the best person to ask but from what I have seen I'd change it so either a video analyst or a coach representing your team is in the stand and can make 3 appeals per match, they can be wasted checking every goal or held back for penalty appeals, red cards etc. They would have 5 seconds to lodge the appeal and the ref gets a signal on his watch to stop play. You then stop the game check it and ensure the people in the stadium know what the appeal is and after decision is made you re start the game.
VAR refs then have 30 seconds to make a decision, if they can't agree in that time you stick with the on field decision.
That limits the stoppage per games to a maximum of 6 and the time each decision takes. They'd argue that is not enough time but tough, it's more than the on field ref gets
Downside would be a last minute winner if you have an appeal left you are bound to appeal that just in case and ruin spontaneous celebrations but that can be fixed if the appeal is seen as frivolous then you lose an appeal for the next game.
As I say VAR can work, it won't in the current form though |
...and what if in those 5 seconds a goal is scored or somebody breaks an opponent's leg? Entirely unworkable. Too many needless stoppages. | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 16:02 - Jan 18 with 829 views | daveB |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:48 - Jan 18 by LongsufferingR |
...and what if in those 5 seconds a goal is scored or somebody breaks an opponent's leg? Entirely unworkable. Too many needless stoppages. |
If a goal is scored then whatever the appeal was for is looked at but in the main an appeal would be for a goal, penalty, red card so the game would be stopped anyway. By limiting number of appeals clubs would be less likely to appeal for anything on the off chance.
Would also take the pressure off refs to go and check everything for VAR which they seem to be doing at the moment
Game is already full of needless stoppages with players arguing every decision | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 16:04 - Jan 18 with 828 views | daveB |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:36 - Jan 18 by PinnerPaul |
Fair enough Dave - at least you have come up with a practical alternative.
For me, if REALLY kept to clear and obvious, then most of the delays go away.
Any decisions where 50% of people think one thing and 50% another, even WITH the video is not 'clear and obvious' |
problem is one person would say something was clear and obvious and another would say it wasn't. I just think give each team a limited number of appeals similar to cricket and a time limit to do it in and a lot of the problems would be solved | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 17:35 - Jan 18 with 789 views | Miss_Terraces |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 09:51 - Jan 17 by PinnerPaul |
Will cause just as many arguments as the good old ref, with the added bonus of a great big delay on top.
The official guidelines for referees using VAR runs to, wait for it...……….64 pages.
That's how simple it is!
Lineker annoyed me last night, nodding in agreement with Shearer, when he has spent the last year quoting 'VAR' on MOTD whenever he thinks a referee has got something wrong. |
Growing up Gary was my hero, how many times did he save us?
The faces he used to pull when he scored. I don't think for one second, he would have been happy to wait 5 minutes, to celebrate a goal.
I don't believe a word he says, that hurts! | |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 19:26 - Jan 18 with 759 views | daveB |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:06 - Jan 18 by LongsufferingR |
If you think it worked well in the World Cup, I presume you didn't watch Portugal v Iran. |
I should say I didn't think it was perfect, that game is an example of when it goes wrong it's a farce but on the whole it was better than i expected | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 15:53 - Jan 20 with 650 views | Miss_Terraces |
Questions for Pinner
How expensive is VAR?
Who pays for it?
Any plans to have it in the lower leagues
Many thanks | |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:54 - Mar 6 with 538 views | aston_hoop |
So, the Utd penalty decision tonight anyone? | |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 22:23 - Mar 6 with 482 views | Watford_Ranger |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:54 - Mar 6 by aston_hoop |
So, the Utd penalty decision tonight anyone? |
Mental. This will kill the sport.
I’m still of the opinion that if the ref can’t overrule it in 30 secs that should be it but it will still suck the fun out of scoring goals. | | | |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 22:48 - Mar 6 with 431 views | Boston |
| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 21:54 - Mar 6 by aston_hoop |
So, the Utd penalty decision tonight anyone? |
Proves that the Man Utd floating penalty card has gone global. | |
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| VAR - Thread number 6598 on 23:24 - Mar 6 with 398 views | digswellhoop |
If you have var ,then qe dont need referees or lines people
for over 109 years 3 men were in control THATS HOW IT SHOULD STAY .GET RID OF VAR WILL ONLY RUIN OUR GAME | | | |
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