| Is anyone else starting to think 18:57 - Aug 10 with 4441 views | bosh67 |
that there is some kind of conspiracy going on around other clubs coming in for our players? It's almost as if they either want to come in with a bid to steal them or just let them play until they are out of contract and get them for nothing.
West Ham are a case in point. Allegedly don't want to bid much for Eze but want their money back and more for Hugill.
Just feels like we come in for special treatment in the transfer market. Just starve players out of us and then set stupid fees to get them in.
Anyone else starting to get this feeling? |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 14:23 - Aug 11 with 1221 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 12:14 - Aug 11 by essextaxiboy |
But if nobody went to the restaurant because it was too expensive, then they would lower the price until they reached one that was acceptable to the buyers. That is how a free market drives down prices . The buyer sets the price in the end . |
Not sure what College of Economics you went to - what is some kind of kindergarten?
'Market value' is self-evidently a much more complex matter than some kind of imposition of buyer preferences. If we compare the football market with that of second-hand cars, a variety of factors in assessing the merchandise will clearly affect the price: speed, condition, reliability, performance and so on all play their part. The market adjusts itself for the most part to stabilise value on a comparative basis, so that, for example, a 10 year old Volvo will have a list price, just as a Championship defender, say, in his early 30s will have his 'ballpark' fee. It's a bit less rigorous in the money-mad football world, of course, to say the least, but it's ludicrous to suggest every transaction is unique and just depends on what the likes of Palace thinks our player is worth to them (which will obviously be taking the piss, at least to start with).
To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association. If, for every job I went after, I just allowed myselto be dragged down lower and lower to whatever a given client might tell me s/he things editors are worth (weirdly, sometimes much less than other manual trades), that'd be (a) a depressing race 'to the bottom' on my side and (b) wouldn't necessarily even get me the job anyway, as some people prefer to pay a little more for higher quality. On top of that, it's also the relationship that matters (something that 'free' marketeers will never understand).
If Maddison went to Leicester for 20m, QPR are entitled to look at that (indeed, they should be) and say, as I would be, Eze is younger but has more apps. at this level, is more talented and can go right to the top. It's called talking us up - something that our club historically seem to have had significant difficulty doing (hello, Gerry Francis)! Viruses, agents (are they more or less synonymous?) and what not are part of the noise, but it's absurd to give them more weight than they should be assigned. In short, if clubs are coming in at 8m or 10m, then Covid-19 and its satellites can be told where to get off (as, if the press is to be believed, has already happened on at least one occasion). A large part of not being seen as 'desperate' involves not acting like it.
My main beef with the club is, as usual, the lack of transparency. People can talk all they like about how well-run we now allegedly are (overlooking the fiasco of the modern-day 'Loft', Warren Farm, the evident lack of professionalism during lock-down), but.a glorified car salesman with a college degree and a 'sell/sell, sell' mentality isn't anyone I'd naturally trust very far as a fan, given that I'm interested in, ooh I don't know, building and preserving a team with our best players (which is also hardly separable from holding onto young fans - not that any of our board seem to understand or care about that either).
All that said, the weary-eyed pragmatist in me means I'll eat at least some of my words if Eze & Bright go for 25 million and we spend a big wedge of it on real talent and promise. Sadly, though, that's a lot of breath to hold in in the meantime! As for the poster who, in a bit of self-confessed 'madness' on the Eze thread, talked of keeping them both and going for promotion next season, my eyes rolled so much they almost fell out of their sockets. Yeah, I remember the time when football operated as a game first and a business second, i.e. for fans. These days, the number of 'monetised' customers who seem determined to look at it the other way round are those I feel sorry for, FFP be damned. [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 14:26]
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 15:33 - Aug 11 with 1153 views | kensalriser |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 14:23 - Aug 11 by stainrods_elbow |
Not sure what College of Economics you went to - what is some kind of kindergarten?
'Market value' is self-evidently a much more complex matter than some kind of imposition of buyer preferences. If we compare the football market with that of second-hand cars, a variety of factors in assessing the merchandise will clearly affect the price: speed, condition, reliability, performance and so on all play their part. The market adjusts itself for the most part to stabilise value on a comparative basis, so that, for example, a 10 year old Volvo will have a list price, just as a Championship defender, say, in his early 30s will have his 'ballpark' fee. It's a bit less rigorous in the money-mad football world, of course, to say the least, but it's ludicrous to suggest every transaction is unique and just depends on what the likes of Palace thinks our player is worth to them (which will obviously be taking the piss, at least to start with).
To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association. If, for every job I went after, I just allowed myselto be dragged down lower and lower to whatever a given client might tell me s/he things editors are worth (weirdly, sometimes much less than other manual trades), that'd be (a) a depressing race 'to the bottom' on my side and (b) wouldn't necessarily even get me the job anyway, as some people prefer to pay a little more for higher quality. On top of that, it's also the relationship that matters (something that 'free' marketeers will never understand).
If Maddison went to Leicester for 20m, QPR are entitled to look at that (indeed, they should be) and say, as I would be, Eze is younger but has more apps. at this level, is more talented and can go right to the top. It's called talking us up - something that our club historically seem to have had significant difficulty doing (hello, Gerry Francis)! Viruses, agents (are they more or less synonymous?) and what not are part of the noise, but it's absurd to give them more weight than they should be assigned. In short, if clubs are coming in at 8m or 10m, then Covid-19 and its satellites can be told where to get off (as, if the press is to be believed, has already happened on at least one occasion). A large part of not being seen as 'desperate' involves not acting like it.
My main beef with the club is, as usual, the lack of transparency. People can talk all they like about how well-run we now allegedly are (overlooking the fiasco of the modern-day 'Loft', Warren Farm, the evident lack of professionalism during lock-down), but.a glorified car salesman with a college degree and a 'sell/sell, sell' mentality isn't anyone I'd naturally trust very far as a fan, given that I'm interested in, ooh I don't know, building and preserving a team with our best players (which is also hardly separable from holding onto young fans - not that any of our board seem to understand or care about that either).
All that said, the weary-eyed pragmatist in me means I'll eat at least some of my words if Eze & Bright go for 25 million and we spend a big wedge of it on real talent and promise. Sadly, though, that's a lot of breath to hold in in the meantime! As for the poster who, in a bit of self-confessed 'madness' on the Eze thread, talked of keeping them both and going for promotion next season, my eyes rolled so much they almost fell out of their sockets. Yeah, I remember the time when football operated as a game first and a business second, i.e. for fans. These days, the number of 'monetised' customers who seem determined to look at it the other way round are those I feel sorry for, FFP be damned. [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 14:26]
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You talk too much. |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 15:51 - Aug 11 with 1140 views | BklynRanger |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 15:33 - Aug 11 by kensalriser |
You talk too much. |
Don't dissuade him, I'm hoping to cobble together the synopsis of a half decent mini-series out of this stuff.
Should have it ready to pitch by Halloween at this rate. |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 17:36 - Aug 11 with 1053 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 15:51 - Aug 11 by BklynRanger |
Don't dissuade him, I'm hoping to cobble together the synopsis of a half decent mini-series out of this stuff.
Should have it ready to pitch by Halloween at this rate. |
If you can somehow work in the ‘Women You Shouldn’t Fancy’ thread, and the perennial call from the troglodytes for the manager to be sacked at each and every little hiccup, then you’re looking at a generation defining blockbuster! |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 18:18 - Aug 11 with 1024 views | qprxtc |
There’s probably not a conspiracy against QPR. We’re too insignificant. But there probably is because to us we too important.
Book em, Dano. |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 18:19 - Aug 11 with 1028 views | hantssi |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 14:23 - Aug 11 by stainrods_elbow |
Not sure what College of Economics you went to - what is some kind of kindergarten?
'Market value' is self-evidently a much more complex matter than some kind of imposition of buyer preferences. If we compare the football market with that of second-hand cars, a variety of factors in assessing the merchandise will clearly affect the price: speed, condition, reliability, performance and so on all play their part. The market adjusts itself for the most part to stabilise value on a comparative basis, so that, for example, a 10 year old Volvo will have a list price, just as a Championship defender, say, in his early 30s will have his 'ballpark' fee. It's a bit less rigorous in the money-mad football world, of course, to say the least, but it's ludicrous to suggest every transaction is unique and just depends on what the likes of Palace thinks our player is worth to them (which will obviously be taking the piss, at least to start with).
To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association. If, for every job I went after, I just allowed myselto be dragged down lower and lower to whatever a given client might tell me s/he things editors are worth (weirdly, sometimes much less than other manual trades), that'd be (a) a depressing race 'to the bottom' on my side and (b) wouldn't necessarily even get me the job anyway, as some people prefer to pay a little more for higher quality. On top of that, it's also the relationship that matters (something that 'free' marketeers will never understand).
If Maddison went to Leicester for 20m, QPR are entitled to look at that (indeed, they should be) and say, as I would be, Eze is younger but has more apps. at this level, is more talented and can go right to the top. It's called talking us up - something that our club historically seem to have had significant difficulty doing (hello, Gerry Francis)! Viruses, agents (are they more or less synonymous?) and what not are part of the noise, but it's absurd to give them more weight than they should be assigned. In short, if clubs are coming in at 8m or 10m, then Covid-19 and its satellites can be told where to get off (as, if the press is to be believed, has already happened on at least one occasion). A large part of not being seen as 'desperate' involves not acting like it.
My main beef with the club is, as usual, the lack of transparency. People can talk all they like about how well-run we now allegedly are (overlooking the fiasco of the modern-day 'Loft', Warren Farm, the evident lack of professionalism during lock-down), but.a glorified car salesman with a college degree and a 'sell/sell, sell' mentality isn't anyone I'd naturally trust very far as a fan, given that I'm interested in, ooh I don't know, building and preserving a team with our best players (which is also hardly separable from holding onto young fans - not that any of our board seem to understand or care about that either).
All that said, the weary-eyed pragmatist in me means I'll eat at least some of my words if Eze & Bright go for 25 million and we spend a big wedge of it on real talent and promise. Sadly, though, that's a lot of breath to hold in in the meantime! As for the poster who, in a bit of self-confessed 'madness' on the Eze thread, talked of keeping them both and going for promotion next season, my eyes rolled so much they almost fell out of their sockets. Yeah, I remember the time when football operated as a game first and a business second, i.e. for fans. These days, the number of 'monetised' customers who seem determined to look at it the other way round are those I feel sorry for, FFP be damned. [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 14:26]
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Using your analogy you’ve entered into a contract by accepting the price when ordering, you’re not as clever as you think you are.
Also, Hoos needs to prove noting to any of us, you on the other hand can’t wait to come on here and bash him and Evil Les at any opportunity. |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 21:55 - Aug 11 with 960 views | Match82 |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 14:23 - Aug 11 by stainrods_elbow |
Not sure what College of Economics you went to - what is some kind of kindergarten?
'Market value' is self-evidently a much more complex matter than some kind of imposition of buyer preferences. If we compare the football market with that of second-hand cars, a variety of factors in assessing the merchandise will clearly affect the price: speed, condition, reliability, performance and so on all play their part. The market adjusts itself for the most part to stabilise value on a comparative basis, so that, for example, a 10 year old Volvo will have a list price, just as a Championship defender, say, in his early 30s will have his 'ballpark' fee. It's a bit less rigorous in the money-mad football world, of course, to say the least, but it's ludicrous to suggest every transaction is unique and just depends on what the likes of Palace thinks our player is worth to them (which will obviously be taking the piss, at least to start with).
To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association. If, for every job I went after, I just allowed myselto be dragged down lower and lower to whatever a given client might tell me s/he things editors are worth (weirdly, sometimes much less than other manual trades), that'd be (a) a depressing race 'to the bottom' on my side and (b) wouldn't necessarily even get me the job anyway, as some people prefer to pay a little more for higher quality. On top of that, it's also the relationship that matters (something that 'free' marketeers will never understand).
If Maddison went to Leicester for 20m, QPR are entitled to look at that (indeed, they should be) and say, as I would be, Eze is younger but has more apps. at this level, is more talented and can go right to the top. It's called talking us up - something that our club historically seem to have had significant difficulty doing (hello, Gerry Francis)! Viruses, agents (are they more or less synonymous?) and what not are part of the noise, but it's absurd to give them more weight than they should be assigned. In short, if clubs are coming in at 8m or 10m, then Covid-19 and its satellites can be told where to get off (as, if the press is to be believed, has already happened on at least one occasion). A large part of not being seen as 'desperate' involves not acting like it.
My main beef with the club is, as usual, the lack of transparency. People can talk all they like about how well-run we now allegedly are (overlooking the fiasco of the modern-day 'Loft', Warren Farm, the evident lack of professionalism during lock-down), but.a glorified car salesman with a college degree and a 'sell/sell, sell' mentality isn't anyone I'd naturally trust very far as a fan, given that I'm interested in, ooh I don't know, building and preserving a team with our best players (which is also hardly separable from holding onto young fans - not that any of our board seem to understand or care about that either).
All that said, the weary-eyed pragmatist in me means I'll eat at least some of my words if Eze & Bright go for 25 million and we spend a big wedge of it on real talent and promise. Sadly, though, that's a lot of breath to hold in in the meantime! As for the poster who, in a bit of self-confessed 'madness' on the Eze thread, talked of keeping them both and going for promotion next season, my eyes rolled so much they almost fell out of their sockets. Yeah, I remember the time when football operated as a game first and a business second, i.e. for fans. These days, the number of 'monetised' customers who seem determined to look at it the other way round are those I feel sorry for, FFP be damned. [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 14:26]
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"To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association"
So in your analogy here, QPR set the rate, yes? And other clubs have to match it, i.e. pay the asking price.
If that asking price is too high, QPR don't sell. Or in your case, you wouldn't get any clients.
Tell me, after a year with no clients and no income, would you keep your rates at the same level, or drop them? Especially in the context of you not being able to get any work at all in two years (i.e. end of contract in the QPR side of the analogy) |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 22:12 - Aug 11 with 938 views | NewBee |
On a technical point, for it to be a "conspiracy", it requires two or more parties to be working together.
The idea of eg Chelsea and WHU working together over anything, never mind simply to do down another club like QPR, simply never happens.
So that if they both eg fancied Eze, then they'd be doing their best to screw each other. But if only one was interested, the other wouldn't waste it's time on it, they've got better things to do.
Much more plausible would be a club like QPR playing the likes of Chelsea and WHU off against each other (assuming your guys possess the basic level of competence necessary for such a strategy) [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 22:18]
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 10:24 - Aug 12 with 826 views | NW5Hoop |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 00:37 - Aug 11 by stainrods_elbow |
No you're not! By that logic, I could rock up to my local Italian, order their 15 quid linguine frutti di mare and tell them I was in for a fiver after I'd scoffed it down! And so on and forth.
The deal is, as Warburton keeps repeating to anyone who'll listen, that players leave, if they leave, on our terms. That's probably a bit unconvincingly unbalanced as well, since, as we know, a pragmatic/cat and mouse/who'll blink first element often enters in (depending on variables such as the number of bidders, contractual situations, agents, etc.) If the club sell low, though, it'll be as much down to them not holding out for the right price as what anyone else 'wants' to do - and, as we also know, we have some form here. Negotiations are dynamics, not transactions whose rules are imposed by the buyer or any party, and the drier we can keep our powder, the better.
The football market, of course, makes trying to calibrate players' worth rather ridiculous - when we're talking about relative thresholds like 10, 12, 15 and 20 mill, sanity has clearly long left the building. As Pat Nevin once put it, who's to say a player's worth a fiver?.
However, in the current climate, the comparison with James Maddison seems plausible, who went to Leicester for anything between 20m and 24m, depending on who you read. Despite being a year and a half older, Maddison had racked up less than half the century of games Eze already has under his belt for us, albeit while scoring a similar number of goals. Our man's also optioned for another year, which adds value. On top of that, does anyone seriously think Eze has less talent and potential than Mr Maddison? (Even Maddison himself?)
Personally, I don't think 25 million is unreasonable, but anything less than 20m would be a travesty. He's a Wunderkind with an extraordinary gift, who, in my view, could and should be expecting to emulate our other former 'blink and you'll miss him' starlet Sterling (than whom he has, in my view, more natural ability) - both in the Premiership and for England.
So, if anyone wants to harvest this boy's talent and potential - by god, they need to pay top dollar! Let's just hope Hoos can win back a bit of credibility with this one! |
No, the original point is right. A player is worth what someone will pay for him (if the bid is accepted). Your Italian food analogy is wrong, because you accept the price before ordering. Just as football clubs agree a fee before the transfer is signed.
I dunno why people think the market doesn't apply to football. It does. It applies everywhere people buy and sell. | | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 17:56 - Aug 12 with 692 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 15:33 - Aug 11 by kensalriser |
You talk too much. |
And you're rude, pointless and not someone I'd want to be talking to anyway. | |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 18:05 - Aug 12 with 687 views | londonscottish |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 10:16 - Aug 11 by daveB |
I think bids will come in late for Eze and Bright, wouldn't be surprised if they start the season with us |
+1.
The window's open to October 5th. |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 18:20 - Aug 12 with 664 views | A40Bosh |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 10:24 - Aug 12 by NW5Hoop |
No, the original point is right. A player is worth what someone will pay for him (if the bid is accepted). Your Italian food analogy is wrong, because you accept the price before ordering. Just as football clubs agree a fee before the transfer is signed.
I dunno why people think the market doesn't apply to football. It does. It applies everywhere people buy and sell. |
and the menu is in the window with the price on it.
If someone sees what looks like a bacon sandwich tarted up on sale for £25 they will laugh and go somewhere else to eat. |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 18:48 - Aug 12 with 627 views | NorthantsHoop |
I sort of get the feeling that our selling deals will be towards the end of the window. This is where the middle to lower ranked premier clubs get desperate and start to make inflated bids. At the moment with Eze the club are giving the right messages, they have a threshold, I think it is more near the £15m mark. I would suspect Eze is relaxed about all this and is content to bide his time and I think he appreciates that QPR offered him an opportunity when other clubs let him go. |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 19:08 - Aug 12 with 611 views | essextaxiboy |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 14:23 - Aug 11 by stainrods_elbow |
Not sure what College of Economics you went to - what is some kind of kindergarten?
'Market value' is self-evidently a much more complex matter than some kind of imposition of buyer preferences. If we compare the football market with that of second-hand cars, a variety of factors in assessing the merchandise will clearly affect the price: speed, condition, reliability, performance and so on all play their part. The market adjusts itself for the most part to stabilise value on a comparative basis, so that, for example, a 10 year old Volvo will have a list price, just as a Championship defender, say, in his early 30s will have his 'ballpark' fee. It's a bit less rigorous in the money-mad football world, of course, to say the least, but it's ludicrous to suggest every transaction is unique and just depends on what the likes of Palace thinks our player is worth to them (which will obviously be taking the piss, at least to start with).
To take myself as an example, I'm a freelance editor. The rates I charge clients (I decide, not them - though I also like to offer wriggle-room where people's income is a factor; imagine football doing something like that!) reflect my skills, qualifications, professional history and expertise, as well as the recommended rates of my association. If, for every job I went after, I just allowed myselto be dragged down lower and lower to whatever a given client might tell me s/he things editors are worth (weirdly, sometimes much less than other manual trades), that'd be (a) a depressing race 'to the bottom' on my side and (b) wouldn't necessarily even get me the job anyway, as some people prefer to pay a little more for higher quality. On top of that, it's also the relationship that matters (something that 'free' marketeers will never understand).
If Maddison went to Leicester for 20m, QPR are entitled to look at that (indeed, they should be) and say, as I would be, Eze is younger but has more apps. at this level, is more talented and can go right to the top. It's called talking us up - something that our club historically seem to have had significant difficulty doing (hello, Gerry Francis)! Viruses, agents (are they more or less synonymous?) and what not are part of the noise, but it's absurd to give them more weight than they should be assigned. In short, if clubs are coming in at 8m or 10m, then Covid-19 and its satellites can be told where to get off (as, if the press is to be believed, has already happened on at least one occasion). A large part of not being seen as 'desperate' involves not acting like it.
My main beef with the club is, as usual, the lack of transparency. People can talk all they like about how well-run we now allegedly are (overlooking the fiasco of the modern-day 'Loft', Warren Farm, the evident lack of professionalism during lock-down), but.a glorified car salesman with a college degree and a 'sell/sell, sell' mentality isn't anyone I'd naturally trust very far as a fan, given that I'm interested in, ooh I don't know, building and preserving a team with our best players (which is also hardly separable from holding onto young fans - not that any of our board seem to understand or care about that either).
All that said, the weary-eyed pragmatist in me means I'll eat at least some of my words if Eze & Bright go for 25 million and we spend a big wedge of it on real talent and promise. Sadly, though, that's a lot of breath to hold in in the meantime! As for the poster who, in a bit of self-confessed 'madness' on the Eze thread, talked of keeping them both and going for promotion next season, my eyes rolled so much they almost fell out of their sockets. Yeah, I remember the time when football operated as a game first and a business second, i.e. for fans. These days, the number of 'monetised' customers who seem determined to look at it the other way round are those I feel sorry for, FFP be damned. [Post edited 11 Aug 2020 14:26]
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You dont need to attend any college to understand supply and demand . If the number of " freelance editors" tripled overnight your prices would come under pressure . That doesnt include the ones who prefer to pay for a bit more quality ( see who is doing the preferring there ? ) . .. and see how I replied without derision or insult ? |  | | |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 19:58 - Aug 12 with 571 views | A40Bosh |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 19:08 - Aug 12 by essextaxiboy |
You dont need to attend any college to understand supply and demand . If the number of " freelance editors" tripled overnight your prices would come under pressure . That doesnt include the ones who prefer to pay for a bit more quality ( see who is doing the preferring there ? ) . .. and see how I replied without derision or insult ? |
and such responses are to be commended in this current angsty climate | |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 21:18 - Aug 14 with 459 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
I think it's partly that they see us as a threat.
A wounded Lion.
They know they still have to engage with us but they know we can only limp towards them at the moment.
Rather than help us they're letting us lick our own wounds.
While we watch. |  |
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| Is anyone else starting to think on 22:23 - Aug 14 with 411 views | qprxtc |
| Is anyone else starting to think on 21:18 - Aug 14 by CliveWilsonSaid |
I think it's partly that they see us as a threat.
A wounded Lion.
They know they still have to engage with us but they know we can only limp towards them at the moment.
Rather than help us they're letting us lick our own wounds.
While we watch. |
I think this is the first time I realised your name is CliveWulsonSaid! What a name. What a player.
It should be de rigeur that we should all be named after a player of such quality and magnificence.
Barry. Wallace’s perm. That’s my new name.
Maybe I should go to bed but there beret in the fridge. I hate ducking work it’s cock.0 | | | |
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