| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? 10:03 - Sep 19 with 1330 views | bosh67 |
I watched the goals again last night and a number of the set pieces we *defended' (* sorry if that word offends people) are just awful, but we spend a number of weeks criticising Joe and Liam (and even Jude at the old half time children's penalties) for their performances and I'm watching last night thinking what exactly is or are our goalkeeping coaches doing?
Joe is six foot five, perhaps even taller and yet most of his keeping adheres to the new penalty rule where you are not allowed to come off the line or move until the ball is kicked. I used to remember Phil Parkes back in the stone age who was only just over 6 foot and Jan Stejskal, who bless him couldn't catch but both at every opportunity at a set piece or corner would come thundering out into the mass of players about 12 yards out and punch the ball, punch the ball and several players or just punch players. If that happened Parkes and Stejskal got a free kick for the attacking players smashing their heads into the goalkeeper's fist. David Seaman in his time here did the same.
Occasionally they would all miss the ball completely but there was absolutely no doubt that when a ball came in that the guy in the green jersey had license to wade in like Mike Tyson in the first round in his heyday and clear everything in his path. I am struggling to remember a time in the last few seasons when our goalkeepers have done that? Yes they have sometimes come out to catch a ball but that terrifying bull in a china shop clear the ball and everything around it teaching of keepers seems to have gone in our team.
As much as we have a go at Joe particularly and Liam the issue really appears to be that they spend far too much time fixed to the space within their own 6 yard box. Liam does come out more when players get through on him but then instead of making himself big he just tends to be way off his line.
With Joe, he's a big unit and if you want to set out your stall as a keeper you take no prisoners in your area. Given that we defend grass at set pieces surely the goalkeeping coaches should be saying to the likes of Joe and Liam as the first and second choice... Look this defence really isn't up to defending set pieces and corners so you have to be off your line every time and just use your body weight and fists to clear the danger, rather than stand on the line as a spectator hoping the defence deals with it.
Again, not really a go at Joe or Liam but more an observation that it's really up to the goalkeeper to 'own' the area, be physical and use that presence to sort out poor defending and also put the fear of god into attacking players that the ball and their heads may get knocked off if they go for anything in the air at a set piece.
I'd rather a keeper like Joe missed a few but mainly cleared everyone out to punch a set piece away than just 'trust' the defence to deal with stuff and be a passenger on his own line.
We need a much better defensive minded coach to assist but the keeping coach/coaches need to preach a much more dominant style of keeping. [Post edited 19 Sep 2020 10:10]
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 10:45 - Sep 19 with 1242 views | nix |
I agree with this. Sometimes they don't come for balls in the six yard box that look to me like they're the keeper's ball. And it looks like the defenders have cocked up but maybe it would have been easier for the keeper to gather it/hoof it out than for the defender to defend in the six yard box.
It hadn't occurred to me that it may be the goalkeeping coaches but this is a possibility.
A keeper who defends his area must give so much more confidence to the team. It significantly cuts the amount of work for the central defenders. |  | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 10:54 - Sep 19 with 1230 views | qprd |
I literally could not disagree more
Lumley totally controlled his box against forest. Absolutely owned it and was all over the box
First goal, what do you want him to do? I mean, he has to defend his near post and it ain’teasy to defend free headers from 5 yards out
Second goal, perhaps he could’ve left his line but that was an incredibly deft. (Or lucky) touch to bring the Coventry lad onto goal
Third goal- come on guys. Let’s be real here..... keeper should not be coming for a corner like that.... |  | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:05 - Sep 19 with 1203 views | DejR_vu |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 10:54 - Sep 19 by qprd |
I literally could not disagree more
Lumley totally controlled his box against forest. Absolutely owned it and was all over the box
First goal, what do you want him to do? I mean, he has to defend his near post and it ain’teasy to defend free headers from 5 yards out
Second goal, perhaps he could’ve left his line but that was an incredibly deft. (Or lucky) touch to bring the Coventry lad onto goal
Third goal- come on guys. Let’s be real here..... keeper should not be coming for a corner like that.... |
Third goal - he shouldn’t be standing there like a statue either.
I can’t remember a goalkeeper who concedes so many goals without moving. The number of times the ball’s in the back of the net and he’s either still stood upright or leaning on one knee is weird.
There was a pisstake video Brentford put out in lockdown showing the goals they’ve scored against us. Some were against Smithies, the others were Lumley. Smithies is scrambling about all over the place desperately trying to get to the ball, Lumley’s just standing around. He just looks like a really poor keeper. | |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:28 - Sep 19 with 1172 views | qprd |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:05 - Sep 19 by DejR_vu |
Third goal - he shouldn’t be standing there like a statue either.
I can’t remember a goalkeeper who concedes so many goals without moving. The number of times the ball’s in the back of the net and he’s either still stood upright or leaning on one knee is weird.
There was a pisstake video Brentford put out in lockdown showing the goals they’ve scored against us. Some were against Smithies, the others were Lumley. Smithies is scrambling about all over the place desperately trying to get to the ball, Lumley’s just standing around. He just looks like a really poor keeper. |
This is actually an endemic problem in the way fans watch the game
We think that moving around means you’re trying harder, more switched on, more positional aware than a player who doesn’t do those things... it encourages players to be headless chickens
Lumley ain’t David de gea but I don’t rly know what you want him to do when a Coventry player literally has a free header from 8 yards out? Coventry was literally having target practice at him. I’m pretty sure they had free headers at Lumley from the previous 2 corners
sure, perhaps he could’ve left his line? But he had no chance of getting to that cross and we’d absolutely slate him if he was off his line and in no mans land and Coventry scored.
Sometimes the keeper just doesn’t have a chance | | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:30 - Sep 19 with 1169 views | MedwayR |
Lumley is a poor GK, I don't know why it's taking/taken everyone so long to realise it. He's not particularly big for a GK either bosh, about 6'2. We've had the same GK coach for our current lot and Smithies so I think it's a case of working with what we've got and there's not a lot to work with.
The only goal he could've realistically done better with last night was the 2nd when he should've been off his line to close the angle.
I prefer Kelly but he's not much of an upgrade so I'd like Dieng to get a run of games (presuming he signs a new contract) but I suspect we have 3 GK's of a similar ability when we really need 2 of them as cover and a first choice a cut above them. |  |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:46 - Sep 19 with 1138 views | DejR_vu |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:28 - Sep 19 by qprd |
This is actually an endemic problem in the way fans watch the game
We think that moving around means you’re trying harder, more switched on, more positional aware than a player who doesn’t do those things... it encourages players to be headless chickens
Lumley ain’t David de gea but I don’t rly know what you want him to do when a Coventry player literally has a free header from 8 yards out? Coventry was literally having target practice at him. I’m pretty sure they had free headers at Lumley from the previous 2 corners
sure, perhaps he could’ve left his line? But he had no chance of getting to that cross and we’d absolutely slate him if he was off his line and in no mans land and Coventry scored.
Sometimes the keeper just doesn’t have a chance |
We’re not talking about an outfield player. A goalkeeper literally does have to move.
We’re not talking one game here. This is his third season in the first team and he’s getting worse.
MW said that Lumley had nothing to do against Plymouth other than pick the ball out of the net three times. That’s basically because he can’t make a save. Was it the last goal where the ball is crossed from his left, catches him out, bounces off the crossbar, he gets away with that one, ends up on his right, the attacker cuts in, shoots, and Lumley goes down on one knee as the ball goes into the net. | |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 12:06 - Sep 19 with 1093 views | bosh67 |
I don't think that Joe or Liam are bad keepers. I just think that in this system, with this kind of defence suffering these types of issues that they need to be present in a lot more of the area, dominate it and be a lot more aggressive and physical.
A handful of centre forwards and taller places at set pieces will always fancy their chances against a keeper who trusts his defence to deal with stuff. A keeper that has an aggressive physical presence in these areas is another matter.
The word I think I am looking for is industrial. Our keepers need to be a lot more industrial in the way they command the area given this set up. It's all very well saying they have to be able to play a sort of fly keeper sweeper role as well but our keepers need to make their presence felt. Most forwards given a body moving at pace towards them and punching the ball off their heads won't fancy it much.
I don't think our keepers are that bad they just have to be coached to be that industrial horrible physical presence. | |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 12:24 - Sep 19 with 1041 views | francisbowles |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 12:06 - Sep 19 by bosh67 |
I don't think that Joe or Liam are bad keepers. I just think that in this system, with this kind of defence suffering these types of issues that they need to be present in a lot more of the area, dominate it and be a lot more aggressive and physical.
A handful of centre forwards and taller places at set pieces will always fancy their chances against a keeper who trusts his defence to deal with stuff. A keeper that has an aggressive physical presence in these areas is another matter.
The word I think I am looking for is industrial. Our keepers need to be a lot more industrial in the way they command the area given this set up. It's all very well saying they have to be able to play a sort of fly keeper sweeper role as well but our keepers need to make their presence felt. Most forwards given a body moving at pace towards them and punching the ball off their heads won't fancy it much.
I don't think our keepers are that bad they just have to be coached to be that industrial horrible physical presence. |
The problem with keepers coming off their line is if they do they have to be certain and must clear the ball. I don't think Joe or Liam are confident enough at present to do that very often. If they are in doubt they must stay on the line and they mustn't start to come and then change their mind. Both those scenarios lead to more 'disasters'.
The disadvantage though of keepers staying on their line is that attackers are more likely to run and jump whereas defenders are more likely to get a standing jump and rise later and less high, as we saw with the third goal last night. | | | |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 12:54 - Sep 19 with 988 views | Nov77 |
Rob green said that for the first goal once he got in position he should have set himself, but his momentum was all over the place and he ended up in the back in of the net along with the ball.
Second goal, ok he might not have saved it anyway, but he was flat footed, stuck on his line. If he had taken one or two steps forward toward the ball he would have significantly increased his chance of making a block.
Third goal, again, it’s not that he didn’t save it, it’s that he didn’t attempt to save it. The ball was only a couple of feet to his left. Somebody pointed out the difference between the effort their keeper made for Barbet’s goal and Lumley’s non attempt.
Lumley is not a proactive keeper, he doesn’t anticipate. Sometimes he is not even reactive, too many times there is no real attempt to make a save.
Btw, Esox Lucius is going to have a field day with the down arrow when he reads this thread. |  |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:01 - Sep 19 with 912 views | bakerloo8 |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 11:28 - Sep 19 by qprd |
This is actually an endemic problem in the way fans watch the game
We think that moving around means you’re trying harder, more switched on, more positional aware than a player who doesn’t do those things... it encourages players to be headless chickens
Lumley ain’t David de gea but I don’t rly know what you want him to do when a Coventry player literally has a free header from 8 yards out? Coventry was literally having target practice at him. I’m pretty sure they had free headers at Lumley from the previous 2 corners
sure, perhaps he could’ve left his line? But he had no chance of getting to that cross and we’d absolutely slate him if he was off his line and in no mans land and Coventry scored.
Sometimes the keeper just doesn’t have a chance |
Smithies would've saved that 3rd goal last night, no doubt about it. Wasnt top corner by any means.
Dont wanna have a go a Joe, just think he isn't up to this level of football. Hes costing us too many points. |  | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:05 - Sep 19 with 901 views | Nov77 |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:01 - Sep 19 by bakerloo8 |
Smithies would've saved that 3rd goal last night, no doubt about it. Wasnt top corner by any means.
Dont wanna have a go a Joe, just think he isn't up to this level of football. Hes costing us too many points. |
Smithies just did make a save from a free header from a forest player who was only 5 yards out, tipped it over the bar. | |
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| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 13:42 - Sep 20 with 646 views | Paddyhoops |
Could"nt agree more. A goalkeeper has the added advantage of being able to use hands.
It's not rocket science! | | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:21 - Sep 20 with 621 views | bakerloo8 |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:05 - Sep 19 by Nov77 |
Smithies just did make a save from a free header from a forest player who was only 5 yards out, tipped it over the bar. |
The difference between a top Championship keeper and league one standard keepers is stark. Smithies must've saved us 10 points a season, Lumley and Kelly prob cost us 10 last season.
I would rate both Lumley and Kelly as ok L1 keepers and we need better. I'm not sure about Dieng but he cant be worse surely. | | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 14:24 - Sep 20 with 616 views | bakerloo8 |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 12:24 - Sep 19 by francisbowles |
The problem with keepers coming off their line is if they do they have to be certain and must clear the ball. I don't think Joe or Liam are confident enough at present to do that very often. If they are in doubt they must stay on the line and they mustn't start to come and then change their mind. Both those scenarios lead to more 'disasters'.
The disadvantage though of keepers staying on their line is that attackers are more likely to run and jump whereas defenders are more likely to get a standing jump and rise later and less high, as we saw with the third goal last night. |
If you dont come off your line to claim the ball then you need to be a top shot stopper. neither Lumley or Kelly are that. | | | |
| Defending is awful but goal keeping coaches? on 20:15 - Sep 20 with 526 views | derbyhoop |
The Coventry guy has met that full on the forehead and absolutely thumped it into the top corner. I'm not sure many keepers would have got anywhere near it. |  |
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