| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:26 - Oct 29 with 743 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 12:45 - Oct 29 by Antti_Heinola |
Hmm...
Dispassionately, I completely agree.
But as a fan, comments like that only serve the argument that too many refs don't 'get' the game. If you're chasing a game and are applying pressure and desperate for an equaliser, a wrong decision even as trivial as a throw in is intensely frustrating. If you, or other refs, can't see that, or understand it, even if you disagree with it, I worry a bit! |
Oh and btw how do we improve our decision making to match the closeness of the game? 
Finally, after over 500 games as an official and nearly 55 as a fan to say I don't 'get' the game is a little insulting tbh. |  | |  |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:28 - Oct 29 with 729 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:20 - Oct 29 by Myke |
To add to Annti's comment, my own view would be that if they (officials) get 'trivial' matters clearly wrong ( and you can argue that ceding possession due to a wrong call isn't trivial in the first place) then how can they be trusted on the major decisions?
Of course refs are human Paul, and mistakes by players officials and management are part and parcel of the game, but I think it's important that refs understand the potential significance of every call they make - 'trivial' or otherwise |
I do - see above.
I'm not writing a 'how to ref' manual on here, but as you say, just like the players, there are obviously decisions made in a 90'+ game that vary in importance - no? | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:34 - Oct 29 with 710 views | Myke |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:28 - Oct 29 by PinnerPaul |
I do - see above.
I'm not writing a 'how to ref' manual on here, but as you say, just like the players, there are obviously decisions made in a 90'+ game that vary in importance - no? |
Fair comments Paul.Just goes to show there are different perspectives to every situation. Just out of curiosity, if you are watching a game as a fan and the ref//assistant makes a 'bad' call, do you react as a fan or as a ref? (Sorry, p1ssing rain here and I'm on mid-term break!) | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:46 - Oct 29 with 694 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:34 - Oct 29 by Myke |
Fair comments Paul.Just goes to show there are different perspectives to every situation. Just out of curiosity, if you are watching a game as a fan and the ref//assistant makes a 'bad' call, do you react as a fan or as a ref? (Sorry, p1ssing rain here and I'm on mid-term break!) |
No worries mate - sorry a bit tetchy with previous answers there!
Anyway back to the question - I tend to react to different things and get excited over things most around me at KPFS don't and vice versa.
Ref and assistants 'crossing' really gets me - it shoudn't happen at any level but with communication its unforgivable really - Kevin Friend recently an example - right decision on the Wallace pen but no excuse for him giving free kick first.
Players getting treated on the fop really annoys me and the tape on fingers that they are all wearing now.
Conversely nearly every offside decision at KPFS is greeted with howls of derision, when they are correct nearly all the time.
I still shout at the ref if I don't agree with a foul/no foul decision though - again for some reason that often seems at odds with those around me - always embarrasses Mrs PP those! :-)
Finally, you DID ask!, I always look at ref when we score before going mental - just in case he's disallowed it. | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:01 - Oct 29 with 663 views | NewBee |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 11:58 - Oct 29 by Myke |
A top GAA player was once asked about the futility of arguing with the ref because they never reverse their decision .'I know' he said, 'but you might get the next one in your favour'. We are deffo too nice and have been since Derry left |
I used to play Sunday football, college football too - crap, but fun.
I was, shall we say, a CB more from the Pulis School of Defending than La Masia. I was also a bit of a mouthy git - teammates, opposition, refs etc.
Then I sustained a bad injury one September(?) which was my season over. Anyhow, for want of something to do, I took my basic refereeing badge over the winter (mostly classroom stuff), and then in the spring I did a bit of refereeing on the field, to get my fitness back up. (Not ready for physical contact yet).
Anyways, it completely changed my view of refereeing. I realised just how irritating it was to have players constantly in your ear - esp when so many simply didn't know the rules (as was the case with me before I did the course lol).
In short, when a player(s) has a go at the ref, he can react one of two ways. One, he can become intimidated and cave in. Which will lead to his giving the next decision in his favour, as your Gaelic mate says. But. The other team will soon cotton on to this, so they'll start harrassing the ref too, resulting only in mayhem, worse refereeing and greater dissatisfaction all round.
The other reaction is to take the hump at being argued with i.e. the next time that player is involved, you mightn't deliberately give a wrong decision against him, but if it's 50:50, as they often are, then his opponent gets the benefit of the doubt. Every. Single. Time.
I chose the latter approach and if I say so myself, I wasn't a bad ref - certainly better than as a player! - and I often got asked back to referee. However, I didn't bother taking it up seriously, not least because the abuse made it less fun than it should have been.
One postscript, however. When I resumed playing, I made a vow never to hassle a referee or linesman, no matter how poor they were. In fact, I always made a point of going up to them after a game, shaking their hand and thanking them. This wasn't because I'm a particularly sporting fellow, but I recognised how hard it is and besides, it gave me one great advantage.
Over time, you got to know the local refs and they got to know you and the next four or five seasons in the league I was never sent off once, and (I think) only ever got booked once. I am convinced it was because refs recognised me and gave me the benefit of the doubt, not just for the 50:50's, but the 60:40's or even the odd 70:30!
And I was reminded of this a few years later when some retired League referee mentioned that the easiest teams he ever refereed were those managed by Brian Clough - famous for demanding his players never argued with the officials.
Which considering the success his teams enjoyed - even with tough nuts like Kenny Burns and Larry Lloyd etc - gives the lie to the idea of teams being "too nice" to get a fair break from the referee. | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:42 - Oct 29 with 606 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 13:26 - Oct 29 by PinnerPaul |
Oh and btw how do we improve our decision making to match the closeness of the game?
Finally, after over 500 games as an official and nearly 55 as a fan to say I don't 'get' the game is a little insulting tbh. |
I didn't say you didn't get it. I said if you can't understand players or fans frustration you don't get it. Sorry for the offence, it wasn't really meant that badly! But Myke's right, if a simple decision, even a trivial one, goes against a team, regardless of the score, it's annoying. I particularly hate to see the ref and RA look at each other and almost shrug before giving it the wrong way, but I also accept sometimes they legitimately couldn't see or couldn't tell. That happens.
On another point you made, I share your frustration about the howls about offsides - I'm with you, they are correct almost always. But I also share the frustration of fans. It feels like every season that bloody law is tweaked and a lot of fans simply can't keep track and the recent ones of the lino being told to keep his flag down until the player has physically touched the ball (I know that's simplistic, but you know what I mean) needlessly angers fans. Some know it's not the RA's fault, others simply don't. Either way, it's a fkn mess, as is VAR, and I feel sorry for the officials having to deal with all that nonsense! |  |
| |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:44 - Oct 29 with 599 views | Northernr |
No that's not right...
Foul opponent on breakaway (assuming by this you mean through on goal) outside the box with a genuine attempt to play the ball = red.
Foul opponent on breakaway outside the box with cynical pull back after they've got away from you = red
Foul opponent on breakaway (assuming by this you mean through on goal) inside the box with a genuine attempt to play the ball = yellow and penalty.
Foul opponent on breakaway inside the box with cynical pull back after they've got away from you = red and penalty. |  | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:50 - Oct 29 with 576 views | Northernr |
Ok yeh, but Man City didn't invent that so-called "tactical fouling", Man Utd used to be absolute masters of it under Ferguson, and dare I say Neil Warnock's teams are pretty dab hands at it too - hence his fury at Faurlin for not tripping the West Brom lad that time. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 15:11 - Oct 29 with 545 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:42 - Oct 29 by Antti_Heinola |
I didn't say you didn't get it. I said if you can't understand players or fans frustration you don't get it. Sorry for the offence, it wasn't really meant that badly! But Myke's right, if a simple decision, even a trivial one, goes against a team, regardless of the score, it's annoying. I particularly hate to see the ref and RA look at each other and almost shrug before giving it the wrong way, but I also accept sometimes they legitimately couldn't see or couldn't tell. That happens.
On another point you made, I share your frustration about the howls about offsides - I'm with you, they are correct almost always. But I also share the frustration of fans. It feels like every season that bloody law is tweaked and a lot of fans simply can't keep track and the recent ones of the lino being told to keep his flag down until the player has physically touched the ball (I know that's simplistic, but you know what I mean) needlessly angers fans. Some know it's not the RA's fault, others simply don't. Either way, it's a fkn mess, as is VAR, and I feel sorry for the officials having to deal with all that nonsense! |
Fair enough.
I've made my views on VAR very clear and did so even before it arrived in the PL!
Yes I agree about the AR late flags - as I said ages and ages ago, even with VAR you can't correct a wrong offside once its been given, so now we have the silly safety first policy whereby, even for relatively obvious offsides, AR is waiting.
Agree again about the tweaks to offside - like the handball law, its just become too confusing for the 'average' fan | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 15:12 - Oct 29 with 543 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:44 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
No that's not right...
Foul opponent on breakaway (assuming by this you mean through on goal) outside the box with a genuine attempt to play the ball = red.
Foul opponent on breakaway outside the box with cynical pull back after they've got away from you = red
Foul opponent on breakaway (assuming by this you mean through on goal) inside the box with a genuine attempt to play the ball = yellow and penalty.
Foul opponent on breakaway inside the box with cynical pull back after they've got away from you = red and penalty. |
Correct 4/4  | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 15:17 - Oct 29 with 530 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 14:50 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
Ok yeh, but Man City didn't invent that so-called "tactical fouling", Man Utd used to be absolute masters of it under Ferguson, and dare I say Neil Warnock's teams are pretty dab hands at it too - hence his fury at Faurlin for not tripping the West Brom lad that time. |
Yep and they've tweaked this law to make the tactical foul even more worth committing.
If a player attempts to deny an obvious etc etc but fails, ie player stays on his feet, you play advantage, but as goal scoring opportunity was not denied in the end, you can only go back and caution.
So now if a tactical foul fails , and player carries on, you can't caution for stopping a promising attack, because attack hasn't been stopped.
On both of these you can of course send off for serious foul play or caution for a reckless tackle regardless of advantage played, however to play advantage on a red card offence is seen as a big no no unless team just about to score.
Blimey all this laws stuff (almost) takes your mind off the result
 | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 15:38 - Oct 29 with 512 views | Noelmc |
I still think a red card and a penalty is a double whammy, especially as most penalties are scored. I'd love to see the introduction of a 'Provisional Red Card' in these cases. With this, the defender is only sent off if the penalty is missed. If scored, it is downgraded to a yellow card.
As well as eliminating the double whammy, it would also allow some interesting tactical decisions, such as;
- a deliberate miss to ensure defender goes.
- keeper not attempting a save to keep defender on the pitch.
Such decisions would likely depend on the state of the match when the penalty was awarded. So, on Tuesday, I suspect Dieng would not have attempted a save, but if we were 1-0 up with 15 minutes left I'd think he would try to save it, hoping that we could hang on with 10 men.
Probably less obvious regarding Woodrow's options, although at 0-0, I think he would have tried to score. |  | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 17:25 - Oct 29 with 446 views | Northernr |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 15:38 - Oct 29 by Noelmc |
I still think a red card and a penalty is a double whammy, especially as most penalties are scored. I'd love to see the introduction of a 'Provisional Red Card' in these cases. With this, the defender is only sent off if the penalty is missed. If scored, it is downgraded to a yellow card.
As well as eliminating the double whammy, it would also allow some interesting tactical decisions, such as;
- a deliberate miss to ensure defender goes.
- keeper not attempting a save to keep defender on the pitch.
Such decisions would likely depend on the state of the match when the penalty was awarded. So, on Tuesday, I suspect Dieng would not have attempted a save, but if we were 1-0 up with 15 minutes left I'd think he would try to save it, hoping that we could hang on with 10 men.
Probably less obvious regarding Woodrow's options, although at 0-0, I think he would have tried to score. |
That's actually a good idea I think - with the proviso that if it's serious foul play then it's a red card for that regardless of whether it's scored or not. | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 18:32 - Oct 29 with 403 views | PinnerPaul |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 17:25 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
That's actually a good idea I think - with the proviso that if it's serious foul play then it's a red card for that regardless of whether it's scored or not. |
Can see the logic/fair play aspect but do we really need the laws to be even more complicated? | | | |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 19:06 - Oct 29 with 389 views | WestbourneR |
| Alarm bells ringing after another Barnsley humbling - Report on 17:25 - Oct 29 by Northernr |
That's actually a good idea I think - with the proviso that if it's serious foul play then it's a red card for that regardless of whether it's scored or not. |
Yeah I like this idea - otherwise only silly move in the area completely kills the game, like it did on Tuesday. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
