| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread 15:29 - Dec 4 with 12450 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Thought it deserved it’s own. Predictions?
Especially keen to hear from Rs not based here and outside the bubble. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 15:31]
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 22:42 - Dec 7 with 938 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 22:34 - Dec 7 by Lblock |
I'll be 32 when I win a major tournament though!!
Not looking for an argument and I totally get the welcome change in modern day coaching has been brilliant. I was no fan of the "put it in the mixer" and "four four fckin two" approach. However I think it's a stretch to say St Georges is a fulcrum for this -- it's surely a sea change across the world??? We all looked at Spain and France in wonderment but all they really did was encourage ball players, pace and aggressive running to close other teams down. That's the football we all want to see but with a bit of a mix up now and then. that cross the board change has been main factor in some diamonds emerging for us IMHO
We'll see on Saturday how our Gareth plays it and please God all those three lads you mention play plus maybe Rashford (who I've loved as a player since he was 17 and backed totally even in his dip -- he is a real game changer when on it).
BTW .... the anger long since faded... the disappointment and disengagement does live on though (I know how my wife feels about our marriage now) |
France won the World Cup exactly ten years after it opened Clairfontaine.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/11/17/france-world-cup-clairefontaine
Spain similar with La Ciudad.
I think it’s important. [Post edited 7 Dec 2022 22:42]
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 07:18 - Dec 8 with 804 views | distortR |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 11:43 - Dec 7 by Juzzie |
That's the problem, people see anything other than winning as a failure. It's not. |
Not Southgate's biggest fan, but he'll be judged on results at the end of this tournament.
That's a proviso to this comment about your comment - I think one of our countries biggest problems is our acceptance of mediocrity. |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 08:08 - Dec 8 with 747 views | daveB |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 07:18 - Dec 8 by distortR |
Not Southgate's biggest fan, but he'll be judged on results at the end of this tournament.
That's a proviso to this comment about your comment - I think one of our countries biggest problems is our acceptance of mediocrity. |
not sure anyone is accepting mediocrity, thats what we had at best before Southgate since then we've been competing to win things and whatever happens on Saturday I think that will continue.
What he's brought to England in his previous role and this one is a different approach to tournaments at all levels, a bit of joined up thinking and learning from mistakes, the results for the other age groups over the last 10 years and the womens team show that we're starting to learn how to play these tournaments. To have a record where he's won more knockout games in 4 years than the country had won in the previous 60 shows this. A lot of that has com from St Georges Park but also from changes made to youth development by Trevor Brooking 15 years ago.
Of course he has flaws, none of the international managers are elite like a Pep or Klopp, other than Enrique and the Herr Flick I doubt any of the others would get a top club job and even those two are out already, His big flaw has been his changes in the big games have been too slow and not worked.
I do think Saturday will be a defining day for Southgate, if we lose even if we play well and it's a close one I think he'll always been seen by many as the one who did well but couldn't win the really big matches. |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 09:07 - Dec 8 with 715 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 07:18 - Dec 8 by distortR |
Not Southgate's biggest fan, but he'll be judged on results at the end of this tournament.
That's a proviso to this comment about your comment - I think one of our countries biggest problems is our acceptance of mediocrity. |
It’s the non Southgate years that have accepted mediocracy. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 09:22 - Dec 8 with 705 views | hubble |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 21:57 - Dec 6 by traininvain |
One reason- to say that they were right and the majority of us were wrong. |
Hmmm. I think that's unfair.
Everyone's got an opinion in football; often they're knee-jerk or reactionary, but sometimes they're measured and considered. The case against Southgate, especially following the Euros last year, was reasonable. He has had possibly the finest squad, especially in terms of depth, of any England manager. He has benefited hugely from the fact that most of the England players train with elite managers like Klopp and Guardiola, and have come through the youth schemes mentioned.
I was at the Euros final last year and I thought Southgate got it badly wrong: Italy were there for the taking, and how often to opportunites to win a major tournament come by? Very rarely. So the residual anger about that is understandable. Then we had the debacle of the Nations League leading into this World Cup. I think you can understand people's frustration. At the same time, we can change our minds. I was one of those who felt (again, perhaps understandably) that Southgate was not the right man for the job, despite - and I know it sounds ludicrous on paper - a semi-final finish to the 2018 WC and reaching the final last year. However, I am happy to hold my hands up and say he has (well, temporarily at least!) converted me. I agree that the squad seem happy and they're playing some beautiful football.
But that's the point: this is football: it is these days pretty much all people have in a world devoid of spiritual value and meaning: football. So the expectations and hopes and desires are ridiculous. But... he's carrying it. So fair play to him, I'm going to be 100% behind him and the team.... unless we cock it up against France of course! But go out playing great football, I don't mind. It's just that bloody Euros final that still rankles.... Beating France and - who knows - winning the bloody tournament - well, he'll achieve god-like status. |  |
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 09:37 - Dec 8 with 691 views | MrSheen |
Hard to judge Southgate's positive or negative contribution to this, but what's undeniable is that the calibre of young players emerging in this country now is off the scale compared to a few years ago, when Connor Wickham could be described as the best English forward prospect in a generation. Just look at the quality (technically, if not in terms of risk-taking or entertainment) of the league games we get to see each week compared to when we fielded the likes of Bircham and Bean at this level. Trouble is, everyone else seems to be getting better too... |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 10:02 - Dec 8 with 669 views | traininvain |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 09:22 - Dec 8 by hubble |
Hmmm. I think that's unfair.
Everyone's got an opinion in football; often they're knee-jerk or reactionary, but sometimes they're measured and considered. The case against Southgate, especially following the Euros last year, was reasonable. He has had possibly the finest squad, especially in terms of depth, of any England manager. He has benefited hugely from the fact that most of the England players train with elite managers like Klopp and Guardiola, and have come through the youth schemes mentioned.
I was at the Euros final last year and I thought Southgate got it badly wrong: Italy were there for the taking, and how often to opportunites to win a major tournament come by? Very rarely. So the residual anger about that is understandable. Then we had the debacle of the Nations League leading into this World Cup. I think you can understand people's frustration. At the same time, we can change our minds. I was one of those who felt (again, perhaps understandably) that Southgate was not the right man for the job, despite - and I know it sounds ludicrous on paper - a semi-final finish to the 2018 WC and reaching the final last year. However, I am happy to hold my hands up and say he has (well, temporarily at least!) converted me. I agree that the squad seem happy and they're playing some beautiful football.
But that's the point: this is football: it is these days pretty much all people have in a world devoid of spiritual value and meaning: football. So the expectations and hopes and desires are ridiculous. But... he's carrying it. So fair play to him, I'm going to be 100% behind him and the team.... unless we cock it up against France of course! But go out playing great football, I don't mind. It's just that bloody Euros final that still rankles.... Beating France and - who knows - winning the bloody tournament - well, he'll achieve god-like status. |
I can definitely see why people had doubts going into the World Cup after the Nations League performance but Southgate’s major tournament record speaks for itself. Granted he has good players to work with but so did Sven, Capello etc and they never got it right so I think Southgate deserves some goodwill for reaching a World Cup semi final, euros final and now a World Cup quarter final.
Losing to Italy in the final was disappointing but we were a few penalty kicks away from winning a major tournament. The closest any England manager has come since 1966. Again, I would argue that Southgate deserves credit for coming so close but each to their own.
Finally, just to address the main reason why I said that it feels like some people want to be proven right rather than admit they were wrong- I asked Lblock if he still thinks Southgate should go even if England win the World Cup beating France, Spain, Brazil etc in the process. Lblock replied ‘Yes I do’.
I don’t really understand that mindset but you’re right, people are entitled to have different opinions and I respect Lblock even if we don’t share the same view on England, Southgate etc. Perhaps my post was a bit blunt as it’s a bit more nuanced but I hope most of us would agree that Southgate should be knighted if England win the World Cup in the aforementioned circumstances! |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 10:42 - Dec 8 with 619 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 09:22 - Dec 8 by hubble |
Hmmm. I think that's unfair.
Everyone's got an opinion in football; often they're knee-jerk or reactionary, but sometimes they're measured and considered. The case against Southgate, especially following the Euros last year, was reasonable. He has had possibly the finest squad, especially in terms of depth, of any England manager. He has benefited hugely from the fact that most of the England players train with elite managers like Klopp and Guardiola, and have come through the youth schemes mentioned.
I was at the Euros final last year and I thought Southgate got it badly wrong: Italy were there for the taking, and how often to opportunites to win a major tournament come by? Very rarely. So the residual anger about that is understandable. Then we had the debacle of the Nations League leading into this World Cup. I think you can understand people's frustration. At the same time, we can change our minds. I was one of those who felt (again, perhaps understandably) that Southgate was not the right man for the job, despite - and I know it sounds ludicrous on paper - a semi-final finish to the 2018 WC and reaching the final last year. However, I am happy to hold my hands up and say he has (well, temporarily at least!) converted me. I agree that the squad seem happy and they're playing some beautiful football.
But that's the point: this is football: it is these days pretty much all people have in a world devoid of spiritual value and meaning: football. So the expectations and hopes and desires are ridiculous. But... he's carrying it. So fair play to him, I'm going to be 100% behind him and the team.... unless we cock it up against France of course! But go out playing great football, I don't mind. It's just that bloody Euros final that still rankles.... Beating France and - who knows - winning the bloody tournament - well, he'll achieve god-like status. |
Wasn’t exactly Barry Fry managing Rooney, Beckham, and Lampard was it! | | | |
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 11:34 - Dec 8 with 564 views | traininvain |
Also worth pointing out that Joachim Low took over as Germany manager in 2006. They were runners up at the 2008 Euros, beaten World Cup semi finalists in 2010 and lost in the semi finals again at the Euros in 2012.
I’m sure there must have been calls for Low to go along the way but they kept the faith and it paid dividends with a World Cup win in 2014.
England under Southgate are following a similar trajectory. It’s a learning curve managing at this level and Southgate is better placed now than he was a few years ago. If we get rid of him then you have to start that process all over again. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 11:45 - Dec 8 with 539 views | Maggsinho |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Senegal 🇸🇳 Match Thread on 11:34 - Dec 8 by traininvain |
Also worth pointing out that Joachim Low took over as Germany manager in 2006. They were runners up at the 2008 Euros, beaten World Cup semi finalists in 2010 and lost in the semi finals again at the Euros in 2012.
I’m sure there must have been calls for Low to go along the way but they kept the faith and it paid dividends with a World Cup win in 2014.
England under Southgate are following a similar trajectory. It’s a learning curve managing at this level and Southgate is better placed now than he was a few years ago. If we get rid of him then you have to start that process all over again. |
I struggle to think of anyone who could take over from Southgate; Lee Carsley if they want to promote from within again? Howe and Potter are unlikely to leave their clubs, John Herdman? Doubt there's an appetite for a foreign manager again after the Sven and Capello experiences.
So, Mick Beale?  |  | | |
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