| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow 10:02 - Nov 20 with 4088 views | johnlangy |
On Newsnight last night there were Labour, Lib Dem and Tory MP's discussing the possible outcomes of next week's budget. The Tory MP confirmed yet again why I haven't listened seriously to a word they've said since being kicked out of office.
They (the Tories) argue against tax rises. They say that the tax take in this country is far too high. They also argue against borrowing saying the nation can't simply borrow its way forward because that debt has to be repaid at some point. So that leaves cutting government expenditure.
While making one point she criticised the Labour MP for referring back to the mess the Conservatives had left behind in 2024 saying what's important is the situation we are in now forgetting that five minutes before she had criticised Labour for the mess they had left behind in 2010. The stupidity just baffles me.
When the Conservatives were in power after 2010 they introduced austerity by massively cutting government expenditure. This resulted in all the pillars of a civilised country being ruined. The health service, education, policing and justice and a massive 40% decrease in local government funding.
So in 2010, of the three options they took the cut spending option which, by their logic, would mean no rise in taxes or borrowing. WRONG. At the same time as cutting spending they massively tripled the UK national debt from around £900 billion to almost £3 trillion.
I'm sure someone will mention Covid borrowing but that would only account for around a fifth of the extra they loaded onto the national debt during their disastrous fourteen years in office. |  | | |  |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:46 - Nov 23 with 901 views | Whiterockin |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:08 - Nov 23 by Dr_Winston |
And now we see the child benefit cap lifted, which could result in some families trousering thousands a year more in taxpayers cash.
Lunacy. |
if you can't afford to have children keep your trousers done up, it's not complicated. |  | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:51 - Nov 23 with 892 views | onehunglow |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:46 - Nov 23 by Whiterockin |
if you can't afford to have children keep your trousers done up, it's not complicated. |
Too true
Millions pay for kids they can’t afford
it’s a lifestyle paid for by you Winston Fireboy and everyone else
Having kids is voluntary and costly
The pay off is worth it | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:57 - Nov 23 with 886 views | Dr_Winston |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:46 - Nov 23 by Whiterockin |
if you can't afford to have children keep your trousers done up, it's not complicated. |
The demographics of larger families are worth an investigate too. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:26 - Nov 23 with 807 views | controversial_jack |
The national debt cannot be paid back, it's simply too high. This country is not unique in having a huge debt and is not the worse by a long way.
Tax increases are not popular with the voters, whoever does it. The only alternative is to borrow, there is no other way. it's catch 22, unfortunately.
Voters don't want the Scandinavian model of higher taxation for excellence services and social care. The likes of Farage would go completely the opposite and follow the US system, which is basically a disaster zone | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:30 - Nov 23 with 796 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:46 - Nov 23 by Whiterockin |
if you can't afford to have children keep your trousers done up, it's not complicated. |
Very true but on the flip side of the coin everyone’s always moaning about having a low birth rate and aging population and using that as a justification to bring millions in from the third world so perhaps there should be a financial incentive for couples to fire out as many sprogs as humanly possible? |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:33 - Nov 23 with 781 views | trampie |
Taxes in this country aren't high, its living costs that are high, the cost of houses, energy costs, council tax, entertainment costs etc.
Compare our taxes with other European countries and our taxes aren't high, plus our income taxes used to be a lot higher for rich people in the past. |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 15:09 - Nov 23 with 761 views | controversial_jack |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:33 - Nov 23 by trampie |
Taxes in this country aren't high, its living costs that are high, the cost of houses, energy costs, council tax, entertainment costs etc.
Compare our taxes with other European countries and our taxes aren't high, plus our income taxes used to be a lot higher for rich people in the past. |
This is correct. The other costs are high as you stated because of privatization, supply and demand, basically the market. Why anyone would pay £6 for a pint of slop at the stadium is beyond me. Stop paying and prices will come down | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 15:35 - Nov 23 with 747 views | Dr_Winston |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:30 - Nov 23 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Very true but on the flip side of the coin everyone’s always moaning about having a low birth rate and aging population and using that as a justification to bring millions in from the third world so perhaps there should be a financial incentive for couples to fire out as many sprogs as humanly possible? |
You would have to offer it only to those who were already here though, otherwise it's just another incentive for people to relocate to the UK. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 17:54 - Nov 23 with 691 views | majorraglan |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:30 - Nov 23 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Very true but on the flip side of the coin everyone’s always moaning about having a low birth rate and aging population and using that as a justification to bring millions in from the third world so perhaps there should be a financial incentive for couples to fire out as many sprogs as humanly possible? |
Not if it incentivises the CHAVs, NEET’s, the idle and those who have no inclination to make a contribution to have numerous children. Any short term gain I’ll be more than offset by the long term implications of having further pressure on services, social housing, criminal justice system, benefits etc when we have to pick up the tab for it all.
The people we should be incentivising to have kids are the people who work hard, make a contribution to society, set good examples etc etc, unfortunately they’re the ones who aren’t having kids. [Post edited 23 Nov 17:57]
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 18:07 - Nov 23 with 667 views | Dr_Winston |
Maybe a better idea would be to axe all child benefits, but have a different, lower income tax code for people with children. That way only those who are working would benefit. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 18:10 - Nov 23 with 665 views | johnlangy |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:30 - Nov 23 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Very true but on the flip side of the coin everyone’s always moaning about having a low birth rate and aging population and using that as a justification to bring millions in from the third world so perhaps there should be a financial incentive for couples to fire out as many sprogs as humanly possible? |
Correct.
In 1960 there were 4.1 taxpaying workers for every OAP. The number now is down to about 2.3. We need a birthrate of 2.1 to maintain the current level but the current actual birthrate is 1.7.
I'm sure many people believe that successive governments have promoted immigration (legal) because people who want to migrate to the UK are for the most part young so will have children. And, to a large extent they come from cultures where they tend to have more children than your average british couples. But we all know people's attitude toward immigration these days don't we.
So how do you get around it ? The obvious answer is for british people to have more children. Simple. But millions of people say they can't afford to have more children because the cost of raising them is so high.
In spite of that some people do have more than two. But then they struggle with the cost of living because they can't claim benefits for their third/fourth etc child. And when it's suggested that the two child benefit cap is removed there's a huge argument against increasing the welfare bill. And anyway the skiving layabouts should get out and get a job, if their not already working which millions of them are, to pay their own way.
But the welfare bill will still get higher and higher because we'll have more and more pensioners with less and less tax payers. So eventually all taxes will go on welfare. But we're not willing to help people have more children.
But never mind, lets just have more immigration.
What on earth will good old Nigel say. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 18:18 - Nov 23 with 660 views | majorraglan |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:08 - Nov 23 by Dr_Winston |
And now we see the child benefit cap lifted, which could result in some families trousering thousands a year more in taxpayers cash.
Lunacy. |
A month or so ago, for work related issues I had to attend a foodbank. Whilst there, I spoke to a service user in her 40’s who had 6 kids, the two eldest were over 16 ( and I believe they had moved out) the youngest four children were all under 7 years of age. At least one of the children was neuro diverse. The female was living in a 2 bedroom house, but was hoping to get a larger house from the council/ housing association.
Clearly things weren’t great for this lady and her family to the extent she was accessing a foodbank and removing the benefits cap would no doubt help this lady and more importantly her children, but having 6 kids begs the question at what point (if any) should she (and her partner /husband etc if she has one) take responsibility and what is society’s expectation about paying for the kids, house etc. I don’t believe any of the children were multiple births twins, triplets.
A lot of good work takes place at food banks, some of the people accessing foodbanks have genuinely fallen on hard times through no fault of their own. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 18:26 - Nov 23 with 648 views | Dr_Winston |
Some, but by no means all, or even a majority.
Back in the day we used to issue food bank referrals on a Wednesday morning. By about 11am most of them were generally on sale at various High Street hostelries.
We also used to get people doing a tour. They'd come to us, then go to Gorseinon and Morriston to try and get more. Worst case I can remember was two skanks dragging this old boy around who was riddled with dementia and demanding that he got his "entitlement". | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:11 - Nov 24 with 541 views | Demitrius |
"What on earth will good old Nigel say?"
I haven't read their manifesto in any great detail as we are years away from an election and things may change significantly between now and then, but...I think I'm right in saying they want to encourage working taxpayers to have more kids and incentivise it. I know Rupert Lowe is very vocal on this and was when he was still in the party.
Most folk are morally and financially responsible and live within their means, sadly with the cost of childcare over the last few decades it's prohibitive to have more than 1 or 2 kids. When our two were little we were paying significantly more for childcare than our mortgage. It does make you question why you bother when the benefits brigade are firing out five-a-side teams of incorrigible, dragged up crotch-goblins that are unlikely to make any meaningful long term contribution to society themselves, likely repeating the same pattern of benefits dependency and getting rewarded for it.
You can make all the socio-economic excuses you like for them but at the end of the day we have created a stratum of people in this country who are wilfully thick, feckless and lazy but with just enough knowledge to play the system like the cash cow it is.
[Post edited 24 Nov 11:43]
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| “Cunnilingus and Psychiatry brought us to this …” |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:51 - Nov 24 with 526 views | onehunglow |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:11 - Nov 24 by Demitrius |
"What on earth will good old Nigel say?"
I haven't read their manifesto in any great detail as we are years away from an election and things may change significantly between now and then, but...I think I'm right in saying they want to encourage working taxpayers to have more kids and incentivise it. I know Rupert Lowe is very vocal on this and was when he was still in the party.
Most folk are morally and financially responsible and live within their means, sadly with the cost of childcare over the last few decades it's prohibitive to have more than 1 or 2 kids. When our two were little we were paying significantly more for childcare than our mortgage. It does make you question why you bother when the benefits brigade are firing out five-a-side teams of incorrigible, dragged up crotch-goblins that are unlikely to make any meaningful long term contribution to society themselves, likely repeating the same pattern of benefits dependency and getting rewarded for it.
You can make all the socio-economic excuses you like for them but at the end of the day we have created a stratum of people in this country who are wilfully thick, feckless and lazy but with just enough knowledge to play the system like the cash cow it is.
[Post edited 24 Nov 11:43]
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Words that will make real socialists and the more caring of our society recoil in horror
You are of course absolutely correct
What country ensures the lazy and won’t be educated are looked after by those who have worked
We are utterly sick
No point in self provision now
This is the worst government in my lifetime | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 13:47 - Nov 24 with 486 views | raynor94 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 11:11 - Nov 24 by Demitrius |
"What on earth will good old Nigel say?"
I haven't read their manifesto in any great detail as we are years away from an election and things may change significantly between now and then, but...I think I'm right in saying they want to encourage working taxpayers to have more kids and incentivise it. I know Rupert Lowe is very vocal on this and was when he was still in the party.
Most folk are morally and financially responsible and live within their means, sadly with the cost of childcare over the last few decades it's prohibitive to have more than 1 or 2 kids. When our two were little we were paying significantly more for childcare than our mortgage. It does make you question why you bother when the benefits brigade are firing out five-a-side teams of incorrigible, dragged up crotch-goblins that are unlikely to make any meaningful long term contribution to society themselves, likely repeating the same pattern of benefits dependency and getting rewarded for it.
You can make all the socio-economic excuses you like for them but at the end of the day we have created a stratum of people in this country who are wilfully thick, feckless and lazy but with just enough knowledge to play the system like the cash cow it is.
[Post edited 24 Nov 11:43]
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Excellent post couldn't agree more, the scrapping of the 2 child benefit is madness if you want a large family be prepared to pay for it
There are far to many news items these days of single parents with multiple children complaining they are struggling the left wing backbenchers of the Labour Party are controlling it Starmer is just a stooge |  |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:13 - Nov 24 with 471 views | Dr_Winston |
Dale Vince wants to pay more tax.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2wlznd33wo
What he, and the article neglects to mention, is that the HMRC welcomes voluntary donations of tax. He can pay as much extra tax as he wants. The problem is that he seems to think that everyone else should as well.
If he's not doing it voluntarily he's a hypocrite, especially considering how much of his business depends on green subsidies. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 22:10 - Nov 24 with 386 views | Demitrius |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 13:47 - Nov 24 by raynor94 |
Excellent post couldn't agree more, the scrapping of the 2 child benefit is madness if you want a large family be prepared to pay for it
There are far to many news items these days of single parents with multiple children complaining they are struggling the left wing backbenchers of the Labour Party are controlling it Starmer is just a stooge |
We had our family and took the hits before 2017.
It stuck in the craw then, and it will stick in the craw for many now...
Reeves is clearly pandering to a demographic that in modernity conquers by the belly rather than the sword and will vote for them...
Meanwhile we are paying taxes to be replaced.
It's treasonous... | |
| “Cunnilingus and Psychiatry brought us to this …” |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:12 - Nov 25 with 320 views | AnotherJohn |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 22:10 - Nov 24 by Demitrius |
We had our family and took the hits before 2017.
It stuck in the craw then, and it will stick in the craw for many now...
Reeves is clearly pandering to a demographic that in modernity conquers by the belly rather than the sword and will vote for them...
Meanwhile we are paying taxes to be replaced.
It's treasonous... |
Some interesting comments about the two child cap in this thread. I feel torn on the issue. On the one hand, it is essential to control welfare spending and stop non-workers thinking that having 4 or 5 kids is the ticket to a comfortable life on benefits, but on the other hand the low birth rate among the long-term resident working population provides cover for unsustainable and damaging levels of immigration. Some form of targeted help, perhaps along the lines suggested by the good doctor seems attractive, but would need to be carefully designed to avoid claims of discrimination. I also wonder if a small change to 3 child cap, together with additional help with funding child care or time-limited maternal support for mothers suspending work for a couple of years would be worth considering. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:08 - Nov 25 with 279 views | Gwyn737 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 10:12 - Nov 25 by AnotherJohn |
Some interesting comments about the two child cap in this thread. I feel torn on the issue. On the one hand, it is essential to control welfare spending and stop non-workers thinking that having 4 or 5 kids is the ticket to a comfortable life on benefits, but on the other hand the low birth rate among the long-term resident working population provides cover for unsustainable and damaging levels of immigration. Some form of targeted help, perhaps along the lines suggested by the good doctor seems attractive, but would need to be carefully designed to avoid claims of discrimination. I also wonder if a small change to 3 child cap, together with additional help with funding child care or time-limited maternal support for mothers suspending work for a couple of years would be worth considering. |
Your point on childcare is really important.
We've ended up with a sitauation what the second income in a family (often the mothers) is swallowed up in childcare costs. | | | |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:15 - Nov 25 with 276 views | Dr_Winston |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:08 - Nov 25 by Gwyn737 |
Your point on childcare is really important.
We've ended up with a sitauation what the second income in a family (often the mothers) is swallowed up in childcare costs. |
That's a fair point. It's interesting to note that one parent basically works to pay for childcare costs when in years gone by they just didn't work and provided it themselves.
These days the cost of housing probably rules out that option. I'd say that might be the single biggest driver of the drop in birth rates. People can't afford to buy or rent a home to call their own and start a family. Demand has far outstripped supply, especially in some areas where 50%+ of social housing is occupied by non-UK nationals. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:54 - Nov 25 with 260 views | trampie |
It's not the amount of tax that is the problem (which is relatively low), its the cost of living. | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 13:04 - Nov 25 with 253 views | Gwyn737 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 12:15 - Nov 25 by Dr_Winston |
That's a fair point. It's interesting to note that one parent basically works to pay for childcare costs when in years gone by they just didn't work and provided it themselves.
These days the cost of housing probably rules out that option. I'd say that might be the single biggest driver of the drop in birth rates. People can't afford to buy or rent a home to call their own and start a family. Demand has far outstripped supply, especially in some areas where 50%+ of social housing is occupied by non-UK nationals. |
I always bang on about housing costs which are such a big driver of wealth inequality.
SInce housing costs have exploded, the second income has been taken up (along with childcare costs) and all that's really happened is families have lost is 40 hours of time a week.
At the other end you've got pensioners who have 'benefitted' in house price rises living in assets the younger generation can't afford, while still having to struggle with paying for the basics as they have little disposable income.
I'm coming round to the Tories idea of abolishing stamp duty... I just need to know where the shortfall will come from.
As an aside I thing the removal of the 2 child benefit cap would be a fantastic thing. [Post edited 25 Nov 13:08]
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:51 - Nov 25 with 233 views | raynor94 |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 13:04 - Nov 25 by Gwyn737 |
I always bang on about housing costs which are such a big driver of wealth inequality.
SInce housing costs have exploded, the second income has been taken up (along with childcare costs) and all that's really happened is families have lost is 40 hours of time a week.
At the other end you've got pensioners who have 'benefitted' in house price rises living in assets the younger generation can't afford, while still having to struggle with paying for the basics as they have little disposable income.
I'm coming round to the Tories idea of abolishing stamp duty... I just need to know where the shortfall will come from.
As an aside I thing the removal of the 2 child benefit cap would be a fantastic thing. [Post edited 25 Nov 13:08]
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You were going well up to the last paragraph yes there are hardworking people with more than 2 children but the majority to benefit from this are the feckless and work shy who have no intention of working and will make them less inclined to look for work benefits pay more than minimum wage | |
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| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 15:09 - Nov 25 with 217 views | controversial_jack |
| Increase tax, cut spending or borrow on 14:51 - Nov 25 by raynor94 |
You were going well up to the last paragraph yes there are hardworking people with more than 2 children but the majority to benefit from this are the feckless and work shy who have no intention of working and will make them less inclined to look for work benefits pay more than minimum wage |
We were doing well until your simplistic thatcherite explanation | | | |
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