| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? 16:19 - Dec 11 with 4354 views | TacticalR |
Perhaps the question has already been asked, or asked in a different form, but one thing I have been wondering is, has the strategy that's been pursued actually been the strategy that the club wanted?
At one level the answer seems an obvious 'Yes', because Warnock behaved in a similar manner to Hughes, buying from other Premiership clubs, implying that the strategy since promotion has been to bring in 'Premiership quality' players.
But were the players they got the ones they wanted? Warnock always used to talk about 'bread-and-butter' players, so was Barton, who had been languishing in Newcastle reserves, really his type of player?
And did Hughes really want so many older players when there was such a risk of them getting injured?
Reading, Southampton and Norwich seem to be able to do more with less, but all those teams have an established infrastructure and have been in the Premiership much more recently than us. They also don't face the same competition as us in their catchment areas. If they are relegated they do not face the competition from local teams for support we do. And in the case of Southampton we know that they spent more than us in the summer.
So are there other factors at play? Is it much harder to attract players when the club has only just arrived in the Premiership? Was the fact that Danny Graham and Routledge didn't come to QPR solely because of Briatore and Ecclestone's control of the purse strings, or concern over the volatility of the club? And if they are all 'mercenaries' do they care about such things?
Was it considered too risky to try and develop players from the lower leagues? How easy is it to get Championship teams to part with their 'crown jewels', especially if they have a serious chance of promotion?
To sum up, was ours really a strategy of choice or a strategy of desperation? |  |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:31 - Dec 11 with 2805 views | A40Bosh |
A misguided, short term strategy, borne out of desperation, as they believed they needed the guarantee of the mega bucks promised by the new TV deal to short cut the traditional growth period from a lower league club into an established premier league outfit.
They came and invested and then realised that in this game if the business is going to survive then its income must exceed the outgoings and having an 18K capacity stadium brings in jack.
Survive, get the big bucks in, build a new stadium with multiple use outside of the limited income that 19 - 21 games (i've allowed an additional one game each for the two domestic cups!) brings and then start trying to make a profit.
But this "business" is football and it does not work like that as we all know.
What do they say about the definition of insanity? something about repeating the same actions expecting a different outcome.
Harry has been warned!
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:42 - Dec 11 with 2780 views | DesertBoot |
New training facilities and stadium plans are all well and good, but TF's apparent adoration for Mark Hughes has put us in big trouble where it matters.
It seems to have been all about "now" on the pitch and buying so called proven Premiership players fitted that category very nicely.
Granero, Cesar and Hoilett excited me but AJ and Zamora came with alarm bells ringing along with Bosingwa (who has been rubbish for two seasons) and Park (when did Fergie ever let a good one go).
Admire and be thankful for all TF has done but the faith put in Hughes and his mate Kia could see us implode. |  |
| Wish I could be like David Watts |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:48 - Dec 11 with 2776 views | A40Bosh |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:42 - Dec 11 by DesertBoot |
New training facilities and stadium plans are all well and good, but TF's apparent adoration for Mark Hughes has put us in big trouble where it matters.
It seems to have been all about "now" on the pitch and buying so called proven Premiership players fitted that category very nicely.
Granero, Cesar and Hoilett excited me but AJ and Zamora came with alarm bells ringing along with Bosingwa (who has been rubbish for two seasons) and Park (when did Fergie ever let a good one go).
Admire and be thankful for all TF has done but the faith put in Hughes and his mate Kia could see us implode. |
I dont buy this adoration of Mark Hughes slur on TF.
Ok, in hindsight perhaps naive, but for trying to hang on to a coach to allow him time to turn it around and try and bring managerial stability to the club then he was going to be damned if he did stick by him and damned if he didn't. | |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:51 - Dec 11 with 2767 views | TacticalR |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:48 - Dec 11 by A40Bosh |
I dont buy this adoration of Mark Hughes slur on TF.
Ok, in hindsight perhaps naive, but for trying to hang on to a coach to allow him time to turn it around and try and bring managerial stability to the club then he was going to be damned if he did stick by him and damned if he didn't. |
There's also the question of why the bad buys started prior to MH, under Warnock. | |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:55 - Dec 11 with 2755 views | TacticalR |
Another question...
Is it even possible to buy a good player from a big club, especially when the big clubs can afford to stockpile good players in the reserves, and really only want to get rid of the dross? | |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 with 2743 views | Northernr |
For Warnock, I think the strategy was one of desperation. Immediately after promotion we bid for Graham and it was pretty clear he wanted Routledge and Naughton as well, and Traore I think. That's much more Norwich/Swansea type strategy - in fact three of those players went to those clubs - and would have suited us much better. They would have added quality to our Championship team where it was required without introducing a load of massive high earners to the squad. That was the last time we actually had the right strategy but unfortunately the takeover etc meant no money was released and they all went elsewhere.
Warnock's strategy then turned into one where he knew he was short in a few areas, but had no money to do anything about it, so he had to scrabble around for people like Campbell, Bothroyd, Gabbidon, Perone etc.
Then when the takeover did go through it had happened so late, and the opening game of the season had gone so badly, that I think there was an air of panic about it all. It became a seller's market because they knew we were flush with cash and desperate, so suddenly clubs found a way to offload players they were desperate to be rid of. We took players that had something wrong with them, and we paid over the odds to get the deals done quickly, which meant we suddenly had half a squad that had worked hard to get us there earning X, and half a squad of players being vastly overpaid on y for what they were actually capable of delivering.
Hughes' strategy initially seemed to be about adding physical presense and speed to the team - Zamora, Cisse, Onuoha, Diakite, Taiwo in the intial intake are all big powerful lads. That suggested his strategy was very much to mould us on the Blackburn team he had previously, which would have been no bad thing really.
His strategy in the summer seemed to be fairly arrogant, in that he felt we'd arrived and consolidated in the Premier League and therefore had the base to add tippy tappy players used to winning things at quality clubs. He was miguided in this because we were lucky to stay up this season and probably should have been sticking to the physical, difficult to play against, get to 42 points strategy first and foremost.
When things clearly weren't going well at the end of pre-season (we were outplayed in both German friendlies) and the opening games of the season he, like Warnock, panicked and spent over the odds on big name players which further divided the squad.
Running themes in this:
1 - Both managers, at times, totally overestimated how many players we actually needed to buy. Zamora instead of Helguson, Gabbidon instead of Gorkss, Granero instead of Faurlin, Green instead of Kenny, Cesar instead of Green and so on were transfers we simply didn't need to make. Let's not forget that Warnock had Jason Puncheon waiting to sign a loan deal in case the SWP fell through, then when SWP did go through he signed Puncheon anyway because he felt bad for him waiting around all day - his words not mine. I think we've made 28 signings in the last four transfer windows, when really we needed six to eight players.
2 - Twice in three transfer windows we've panicked, and gone looking for short term quick fixes to perceived problems, rather than simply sticking to a long term plan. This has lumbered us with players we didn't do due diligence on who have proved to be problems for us - Barton, SWP - players we simply didn't need at all - see above - and players we've paid over the odds for wages wise splitting the squad. Wigan were tracking Kone for three years before they signed him - it means they can wait for the price and circumstances to suit them. By panicking we were a buyer in a seller's market. Now we're going to have to get rid of them all pretty quickly, becoming a seller in a buyer's market. Not good on either count because you get fcked financially.
3 - Both managers, but particularly Hughes, underestimated what was already at the club, and the value of team spirit and hard work.
The question is, what's the strategy now?
I wrote an article prior to Redknapp's appointment saying I was wary of simply having another coronation of a manager who's meant to be the saviour and I stand by it. At the risk of being branded defeatist or a surrender monkey, I personally think that each day that goes by with us persisting with the idea that we can actually survive this season is a day wasted from the time it's going to take us to recover from all of the above.
When Derby were in this position they too sacked the manager and made a load of January signings to try and stay up, then a load more summer signings under the new manager to try and get back up. They still haven't recovered from it now. When Nigel Clough took over he had a squad of 46 professionals I think - so many he had to put on two training sessions a day and split them into two groups. He's spent the last three years using each transfer window to try and get the number and the wage bill down, rather than building his own team, and God it shows.
If we don't find two wins from the next four games I think there's an argument for surrendering and starting to look forward now. The transfer window system means it can take years and years to shift the mistakes we've made. For instance, if we can get an offer this January for Cesar and Green perhaps we should accept both. It will only leave us with Murphy and Cerny for the rest of this season, but this season has gone. Green and Cesar will be far too expensive in the division below so if we can get rid of them now then stuff this season.
By adding another four or five players this January in some ill-fated attempt to escape we're simply creating further problems for ourself in the summer when we're going to need to get rid of 10-20 high earners, bring in 10-12 decent Championship players, and start the process of trying to get back before the parachute payments end.
Like I say if we don't win any of the next four it might well be worth starting that process now - including a discussion about whether Redknapp is the manager to do that. He's well capable, as he showed at Portsmouth, but can he be arsd at this stage of his career?
Still think we should have gone with a forward thinking, younger manager like Mackay or Poyet rather than a short term attempt to save the unsaveable.
Fck I've gone off on one there. Still, that's the match preview intro written I guess! [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:40 - Dec 11 with 2691 views | Jamie |
Advance planning for the Championship is 100% the way we need to be looking. As shown yesterday, if we add another 4 points before January we will have a 10% chance of survival.
Anyone who believes for one second though that Redknapp won't be spending big in January is kidding themselves. As already pointed out, Keane can join us for 4 weeks in which we play Chelsea, City, WH, Spurs. What's the point.
Dawson has struggled now for 2/3 years with injuries. When finally given a chance by AVB, he promptly went off injured. In 3 weeks he will be a qpr player on close to 6 figures a week. Lunacy. |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:50 - Dec 11 with 2675 views | TacticalR |
Wow! NorthernR, it sounds like you have been thinking about this for a long, long time. Your comments are probably going to lead to a lot of soul-searching on LFW.
In regard to this season and last, I also think it has been a strategy of desperation rather than choice. What's bothered me is that a lot of commentators have talked about it, and continue to talk about it *as if it were a strategy of choice*.
Reading your comments, it's easy to understand why Clint Hill is so exasperated with all the incoming players. And perhaps the mystery of why we seem to have to buy three players to get one good one.
Btw, I am not sure that absolutely everything was based on replacing players for no good reason. For example, there was a general sense that Paddy Kenny didn't seem right the whole season (and even Swansea had replaced their keeper on promotion), although buying two keepers was...unfortunate. But as you say, in many cases there is a big question mark over whether what we've got is any better than what we had.
For the future strategy...there is defeatism and there is defeatism. When you are outnumbered in battle and defeat looms, there is nothing wrong with conserving your forces for future battles. | |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 18:46 - Dec 11 with 2641 views | THEBUSH |
I think the clubs strategy changed when TF bought the majority shares from Tango and Cash, as opposed to the Mittals.
As far I know the Mittals weren't prepared to pay the asking price that Bernie boy wanted.
Now this is just my opinion, but I think if the Mittals had bought the controlling interest in the club, we would have spent much more prudently and perhaps been more successful. |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 18:54 - Dec 11 with 2628 views | Match82 |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:40 - Dec 11 by Jamie |
Advance planning for the Championship is 100% the way we need to be looking. As shown yesterday, if we add another 4 points before January we will have a 10% chance of survival.
Anyone who believes for one second though that Redknapp won't be spending big in January is kidding themselves. As already pointed out, Keane can join us for 4 weeks in which we play Chelsea, City, WH, Spurs. What's the point.
Dawson has struggled now for 2/3 years with injuries. When finally given a chance by AVB, he promptly went off injured. In 3 weeks he will be a qpr player on close to 6 figures a week. Lunacy. |
Are you basing that on the number of team who have stayed up based on that many points in the past? Bit misleading given that each one of those situations is different, and I doubt that there's been a team as (theoretically) talented as ours.
Given the position that we find ourselves in, I think there is a very good chance that we'll be relegated. However, if I had to pick any squad, and manager, currently in the bottom 6 to pick up 30 points from 20 games, it would be ours.
We're only 9 points away from 15th. That's the same as the gap between Newcastle and WBA, and you wouldn't put your house on WBA finishing above Newcastle.
I'm not done believing yet. |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:25 - Dec 11 with 2591 views | Northernr |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 18:54 - Dec 11 by Match82 |
Are you basing that on the number of team who have stayed up based on that many points in the past? Bit misleading given that each one of those situations is different, and I doubt that there's been a team as (theoretically) talented as ours.
Given the position that we find ourselves in, I think there is a very good chance that we'll be relegated. However, if I had to pick any squad, and manager, currently in the bottom 6 to pick up 30 points from 20 games, it would be ours.
We're only 9 points away from 15th. That's the same as the gap between Newcastle and WBA, and you wouldn't put your house on WBA finishing above Newcastle.
I'm not done believing yet. |
I'm genuinely interested; what have you seen post spurs away to suggest we're capable of gettin 9 points at all, never mind overhauling that gap? | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:44 - Dec 11 with 2561 views | wood_hoop |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 16:42 - Dec 11 by DesertBoot |
New training facilities and stadium plans are all well and good, but TF's apparent adoration for Mark Hughes has put us in big trouble where it matters.
It seems to have been all about "now" on the pitch and buying so called proven Premiership players fitted that category very nicely.
Granero, Cesar and Hoilett excited me but AJ and Zamora came with alarm bells ringing along with Bosingwa (who has been rubbish for two seasons) and Park (when did Fergie ever let a good one go).
Admire and be thankful for all TF has done but the faith put in Hughes and his mate Kia could see us implode. |
You have to wonder what MH did to entice TF so much, Hughes past record was ok but flaws were well known of and enough to warrant more than a second glance.
MH to me had no real strategy, he was extremely lucky to keep us in the Prem and TF seemed to let this cloud his judgement when it came to opening the cheque book keeping him in place for as long as he did.
TF has also scored an absolute blank when it has come to putting our club in a position of being able to cope with relegation, this can be put down to his ignorance of knowing bugger all about the game and relying on others to take major decisions on his behalf, sorry don't buy into the hero worship of TF, he chose Hughes, he allowed his random spending without question, he grasped at straws allowing Rednapp take over the reins.
Leadership in a company comes from the very top, it also takes vision not blind faith in those directly beneath you, TF has shown so far that he dosn't possses the skills to run a football club, his strategy seems to throw bundles of money at solving problems without any real idea of why the manager is going down a certain route.
HR is in a win win situation, why is he going to break his balls with the bunch of misfits he has taken over, a few of his 'old reliables may well get a nice little pension once the transfer window opens and if relegated he won't really take any blame as we were a 'basket case' when he took over.
TF has fallen into the biggest suckers game in the world, Premiership Chairman who think that throwing just money into the pot can bring success, one day there may be a Chairman that comes into QPR that actually uses his own brain and carefully looks at the make up of the club, figures out there is only one M.Utd, one Arsenal , one Liverpool, just like there is only one QPR, who are not and never will be that 'sleeping giant' just waiting to conquer the world.
TF bought in to make money, that is his strategy, he is now walking a tightrope to protect his investment, maybe he will get lucky but I think that if relegated and not promoted the following season TF will be on his merry way, no doubt lumbering the club with big debts like others in the past.
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:49 - Dec 11 with 2549 views | Match82 |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:25 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
I'm genuinely interested; what have you seen post spurs away to suggest we're capable of gettin 9 points at all, never mind overhauling that gap? |
Blind faith. Isn't that still fashionable?
I don't think anyone denies we have talented players, just don't give 100% or play as a team. I realize that both of those are obviously massive issues which if unaddressed will see us sink like a stone. However, we now have a new manager who has shown improvement in that area over the last 3 games and if that continues then things are looking up. | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:50 - Dec 11 with 2547 views | THEBUSH |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:44 - Dec 11 by wood_hoop |
You have to wonder what MH did to entice TF so much, Hughes past record was ok but flaws were well known of and enough to warrant more than a second glance.
MH to me had no real strategy, he was extremely lucky to keep us in the Prem and TF seemed to let this cloud his judgement when it came to opening the cheque book keeping him in place for as long as he did.
TF has also scored an absolute blank when it has come to putting our club in a position of being able to cope with relegation, this can be put down to his ignorance of knowing bugger all about the game and relying on others to take major decisions on his behalf, sorry don't buy into the hero worship of TF, he chose Hughes, he allowed his random spending without question, he grasped at straws allowing Rednapp take over the reins.
Leadership in a company comes from the very top, it also takes vision not blind faith in those directly beneath you, TF has shown so far that he dosn't possses the skills to run a football club, his strategy seems to throw bundles of money at solving problems without any real idea of why the manager is going down a certain route.
HR is in a win win situation, why is he going to break his balls with the bunch of misfits he has taken over, a few of his 'old reliables may well get a nice little pension once the transfer window opens and if relegated he won't really take any blame as we were a 'basket case' when he took over.
TF has fallen into the biggest suckers game in the world, Premiership Chairman who think that throwing just money into the pot can bring success, one day there may be a Chairman that comes into QPR that actually uses his own brain and carefully looks at the make up of the club, figures out there is only one M.Utd, one Arsenal , one Liverpool, just like there is only one QPR, who are not and never will be that 'sleeping giant' just waiting to conquer the world.
TF bought in to make money, that is his strategy, he is now walking a tightrope to protect his investment, maybe he will get lucky but I think that if relegated and not promoted the following season TF will be on his merry way, no doubt lumbering the club with big debts like others in the past.
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If you were TF who would you have brought in as manager, instead of MH ? | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:56 - Dec 11 with 2534 views | TGRRRSSS |
Trouble is the club kept going for older epxeirenced players often with injury problems.
Not sure who was really out there at the time MH was given the job, BUT the fact is he was headhunted as the only man before NW was sacked, which was a disaster in itself him interviewing us and checking our ambition. |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 20:14 - Dec 11 with 2527 views | wood_hoop |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:50 - Dec 11 by THEBUSH |
If you were TF who would you have brought in as manager, instead of MH ? |
I would have liked Hougton or Martinez, even had a look in the lower divisions, the money spent on Hughes and his team could have maybe enticed virtually anyone who wasn't a 'name' and left change.
But then maybe even if I had the money to burn I wouldn't buy into football the way it is set up now, I know for sure though that no manager I employed would have licence to spend money on players and their salaries without some input from myself.
TF has taken a big risk, in business its all about risks, his is failing and mostly because he allowed the situation to develop where his input has been neglible or poor. | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 20:16 - Dec 11 with 2522 views | derbyhoop |
In summary, too much short termism.
Stay in the Premiership - buy PL players, but don't worry about 3 years on.
The improvements behind the scenes may pay off. But we've made most of the investment and won't see a return for 3-5 years.
Could we do the same with the playing squad? Only if we accept Clive's philosophy that we are going down and should start trimming the squad ASAP. Hope we can get shot of the big earners, and build a promotion winning team before the parachute payments run out.
Frankly, I think that's exactly what we should do. It will take a miracle to stay up from our current position. I'm far from convinced, given the approach we've taken to the last 3 transfer windows, that we could get back up within 4 years. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 20:32 - Dec 11 with 2508 views | THEBUSH |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 20:14 - Dec 11 by wood_hoop |
I would have liked Hougton or Martinez, even had a look in the lower divisions, the money spent on Hughes and his team could have maybe enticed virtually anyone who wasn't a 'name' and left change.
But then maybe even if I had the money to burn I wouldn't buy into football the way it is set up now, I know for sure though that no manager I employed would have licence to spend money on players and their salaries without some input from myself.
TF has taken a big risk, in business its all about risks, his is failing and mostly because he allowed the situation to develop where his input has been neglible or poor. |
Good call with Chris Hughton, although don't think Martinez would have been available.
For me the criticism regarding TF has come with hindsight, most people were delighted when he became our chairman, I'm glad he's still here. | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 21:58 - Dec 11 with 2484 views | Juzzie |
Strategy = thinking about tomorrow rather than focussing on today
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 23:25 - Dec 11 with 2446 views | baz_qpr |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
For Warnock, I think the strategy was one of desperation. Immediately after promotion we bid for Graham and it was pretty clear he wanted Routledge and Naughton as well, and Traore I think. That's much more Norwich/Swansea type strategy - in fact three of those players went to those clubs - and would have suited us much better. They would have added quality to our Championship team where it was required without introducing a load of massive high earners to the squad. That was the last time we actually had the right strategy but unfortunately the takeover etc meant no money was released and they all went elsewhere.
Warnock's strategy then turned into one where he knew he was short in a few areas, but had no money to do anything about it, so he had to scrabble around for people like Campbell, Bothroyd, Gabbidon, Perone etc.
Then when the takeover did go through it had happened so late, and the opening game of the season had gone so badly, that I think there was an air of panic about it all. It became a seller's market because they knew we were flush with cash and desperate, so suddenly clubs found a way to offload players they were desperate to be rid of. We took players that had something wrong with them, and we paid over the odds to get the deals done quickly, which meant we suddenly had half a squad that had worked hard to get us there earning X, and half a squad of players being vastly overpaid on y for what they were actually capable of delivering.
Hughes' strategy initially seemed to be about adding physical presense and speed to the team - Zamora, Cisse, Onuoha, Diakite, Taiwo in the intial intake are all big powerful lads. That suggested his strategy was very much to mould us on the Blackburn team he had previously, which would have been no bad thing really.
His strategy in the summer seemed to be fairly arrogant, in that he felt we'd arrived and consolidated in the Premier League and therefore had the base to add tippy tappy players used to winning things at quality clubs. He was miguided in this because we were lucky to stay up this season and probably should have been sticking to the physical, difficult to play against, get to 42 points strategy first and foremost.
When things clearly weren't going well at the end of pre-season (we were outplayed in both German friendlies) and the opening games of the season he, like Warnock, panicked and spent over the odds on big name players which further divided the squad.
Running themes in this:
1 - Both managers, at times, totally overestimated how many players we actually needed to buy. Zamora instead of Helguson, Gabbidon instead of Gorkss, Granero instead of Faurlin, Green instead of Kenny, Cesar instead of Green and so on were transfers we simply didn't need to make. Let's not forget that Warnock had Jason Puncheon waiting to sign a loan deal in case the SWP fell through, then when SWP did go through he signed Puncheon anyway because he felt bad for him waiting around all day - his words not mine. I think we've made 28 signings in the last four transfer windows, when really we needed six to eight players.
2 - Twice in three transfer windows we've panicked, and gone looking for short term quick fixes to perceived problems, rather than simply sticking to a long term plan. This has lumbered us with players we didn't do due diligence on who have proved to be problems for us - Barton, SWP - players we simply didn't need at all - see above - and players we've paid over the odds for wages wise splitting the squad. Wigan were tracking Kone for three years before they signed him - it means they can wait for the price and circumstances to suit them. By panicking we were a buyer in a seller's market. Now we're going to have to get rid of them all pretty quickly, becoming a seller in a buyer's market. Not good on either count because you get fcked financially.
3 - Both managers, but particularly Hughes, underestimated what was already at the club, and the value of team spirit and hard work.
The question is, what's the strategy now?
I wrote an article prior to Redknapp's appointment saying I was wary of simply having another coronation of a manager who's meant to be the saviour and I stand by it. At the risk of being branded defeatist or a surrender monkey, I personally think that each day that goes by with us persisting with the idea that we can actually survive this season is a day wasted from the time it's going to take us to recover from all of the above.
When Derby were in this position they too sacked the manager and made a load of January signings to try and stay up, then a load more summer signings under the new manager to try and get back up. They still haven't recovered from it now. When Nigel Clough took over he had a squad of 46 professionals I think - so many he had to put on two training sessions a day and split them into two groups. He's spent the last three years using each transfer window to try and get the number and the wage bill down, rather than building his own team, and God it shows.
If we don't find two wins from the next four games I think there's an argument for surrendering and starting to look forward now. The transfer window system means it can take years and years to shift the mistakes we've made. For instance, if we can get an offer this January for Cesar and Green perhaps we should accept both. It will only leave us with Murphy and Cerny for the rest of this season, but this season has gone. Green and Cesar will be far too expensive in the division below so if we can get rid of them now then stuff this season.
By adding another four or five players this January in some ill-fated attempt to escape we're simply creating further problems for ourself in the summer when we're going to need to get rid of 10-20 high earners, bring in 10-12 decent Championship players, and start the process of trying to get back before the parachute payments end.
Like I say if we don't win any of the next four it might well be worth starting that process now - including a discussion about whether Redknapp is the manager to do that. He's well capable, as he showed at Portsmouth, but can he be arsd at this stage of his career?
Still think we should have gone with a forward thinking, younger manager like Mackay or Poyet rather than a short term attempt to save the unsaveable.
Fck I've gone off on one there. Still, that's the match preview intro written I guess! [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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I'm not so sure about how much needs trimming, very very few sides in recent history who have gone in for letting go much of their high earners have returned at the first time of asking. Quite often the only ones they can trim are the ones they really need to keep. IMHO for example I think Cisse would tear up the championship, given where he is in his contract I would keep him, I'd rather get rid of Zamora, but I know out of those two which will be the hardest to shift and who is more likely to stay. So the sell Green, sell Cesar tactic I think is wrong, I think out of the two Cesar is most likely to stay, he wants to live in London and go into coaching, worth taking a one year hit on.
IMHO what we need to do is deal with the areas that are problematic, and continue trying to build a team retaining as much as possible of the good we have or what will be good enough in the championship and getting rid of the excess as and when we can. Of course we should be buying from lower down the leagues, but quality for those key defensive and centre forward positions.
We have to give it at least a season with the parachute money of going for it, before we hit the drastic slash and burn button |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:03 - Dec 12 with 2391 views | windsorhoop |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
For Warnock, I think the strategy was one of desperation. Immediately after promotion we bid for Graham and it was pretty clear he wanted Routledge and Naughton as well, and Traore I think. That's much more Norwich/Swansea type strategy - in fact three of those players went to those clubs - and would have suited us much better. They would have added quality to our Championship team where it was required without introducing a load of massive high earners to the squad. That was the last time we actually had the right strategy but unfortunately the takeover etc meant no money was released and they all went elsewhere.
Warnock's strategy then turned into one where he knew he was short in a few areas, but had no money to do anything about it, so he had to scrabble around for people like Campbell, Bothroyd, Gabbidon, Perone etc.
Then when the takeover did go through it had happened so late, and the opening game of the season had gone so badly, that I think there was an air of panic about it all. It became a seller's market because they knew we were flush with cash and desperate, so suddenly clubs found a way to offload players they were desperate to be rid of. We took players that had something wrong with them, and we paid over the odds to get the deals done quickly, which meant we suddenly had half a squad that had worked hard to get us there earning X, and half a squad of players being vastly overpaid on y for what they were actually capable of delivering.
Hughes' strategy initially seemed to be about adding physical presense and speed to the team - Zamora, Cisse, Onuoha, Diakite, Taiwo in the intial intake are all big powerful lads. That suggested his strategy was very much to mould us on the Blackburn team he had previously, which would have been no bad thing really.
His strategy in the summer seemed to be fairly arrogant, in that he felt we'd arrived and consolidated in the Premier League and therefore had the base to add tippy tappy players used to winning things at quality clubs. He was miguided in this because we were lucky to stay up this season and probably should have been sticking to the physical, difficult to play against, get to 42 points strategy first and foremost.
When things clearly weren't going well at the end of pre-season (we were outplayed in both German friendlies) and the opening games of the season he, like Warnock, panicked and spent over the odds on big name players which further divided the squad.
Running themes in this:
1 - Both managers, at times, totally overestimated how many players we actually needed to buy. Zamora instead of Helguson, Gabbidon instead of Gorkss, Granero instead of Faurlin, Green instead of Kenny, Cesar instead of Green and so on were transfers we simply didn't need to make. Let's not forget that Warnock had Jason Puncheon waiting to sign a loan deal in case the SWP fell through, then when SWP did go through he signed Puncheon anyway because he felt bad for him waiting around all day - his words not mine. I think we've made 28 signings in the last four transfer windows, when really we needed six to eight players.
2 - Twice in three transfer windows we've panicked, and gone looking for short term quick fixes to perceived problems, rather than simply sticking to a long term plan. This has lumbered us with players we didn't do due diligence on who have proved to be problems for us - Barton, SWP - players we simply didn't need at all - see above - and players we've paid over the odds for wages wise splitting the squad. Wigan were tracking Kone for three years before they signed him - it means they can wait for the price and circumstances to suit them. By panicking we were a buyer in a seller's market. Now we're going to have to get rid of them all pretty quickly, becoming a seller in a buyer's market. Not good on either count because you get fcked financially.
3 - Both managers, but particularly Hughes, underestimated what was already at the club, and the value of team spirit and hard work.
The question is, what's the strategy now?
I wrote an article prior to Redknapp's appointment saying I was wary of simply having another coronation of a manager who's meant to be the saviour and I stand by it. At the risk of being branded defeatist or a surrender monkey, I personally think that each day that goes by with us persisting with the idea that we can actually survive this season is a day wasted from the time it's going to take us to recover from all of the above.
When Derby were in this position they too sacked the manager and made a load of January signings to try and stay up, then a load more summer signings under the new manager to try and get back up. They still haven't recovered from it now. When Nigel Clough took over he had a squad of 46 professionals I think - so many he had to put on two training sessions a day and split them into two groups. He's spent the last three years using each transfer window to try and get the number and the wage bill down, rather than building his own team, and God it shows.
If we don't find two wins from the next four games I think there's an argument for surrendering and starting to look forward now. The transfer window system means it can take years and years to shift the mistakes we've made. For instance, if we can get an offer this January for Cesar and Green perhaps we should accept both. It will only leave us with Murphy and Cerny for the rest of this season, but this season has gone. Green and Cesar will be far too expensive in the division below so if we can get rid of them now then stuff this season.
By adding another four or five players this January in some ill-fated attempt to escape we're simply creating further problems for ourself in the summer when we're going to need to get rid of 10-20 high earners, bring in 10-12 decent Championship players, and start the process of trying to get back before the parachute payments end.
Like I say if we don't win any of the next four it might well be worth starting that process now - including a discussion about whether Redknapp is the manager to do that. He's well capable, as he showed at Portsmouth, but can he be arsd at this stage of his career?
Still think we should have gone with a forward thinking, younger manager like Mackay or Poyet rather than a short term attempt to save the unsaveable.
Fck I've gone off on one there. Still, that's the match preview intro written I guess! [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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I would quite like TF and the rest of the tune board members to spend a day at west brom. Up and down 5 times. But if anyone went last season and got a programme read the 8 page interview with the CEO. They track there tansfer targets over years not weeks, they always have 3 managers in there minds should a change happen.
Its how a club should be run. If they ever have a bad season and go down they will come back up or cut their cloth accordingly.
I said this when TF came in and we started panic buying. Clear our debts using the prem money don't add to it. | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:40 - Dec 12 with 2369 views | Hulahoop7 |
Inclined to agree with north. The last thing we need is to try is jump start the bus with the train hurtling down the tracks, we tried and failed to buy a finished product with MH now its time to re-assess and rebuild for a speedy return. I just hope we can offload some of the current incumbants because on current form no-one is going to be knocking on our door for them. |  | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 09:49 - Dec 12 with 2364 views | SomersetHoops |
Hughes was supposed to be working for the long term, which he did in terms of staffing us up to the hilt, but absolutely did not on the playing side. Even the least football savvy of us questioned the addition of so many past it Hughes 'old boys' brought to our club, whose deals seemed to be more beneficial to their agents than their presence (when available) was to QPR. Surely our directors should have questioned that at the time as many fans did. When it clearly wasn't working there were strong grounds for dismissing Hughes for it was not just the performances that were poor it was and still is that we now have a poor and unbalanced team that he has created.
If we are to add players to our squad in January they surely must be absolutely there ready to play in positions we need to balance the team. |  |
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| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 10:04 - Dec 12 with 2347 views | PinnerPaul |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 17:00 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
For Warnock, I think the strategy was one of desperation. Immediately after promotion we bid for Graham and it was pretty clear he wanted Routledge and Naughton as well, and Traore I think. That's much more Norwich/Swansea type strategy - in fact three of those players went to those clubs - and would have suited us much better. They would have added quality to our Championship team where it was required without introducing a load of massive high earners to the squad. That was the last time we actually had the right strategy but unfortunately the takeover etc meant no money was released and they all went elsewhere.
Warnock's strategy then turned into one where he knew he was short in a few areas, but had no money to do anything about it, so he had to scrabble around for people like Campbell, Bothroyd, Gabbidon, Perone etc.
Then when the takeover did go through it had happened so late, and the opening game of the season had gone so badly, that I think there was an air of panic about it all. It became a seller's market because they knew we were flush with cash and desperate, so suddenly clubs found a way to offload players they were desperate to be rid of. We took players that had something wrong with them, and we paid over the odds to get the deals done quickly, which meant we suddenly had half a squad that had worked hard to get us there earning X, and half a squad of players being vastly overpaid on y for what they were actually capable of delivering.
Hughes' strategy initially seemed to be about adding physical presense and speed to the team - Zamora, Cisse, Onuoha, Diakite, Taiwo in the intial intake are all big powerful lads. That suggested his strategy was very much to mould us on the Blackburn team he had previously, which would have been no bad thing really.
His strategy in the summer seemed to be fairly arrogant, in that he felt we'd arrived and consolidated in the Premier League and therefore had the base to add tippy tappy players used to winning things at quality clubs. He was miguided in this because we were lucky to stay up this season and probably should have been sticking to the physical, difficult to play against, get to 42 points strategy first and foremost.
When things clearly weren't going well at the end of pre-season (we were outplayed in both German friendlies) and the opening games of the season he, like Warnock, panicked and spent over the odds on big name players which further divided the squad.
Running themes in this:
1 - Both managers, at times, totally overestimated how many players we actually needed to buy. Zamora instead of Helguson, Gabbidon instead of Gorkss, Granero instead of Faurlin, Green instead of Kenny, Cesar instead of Green and so on were transfers we simply didn't need to make. Let's not forget that Warnock had Jason Puncheon waiting to sign a loan deal in case the SWP fell through, then when SWP did go through he signed Puncheon anyway because he felt bad for him waiting around all day - his words not mine. I think we've made 28 signings in the last four transfer windows, when really we needed six to eight players.
2 - Twice in three transfer windows we've panicked, and gone looking for short term quick fixes to perceived problems, rather than simply sticking to a long term plan. This has lumbered us with players we didn't do due diligence on who have proved to be problems for us - Barton, SWP - players we simply didn't need at all - see above - and players we've paid over the odds for wages wise splitting the squad. Wigan were tracking Kone for three years before they signed him - it means they can wait for the price and circumstances to suit them. By panicking we were a buyer in a seller's market. Now we're going to have to get rid of them all pretty quickly, becoming a seller in a buyer's market. Not good on either count because you get fcked financially.
3 - Both managers, but particularly Hughes, underestimated what was already at the club, and the value of team spirit and hard work.
The question is, what's the strategy now?
I wrote an article prior to Redknapp's appointment saying I was wary of simply having another coronation of a manager who's meant to be the saviour and I stand by it. At the risk of being branded defeatist or a surrender monkey, I personally think that each day that goes by with us persisting with the idea that we can actually survive this season is a day wasted from the time it's going to take us to recover from all of the above.
When Derby were in this position they too sacked the manager and made a load of January signings to try and stay up, then a load more summer signings under the new manager to try and get back up. They still haven't recovered from it now. When Nigel Clough took over he had a squad of 46 professionals I think - so many he had to put on two training sessions a day and split them into two groups. He's spent the last three years using each transfer window to try and get the number and the wage bill down, rather than building his own team, and God it shows.
If we don't find two wins from the next four games I think there's an argument for surrendering and starting to look forward now. The transfer window system means it can take years and years to shift the mistakes we've made. For instance, if we can get an offer this January for Cesar and Green perhaps we should accept both. It will only leave us with Murphy and Cerny for the rest of this season, but this season has gone. Green and Cesar will be far too expensive in the division below so if we can get rid of them now then stuff this season.
By adding another four or five players this January in some ill-fated attempt to escape we're simply creating further problems for ourself in the summer when we're going to need to get rid of 10-20 high earners, bring in 10-12 decent Championship players, and start the process of trying to get back before the parachute payments end.
Like I say if we don't win any of the next four it might well be worth starting that process now - including a discussion about whether Redknapp is the manager to do that. He's well capable, as he showed at Portsmouth, but can he be arsd at this stage of his career?
Still think we should have gone with a forward thinking, younger manager like Mackay or Poyet rather than a short term attempt to save the unsaveable.
Fck I've gone off on one there. Still, that's the match preview intro written I guess! [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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Can't disagree with any of that, apart from the last line "gone off on one".
I don't think you have, think it helps you don't have the images that obviously swirl around your head when you write your sometimes, IMHO, over emotive match reports!
Not being clever after the event, but I never did think, and still don't, that Harry can rescue us because he has inherited all the problems you highlight.
He can tinker, muster some sort of team spirit, organise the defence a bit better, but the underlying problems of a mismatched, in terms of ability, positions available and earnings remain | | | |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 11:00 - Dec 12 with 2315 views | PinnerPaul |
| Is the club's strategy really one it has chosen? on 19:25 - Dec 11 by Northernr |
I'm genuinely interested; what have you seen post spurs away to suggest we're capable of gettin 9 points at all, never mind overhauling that gap? |
Agree, as I keep banging on about, think the bookies still believe that our disparate collection of 'stars' is suddenly going to start winning games.
No evidence to suggest that. TBF I suppose the 16 pts from 18 at home we finished last season with makes them a little wary, but even that without actually winning some away games as well isn't going to be enough. | | | |
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