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Just ask yourselves this - if Britain had been invaded by Germany in 1948, and your grandparents' and parents' homes and land had been confiscated, and given to German-speaking Nazi sympathisers from other countries, and you had grown up in a refugee camp in Wales or the Isle of Man, and never allowed to return to the home in West London that your family legally owns, how would you feel about that?
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Show your support on 00:21 - Jul 14 with 2554 views
Pompey, I'll have a look at that link and organisation before I think about signing, but in theory I'm fully with you. Stop war? Yes. Stop the bombing and maiming of civilians in a massively crowded battery farm? Yes. Stop the illegal occupation of Palestine? Yes? Stop the Palestinian Holocaust? Absolutely.
It's reprehensible.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
The political elites in both Palestine and Israel are far too invested in the status quo to ever reach a mutually agreeable settlement. A peaceful solution - be it one, two or three state - would fatally undermine both sides' raison d'etre. Perpetuating the conflict means they remain in power and are able wield a far greater degree of control over their respective populations than would be tolerated in peacetime.
As for the wider issues I'll let Andy Williams explain the historical context.
Current location: OX10
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Show your support on 09:09 - Jul 14 with 2495 views
Show your support on 00:21 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
Pompey, I'll have a look at that link and organisation before I think about signing, but in theory I'm fully with you. Stop war? Yes. Stop the bombing and maiming of civilians in a massively crowded battery farm? Yes. Stop the illegal occupation of Palestine? Yes? Stop the Palestinian Holocaust? Absolutely.
"... and we go over now to Tim Cocking, middle-east correspondent. Tim, can you shed some light on what's happening there in Gaza?"
"Well, Hamas is a very naughty boy - Israel has told him that if doesn't stop it he'll keep getting smacked, but, so far, Hamas won't stop. Back to you".
"Thanks Tim".
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Show your support on 10:58 - Jul 14 with 2404 views
"... and we go over now to Tim Cocking, middle-east correspondent. Tim, can you shed some light on what's happening there in Gaza?"
"Well, Hamas is a very naughty boy - Israel has told him that if doesn't stop it he'll keep getting smacked, but, so far, Hamas won't stop. Back to you".
"Thanks Tim".
The whole reason the West allows Israel to act in such a manner is because of the foundation of the state of Israel, never again. Never again will Israel allow Jews to be threatened or killed without exacting a massive price.
The blockade of Gaza is an abomination, people are forced in to crowded refugee camps, to ghettos, with their freedom of movement and access to life outside "the worlds largest open prison" being severely restricted. Israel has responded to rocket attack from Hamas by using an massively disproportionate amount of force against the Palestinians. I heard a Israeli commentator stating that there was no such thing as "disproportionate force" in war, well sir, i beg to differ. Did Britain use nuclear weapons against Argentina in Falklands war? http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5075/israel_acting_disproportionately_thin
Every government is duty bound to minimise civilian lose of life, Israel for all it's press releases and assurances, simply does not take adequate steps to do this. Yes, it's all well and good rolling out a few clips from F-16s or unmanned drones showing you about to bomb a target and them some civilians coming into the picture and deciding to shoot the missile into an empty field, but the truth of the matter is that civilian casualties in Gaza are not given a very high importance rating.
Let me point out, i am not for one minute supporting Hamas or Islamic Jihad, to me they are scum, however, i feel that the actions of Israel in Gaza and the West Bank have led to a situation by which many PalestiniansI(although certainly not the majority) have shifted their support from the secular Fatah movement to Hamas and IJ. Israel needs a complete overhaul in its relationship with the Palestinians in the West Bank, accept that they cannot occupy it for ever, and take steps to curb radical settlers and begin a phased withdrawal from it. Its never going to return to pre 1967 boarders, i accept that, but Israel cannot continue to build on land that was/is indeed for a future Palestinian state.
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Show your support on 11:46 - Jul 14 with 2375 views
Granted it's an emotive word, Nelly, and I certanly used it for effect. However, there's no denying to my mind that the horrors visited upon civilians in Palestine are indiscriminate and genocidal. It constantly amazes me that the people of the West are so apathetic and disengaged on this particular conflict.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Show your support on 11:46 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
Granted it's an emotive word, Nelly, and I certanly used it for effect. However, there's no denying to my mind that the horrors visited upon civilians in Palestine are indiscriminate and genocidal. It constantly amazes me that the people of the West are so apathetic and disengaged on this particular conflict.
in regards of the OP ;
More chance of me fluffing tony blair in a menage trois with dianne abott and harriet harman, or watching 'question time' without getting shooting pains in my left arm
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 12:20]
" I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969
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Show your support on 12:33 - Jul 14 with 2323 views
More chance of me fluffing tony blair in a menage trois with dianne abott and harriet harman, or watching 'question time' without getting shooting pains in my left arm
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 12:20]
Talking of good old Tone , shouldn't he be out there as he is the "Middle east peace envoy" ( what a joke that is BTW ) , I mean he has said he is busy to answer questions about comfort to letters to his pals at the IRA , so one would assume he is out there now earning his collar trying to sort out peace
* waiting for pigs to fly over Milton Keynes we speak
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Show your support on 12:42 - Jul 14 with 2307 views
Talking of good old Tone , shouldn't he be out there as he is the "Middle east peace envoy" ( what a joke that is BTW ) , I mean he has said he is busy to answer questions about comfort to letters to his pals at the IRA , so one would assume he is out there now earning his collar trying to sort out peace
* waiting for pigs to fly over Milton Keynes we speak
fraid not parker, according to the weekend papers our tone has been spending a lot of time in albania with alistair campbell helping them prepare their case for eu membership!!.
great.
they are 116th behind the democratic republic congo !! in terms of corruption and make bulgaria and romainia look like monaco in terms of wealth.
perhaps tone thinks we need more uncontrolled un skilled immigration here.
when i look at him.... i actually think he is the devil.
albanian gangs domiciled in london trading in people trafficking and the sex trade up two percentile points .
perhaps tone can do a nixon and open up parts of nigerian boko harem to set up shop in east ham.
put me down as front and center for a spot in front of an iman who can teach me to conceal dry ice and fertilser in my pants on the old site of the percy ingles and pie and mash shop.
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 12:48]
" I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969
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Show your support on 12:57 - Jul 14 with 2135 views
fraid not parker, according to the weekend papers our tone has been spending a lot of time in albania with alistair campbell helping them prepare their case for eu membership!!.
great.
they are 116th behind the democratic republic congo !! in terms of corruption and make bulgaria and romainia look like monaco in terms of wealth.
perhaps tone thinks we need more uncontrolled un skilled immigration here.
when i look at him.... i actually think he is the devil.
albanian gangs domiciled in london trading in people trafficking and the sex trade up two percentile points .
perhaps tone can do a nixon and open up parts of nigerian boko harem to set up shop in east ham.
put me down as front and center for a spot in front of an iman who can teach me to conceal dry ice and fertilser in my pants on the old site of the percy ingles and pie and mash shop.
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 12:48]
TBF those Albanians don't half graft Disco, they work harder than the lazy under skilled good old British Worker , all they would want is a good quality of life (copyright Daily Mirror) and there was me hoping & Praying Tone would be captured somewhere in the Middle east and chained to a radiator for 5 years
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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Show your support on 13:09 - Jul 14 with 2125 views
Crushes who? Hamas or the residents of Gaza? There is a difference. Bombing a heavily built up civilian area because Hamas militants happen to live there doesn't seem like a terribly effective or proportionate way either to deal with the existing problem, or bring a lasting peace.
What would we have been saying if this was the South African government during apartheid bombing Soweto? I understand Israel wants to deal with Hamas but this isn't the way to do it.
This first section is the most important part for me.
It's amazing to me how cheaply we view the lives of people in certain countries.
If there was an alleged Hamas terrorist living in London, would we be ok just bombing his house killing that person, his family and anyone else around? Clearly not, so I'm not sure why it's ok to occur in another country.
I don't understand the situation enough in terms of a solution, what I do know is the loss of civilian life in unacceptable. Hard for some governments to criticise after their own recent 'campaigns' of course though.
I'm not as well travelled as some on here, but am reasonably so. The one constant irrespective of culture I found is that the majority of people if any country are nice people who just want to lead normal lives. For some though, that is not possible.
Show your support on 11:46 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
Granted it's an emotive word, Nelly, and I certanly used it for effect. However, there's no denying to my mind that the horrors visited upon civilians in Palestine are indiscriminate and genocidal. It constantly amazes me that the people of the West are so apathetic and disengaged on this particular conflict.
Because we've reached a stage where we are sick of hearing about the same set of idiots determined to beat the crap out of each other. In case you haven't noticed every time we stick our noses into other countries business we come out smelling of shit.
Anyway, whether we try to do anything is irrelevant. Sooner or later the dollar won't be the 'world's currency', it's just a matter of timing when the Chinese crash the US economy and,with the aid of the Eastern bloc and Asia, will crush these fckin fanatics in the Middle East for good.
Then, Brian, you may well have something to get emotive about.
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Show your support on 13:29 - Jul 14 with 2109 views
Because we've reached a stage where we are sick of hearing about the same set of idiots determined to beat the crap out of each other. In case you haven't noticed every time we stick our noses into other countries business we come out smelling of shit.
Anyway, whether we try to do anything is irrelevant. Sooner or later the dollar won't be the 'world's currency', it's just a matter of timing when the Chinese crash the US economy and,with the aid of the Eastern bloc and Asia, will crush these fckin fanatics in the Middle East for good.
Then, Brian, you may well have something to get emotive about.
Steve,
What I said was that I amazed that the people of the West were apathetic and disengaged. What you're explaining is why the governments are, and I agree with you in what you say. They won't get involved in Palestine.
But I think it's sad that the citizens of the West are afraid to call the slaughter Palestine what it is.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Show your support on 13:29 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
Steve,
What I said was that I amazed that the people of the West were apathetic and disengaged. What you're explaining is why the governments are, and I agree with you in what you say. They won't get involved in Palestine.
But I think it's sad that the citizens of the West are afraid to call the slaughter Palestine what it is.
And the 3 Jewish kids killed that set the latest troubles off? That not slaughter??
I think you're support of the Palestinians is somewhat selective.
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Show your support on 14:09 - Jul 14 with 2065 views
And the 3 Jewish kids killed that set the latest troubles off? That not slaughter??
I think you're support of the Palestinians is somewhat selective.
I'm not picking sides, Steve. Where did I even hint that I was, in fairness? Do you honestly think that I'd value one child's life less than another's?
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Show your support on 14:09 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
I'm not picking sides, Steve. Where did I even hint that I was, in fairness? Do you honestly think that I'd value one child's life less than another's?
Not at all, but your blame does seem to slant against Israel. I have to say though, when someone in a pub starts a fight but ends up getting battered do you not feel that a sense of justice has been done? 99/100 its the Palestinians who throw the first 'punch' so when they get battered it's hardly surprising nobody appears to give a fck.
If the Israeli's start the fight then that's a whole different scenario but the almost daily occurrence of rocket attacks comes from Hamas.
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Show your support on 14:40 - Jul 14 with 2037 views
Show your support on 13:29 - Jul 14 by BrianMcCarthy
Steve,
What I said was that I amazed that the people of the West were apathetic and disengaged. What you're explaining is why the governments are, and I agree with you in what you say. They won't get involved in Palestine.
But I think it's sad that the citizens of the West are afraid to call the slaughter Palestine what it is.
The problem is Brian, Israel are winning the propaganda war, that's why people seem disengaged.
Israel and the USA are mega hypocrites, Obama has gone down in my estimation, although don't suppose he's worried
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Show your support on 14:50 - Jul 14 with 2032 views
Not at all, but your blame does seem to slant against Israel. I have to say though, when someone in a pub starts a fight but ends up getting battered do you not feel that a sense of justice has been done? 99/100 its the Palestinians who throw the first 'punch' so when they get battered it's hardly surprising nobody appears to give a fck.
If the Israeli's start the fight then that's a whole different scenario but the almost daily occurrence of rocket attacks comes from Hamas.
Steve,
This thread is about stopping the present indiscriminate bombing of Palestine and its civilians. I think that it's genocidal and said so. I also think that suicide bombs set off in Israel by Palestinians are acts of murder, and I despise them equally, as I despise all violence. I didn't say so here because it was off-topic, and you're just guessing whether I'm slanted one way or the other.
I don't trust the sum of the information I come across from U.S., British, European, Israeli or Palestinian souces, so I have no idea who started the latest bout of mayhem, and I don't think anyone can accurately put a figure on it, being honest.
The problem with your pub fight analogy is that in a pub fight neither fighter kills the other one's children.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Not at all, but your blame does seem to slant against Israel. I have to say though, when someone in a pub starts a fight but ends up getting battered do you not feel that a sense of justice has been done? 99/100 its the Palestinians who throw the first 'punch' so when they get battered it's hardly surprising nobody appears to give a fck.
If the Israeli's start the fight then that's a whole different scenario but the almost daily occurrence of rocket attacks comes from Hamas.
Sorry but your wrong, when the last ceasefire was proposed, Israel broke the agreement the following day.
They have settled over 300,000 of their people on occupied territory, wouldn't you fight to get it back ?
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