| Tonight’s Fans Forum 19:53 - Feb 9 with 24936 views | DaleyBrent |
UnfortunatelY unable to attend tonight but really keen to here some of the key takeaways if those present wouldn’t mind summarising below:
Thanks in advance! UTD |  | | |  |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:56 - Feb 11 with 1944 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:44 - Feb 11 by HullDale |
I understood the comment about that transfer saving the club as meaning the 3 installments over 3 years covered our operating losses over those years.
Getting it in instalments was probably better for us than one lump sum. |
But again, that was our operating model, one all fans and the football world in general understood.
We developed players, sold them on, made money through add-ins throughout their career. We spent within our means. If that wasn’t the case why wasn’t there uproar at the time? We all proudly championed Rochdale for not overspending and being different. That’s how we were viewed as well. We can’t revise history now.
Why is Hogan any different to Holt, Lambert, Le Fondre, COG, Allen etc etc?
Not sure Asda would be referring back to being in danger if they hadn’t sold any food during the run up to Christmas 1985. [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 10:01]
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:02 - Feb 11 with 1902 views | judd |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:56 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
But again, that was our operating model, one all fans and the football world in general understood.
We developed players, sold them on, made money through add-ins throughout their career. We spent within our means. If that wasn’t the case why wasn’t there uproar at the time? We all proudly championed Rochdale for not overspending and being different. That’s how we were viewed as well. We can’t revise history now.
Why is Hogan any different to Holt, Lambert, Le Fondre, COG, Allen etc etc?
Not sure Asda would be referring back to being in danger if they hadn’t sold any food during the run up to Christmas 1985. [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 10:01]
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I can't explain why there was focus on that one player from that period.
I can only guess it was used as emphasis given what was being discussed at the time.
It dud no harm and whereas it was not necessarily forward looking, was nevertheless interesting to hear how these deals came off.
Mention was also made of Mathieson and Adshead not fulfilling sell on clauses. |  |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:14 - Feb 11 with 1852 views | James1980 |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:56 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
But again, that was our operating model, one all fans and the football world in general understood.
We developed players, sold them on, made money through add-ins throughout their career. We spent within our means. If that wasn’t the case why wasn’t there uproar at the time? We all proudly championed Rochdale for not overspending and being different. That’s how we were viewed as well. We can’t revise history now.
Why is Hogan any different to Holt, Lambert, Le Fondre, COG, Allen etc etc?
Not sure Asda would be referring back to being in danger if they hadn’t sold any food during the run up to Christmas 1985. [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 10:01]
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Wasn't the issue that with our gate receipts and lack of owner with deep pockets, that this model was always a gamble? |  |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:26 - Feb 11 with 1811 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:14 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
Wasn't the issue that with our gate receipts and lack of owner with deep pockets, that this model was always a gamble? |
Of course. And it was much discussed on here over the years about developing the club better during the good times to sustain us when the bad times inevitably arrived.
There’s no getting away from the fact mistakes have been made at the club for a long time, the attitude towards supporter concerns could and should have been a lot better. But at the same time, we can’t ever get away from how proud we all were for the way our club went about staying in existence and improving on the pitch to the point the admiration came from all over for how we progressed.
Fans were the club’s biggest critic throughout that time. We don’t need telling about problems that existed then today, we pointed them out at the time and tried to effect change. We can look at ourselves and say maybe we failed too.
However, it’s now we need to improve and be better. It’s only now we can effect. We have to start admitting where we’re falling short and give a clear, understandable route to where we are going. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:27 - Feb 11 with 1807 views | fitzochris |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:14 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
Wasn't the issue that with our gate receipts and lack of owner with deep pockets, that this model was always a gamble? |
Chris Dunphy referred to it as a cyclical model - we made hay while the sun shone to cover the periods of cloud. That’s why the Academy and acquisition of broken toys by both Hill and Parkin were integral. The former’s good on-field management also led to lucrative cup runs.
Take all that away and the lack of owners with deep pockets is exposed. But that’s the way we’ve always operated and we’ve survived if not always thrived. |  |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:30 - Feb 11 with 1790 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:27 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
Chris Dunphy referred to it as a cyclical model - we made hay while the sun shone to cover the periods of cloud. That’s why the Academy and acquisition of broken toys by both Hill and Parkin were integral. The former’s good on-field management also led to lucrative cup runs.
Take all that away and the lack of owners with deep pockets is exposed. But that’s the way we’ve always operated and we’ve survived if not always thrived. |
That’s it.
With the issues mentioned above that we didn’t make enough hay while the sun was out at Wembley or during promotion/league 1 campaigns off the pitch to improve there too. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:33 - Feb 11 with 1768 views | fitzochris |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:30 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
That’s it.
With the issues mentioned above that we didn’t make enough hay while the sun was out at Wembley or during promotion/league 1 campaigns off the pitch to improve there too. |
There is, of course, the COVID issue and how we were managed both on and off the field during that era that creates a big anomaly and that is to be acknowledged, I concede. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:36 - Feb 11 with 1747 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:56 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
But again, that was our operating model, one all fans and the football world in general understood.
We developed players, sold them on, made money through add-ins throughout their career. We spent within our means. If that wasn’t the case why wasn’t there uproar at the time? We all proudly championed Rochdale for not overspending and being different. That’s how we were viewed as well. We can’t revise history now.
Why is Hogan any different to Holt, Lambert, Le Fondre, COG, Allen etc etc?
Not sure Asda would be referring back to being in danger if they hadn’t sold any food during the run up to Christmas 1985. [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 10:01]
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I’d imagine the wider point is that that operating model for a club relying on secondary transfer fees doesn’t work any longer for the lower divisions in a post pandemic world.
How many moves now see a Premier League club pay over £10m for a Championship player with the previous club getting a sell on?
How many moves now see a Premier League or Championship club pay over £1m for a League 1 / League 2 player directly?
I can think of a couple but in recurring terms it is very few.
If each season there is a deficit to fill via cup runs and player sales and the player sales market isn’t there on the buying side then the clubs lower down the pyramid have a problem.
Andrew Kelly did say in a club statement in 2020 that there was a loss of £1.2m before player sales and that sales were made to close the gap:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2020/june/statement--andrew-kelly/
After returning, 2019 proved to be a very difficult year. The Accounts showed losses in excess of £1.2m in the last year of CD’s stewardship. The Board in an effort to steady the ship reverted to the well worn path of player sales.
The economics of the transfer market is out of everyone’s control. Hogan’s secondary fee from the Villa transfer was a happy accident but one I suspect funded several years of losses without worry of where the deficit was coming from.
Exeter are in a similar place currently having sold Ollie Watkins; when that money runs dry they’ll be in the same boat as other clubs.
https://www.devonlive.com/sport/football/football-news/exeter-city-sell-next-oll |  |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:37 - Feb 11 with 1745 views | James1980 |
When the clouds part how do we ensure that hay barn is being filled? | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:40 - Feb 11 with 1727 views | 49thseason |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:14 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
Wasn't the issue that with our gate receipts and lack of owner with deep pockets, that this model was always a gamble? |
There are a couple of issues, one being that the further you fall down the pyramid the less attractive a proposition the club becomes for young players to come to, equally the more desperate you are to raise funds, the lower chances of getting the best deal when selling.
There is also the argument about not getting enough value from a player on the pitch... if you sell every good prospect the team never gets the full benefit of his skills and his replacement is unlikely to match them because the money is required to pay bills so the team doesnt actually improve in quality. Would we be where we are now if we had kept Beesley and Morley? Are Quigley and Ball adequate replacements? Selling the family silver never ends well, and eventually it runs out. [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 11:00]
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:41 - Feb 11 with 1715 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:33 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
There is, of course, the COVID issue and how we were managed both on and off the field during that era that creates a big anomaly and that is to be acknowledged, I concede. |
Covid has changed the operating model for all clubs.
There were very very few player transfers in 2020 and 2021 for large cash sums. Clubs also ran down contracted players to compete in the free transfer market each summer.
Whether it ever financially recovers to what it was remains to be seen but it’s certainly not operated as a pyramid for several years. Most of the money stops in the Championship. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:49 - Feb 11 with 1683 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:33 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
There is, of course, the COVID issue and how we were managed both on and off the field during that era that creates a big anomaly and that is to be acknowledged, I concede. |
Indeed and it’s right that we look at what does and doesn’t work now and evolve.
But despite the fact we did, as a supporter base, raise issues around how we could have done better during the “glory years”, the model we had helped ensure those glory years were experienced in the first place. The game has changed since of course, but making money from sales and add ons can’t be classed as a “happy accident”, that was part of a model we were proud of. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:53 - Feb 11 with 1658 views | fitzochris |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:37 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
When the clouds part how do we ensure that hay barn is being filled? |
Thanks to the appointment of a poor first-team manager - which has led to no saleable players and no cup runs - this is a real dilemma for the current board to solve.
I think Ethan Brierley will be last big price tag to come out of our club for a while. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:00 - Feb 11 with 1623 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:37 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
When the clouds part how do we ensure that hay barn is being filled? |
A fine question, James. This is where we’ve fallen short throughout time.
The Trust are a good resource. Progress has been made by the club as well, that’s to be praised. But we have lacked and still lack clear, visible structure for how we operate off the pitch where supporters can identify what is happening and have a recognised route to improving this. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:01 - Feb 11 with 1599 views | judd |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:53 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
Thanks to the appointment of a poor first-team manager - which has led to no saleable players and no cup runs - this is a real dilemma for the current board to solve.
I think Ethan Brierley will be last big price tag to come out of our club for a while. |
Mention was made of a youth player attracting the interest of several bug clubs. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:03 - Feb 11 with 1581 views | James1980 |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:53 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
Thanks to the appointment of a poor first-team manager - which has led to no saleable players and no cup runs - this is a real dilemma for the current board to solve.
I think Ethan Brierley will be last big price tag to come out of our club for a while. |
Do we have any promising prospects in the academy? | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:05 - Feb 11 with 1558 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:01 - Feb 11 by judd |
Mention was made of a youth player attracting the interest of several bug clubs. |
Royal Antwerp?
This is an area where we could have been better over the years though. Players like Thomas who we could possibly have made money on ahead of them reaching first team level. Not knowing enough about the contracts and terms of selling youth players, not totally sure what fees can be achieved. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:07 - Feb 11 with 1547 views | fitzochris |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:03 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
Do we have any promising prospects in the academy? |
Yes, Oscar Kelly (which I think is who Judd is referring to above) but these players need the right environment to grow and showcase their talents in a first-team environment. A struggling team containing players who can’t be arsed to train isn’t that. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:41 - Feb 11 with 1429 views | James1980 |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:07 - Feb 11 by fitzochris |
Yes, Oscar Kelly (which I think is who Judd is referring to above) but these players need the right environment to grow and showcase their talents in a first-team environment. A struggling team containing players who can’t be arsed to train isn’t that. |
He certainly looks like he has talent from clips. Hopefully he will fulfil his potential. I suppose it would be unfair to mention players in the lower age groups that are showing promise as it might put unnecessary pressure on them. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:46 - Feb 11 with 1407 views | judd |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:05 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
Royal Antwerp?
This is an area where we could have been better over the years though. Players like Thomas who we could possibly have made money on ahead of them reaching first team level. Not knowing enough about the contracts and terms of selling youth players, not totally sure what fees can be achieved. |
I do not recall Royal Antwerp being mentioned, only that several big clubs were showing an interest.
If we are going to talk historical facts, then the Peter Thomas year group was badly handled. Not one scholar taken on. | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:50 - Feb 11 with 1389 views | D_Alien |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 09:03 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
I posted about it in page 1. It doesn’t add up:
Scott Hogan was sold to Aston Villa at the end of the January 2017 transfer window.
Edit: see page 1 for the links - they didn’t copy and paste!
A week earlier we signed Joe Bunney to a new deal and also signed Jack Redshaw on loan.
Link page 1
Even earlier in January we have Conrad Logan a new deal:
Link page 1
Do wish people would stop reflecting on the past to somehow justify the now and the future.
Edit edit: none of the above a direct reply to you DAlien! [Post edited 11 Feb 2023 9:10]
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Ah yes, missed that in the post-mat.. erm post-forum analysis, cheers |  |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:56 - Feb 11 with 1356 views | D_Alien |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:26 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
Of course. And it was much discussed on here over the years about developing the club better during the good times to sustain us when the bad times inevitably arrived.
There’s no getting away from the fact mistakes have been made at the club for a long time, the attitude towards supporter concerns could and should have been a lot better. But at the same time, we can’t ever get away from how proud we all were for the way our club went about staying in existence and improving on the pitch to the point the admiration came from all over for how we progressed.
Fans were the club’s biggest critic throughout that time. We don’t need telling about problems that existed then today, we pointed them out at the time and tried to effect change. We can look at ourselves and say maybe we failed too.
However, it’s now we need to improve and be better. It’s only now we can effect. We have to start admitting where we’re falling short and give a clear, understandable route to where we are going. |
Which we can only do if there's transparency about where we actually are, which although a couple of the details were slightly out or i misheard due to acoustics, was the over-riding point in my earlier post | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:57 - Feb 11 with 1350 views | 442Dale |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:56 - Feb 11 by D_Alien |
Which we can only do if there's transparency about where we actually are, which although a couple of the details were slightly out or i misheard due to acoustics, was the over-riding point in my earlier post |
Fully agree.
Where are we? What are we? What will we be? | |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 12:01 - Feb 11 with 1332 views | TVOS1907 |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 10:49 - Feb 11 by 442Dale |
Indeed and it’s right that we look at what does and doesn’t work now and evolve.
But despite the fact we did, as a supporter base, raise issues around how we could have done better during the “glory years”, the model we had helped ensure those glory years were experienced in the first place. The game has changed since of course, but making money from sales and add ons can’t be classed as a “happy accident”, that was part of a model we were proud of. |
... and one which would have formed part of the thinking when Hogan went to Brentford, just as when Holt went to Forest, Lambert to Bristol Rovers, Le Fondre to Rotherham and even when Keith Welch went to Bristol City, to name just a handful.
Calling it a "happy accident" does a disservice to the people who brokered those deals in the first place. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 12:12 - Feb 11 with 1292 views | fitzochris |
| Tonight’s Fans Forum on 11:41 - Feb 11 by James1980 |
He certainly looks like he has talent from clips. Hopefully he will fulfil his potential. I suppose it would be unfair to mention players in the lower age groups that are showing promise as it might put unnecessary pressure on them. |
Yes and I only mention Oscar due to him already having made professional debut and due to his international call-up.
I worry about these young players if the report on this thread, of certain players not fancying intense training on a Monday and a Thursday, is accurate. That is not the type of environment for developing future top-tier footballers. | |
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