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If you live within the North / South Circular Roads, you might soon find yourself inside the Congestion Charge Zone. With NO residents' discount. So £15 a day to drive anywhere.
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 19:21 - Oct 19 by GloryHunter
"The death of a young girl who lived near the North Circular was directly linked to pollution levels."
I suspect you might be thinking of Ella Kissi-Debrah, who actually lived on the South Circular Road in Catford, at the junction with my street. Her mother Rosamund has become a vociferous local campaigner against traffic pollution. Unfortunately, in June a LTN was imposed on our NEIGHBOURING area of Lee Green, which has forced the traffic away from there and into our streets, which have become rat runs, and reduced the South Circular to a permanent jam. Poor Rosamund is doing her nut, and is now worried about her sons, who are displaying the same respiratory symptoms that killed their sister.
Meanwhile, people inside the Lee Green LTN are posting pictures on Facebook of their kids playing happily in their now empty streets (soon to have fewer shops and cafes, too, as passing trade has all but disappeared).
Locally, it is being viewed as a bit of a race thing, too, as the LTN area is more expensive middle class housing - largely white - whilst people who live on the cheaper South Circular are predominantly non-white. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but it shows the lack of understanding behind the planning. The Mayor of Lewisham has said, "The current measures are not working as expected". Meaning that they thought that if they closed off a few rat runs, then the traffic would simply evaporate.
[Post edited 19 Oct 2020 19:24]
Thanks for that clarification, I think that is the unfortunate person I meant.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 22:54 - Oct 19 with 1683 views
The only thing that will solve environment related issues (and, in fact, a lot more in addition) is policies which promote the population reduction of human beings without a bloodbath (not just in this country, but the world over). You can bring in all these other policies as much as you like, but whilst the human population continues to grow at an ever increasing and alarming rate, both in this country and the world over, it not only cancels out the various policies but in fact far outweighs them. At some point in time (and there is no reason why that can't be now) a few generations will have to deal with this fact and do something about it, or nature will just wipe them out in a far less pleasant manner (starvation, thirst, etc, etc (possibly leading to a serious world war again where pretty much everyone and everything will be buked to bits), or perhaps another pandemic such as the current one but with a very high kill rate). We cannot go on adding hundreds of millions to our numbers across the globe each year and expect everything to be fine. Either we have billions of us but we live like cavemen, or we have a few hundred million or so of us who can then drive and fly to our heart's content and have plentiful resources available to us without war and without decimating ecosystems which are critical to our very survival
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 9:06]
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:03 - Oct 20 with 1488 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 08:46 - Oct 20 by The_Beast1976
The only thing that will solve environment related issues (and, in fact, a lot more in addition) is policies which promote the population reduction of human beings without a bloodbath (not just in this country, but the world over). You can bring in all these other policies as much as you like, but whilst the human population continues to grow at an ever increasing and alarming rate, both in this country and the world over, it not only cancels out the various policies but in fact far outweighs them. At some point in time (and there is no reason why that can't be now) a few generations will have to deal with this fact and do something about it, or nature will just wipe them out in a far less pleasant manner (starvation, thirst, etc, etc (possibly leading to a serious world war again where pretty much everyone and everything will be buked to bits), or perhaps another pandemic such as the current one but with a very high kill rate). We cannot go on adding hundreds of millions to our numbers across the globe each year and expect everything to be fine. Either we have billions of us but we live like cavemen, or we have a few hundred million or so of us who can then drive and fly to our heart's content and have plentiful resources available to us without war and without decimating ecosystems which are critical to our very survival
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 9:06]
I think we hit tipping point about 20 years ago. We're on borrowed time now.
It took over 2 million years of human history for the global population to reach 1 billion, and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion and I think it's no coincidence that things like the industrial revolution and the ability to mine resources (rather than just living off the land & sea) the last couple of hundred years has had a major impact.
Once those underground resources run out, we're royally fked and I think there will be a massive problem.
1
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:19 - Oct 20 with 1469 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 19:21 - Oct 19 by GloryHunter
"The death of a young girl who lived near the North Circular was directly linked to pollution levels."
I suspect you might be thinking of Ella Kissi-Debrah, who actually lived on the South Circular Road in Catford, at the junction with my street. Her mother Rosamund has become a vociferous local campaigner against traffic pollution. Unfortunately, in June a LTN was imposed on our NEIGHBOURING area of Lee Green, which has forced the traffic away from there and into our streets, which have become rat runs, and reduced the South Circular to a permanent jam. Poor Rosamund is doing her nut, and is now worried about her sons, who are displaying the same respiratory symptoms that killed their sister.
Meanwhile, people inside the Lee Green LTN are posting pictures on Facebook of their kids playing happily in their now empty streets (soon to have fewer shops and cafes, too, as passing trade has all but disappeared).
Locally, it is being viewed as a bit of a race thing, too, as the LTN area is more expensive middle class housing - largely white - whilst people who live on the cheaper South Circular are predominantly non-white. I'm sure that wasn't the intention, but it shows the lack of understanding behind the planning. The Mayor of Lewisham has said, "The current measures are not working as expected". Meaning that they thought that if they closed off a few rat runs, then the traffic would simply evaporate.
[Post edited 19 Oct 2020 19:24]
That feels just like in Acton. My road (designated a main road) is now gridlocked, while the council leader retweets pictures of parents cycling with kids outside their £2million homes.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:19 - Oct 20 with 1468 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:03 - Oct 20 by Juzzie
I think we hit tipping point about 20 years ago. We're on borrowed time now.
It took over 2 million years of human history for the global population to reach 1 billion, and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion and I think it's no coincidence that things like the industrial revolution and the ability to mine resources (rather than just living off the land & sea) the last couple of hundred years has had a major impact.
Once those underground resources run out, we're royally fked and I think there will be a massive problem.
Surely advances in medicine and science have had a greater effect, people now surviving what 100 years ago would have killed them?
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:19 - Oct 20 by loftboy
Surely advances in medicine and science have had a greater effect, people now surviving what 100 years ago would have killed them?
Probably a bit of both.
I guess it aligns with the principle that for every action there is a reaction. If you want to live for longer and have all the benefits of a modern society (including medical treatments) then you have to have less children coming through and keep the human population stable at a number which doesn't damage the planet and everything else living on it. You can only have one or the other, not both (otherwise you end up where we are headed, which won't be pleasant I suspect).
In the first instance I'd look at policies which put the population generally into a position where they cannot have more than one child. It would take a couple of generations to see the results, and would create some difficulty circumstances for some, but at least there would still be a future for humans and other life forms (rather than no future, which is where we're headed)
0
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 13:22 - Oct 20 with 1374 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 08:46 - Oct 20 by The_Beast1976
The only thing that will solve environment related issues (and, in fact, a lot more in addition) is policies which promote the population reduction of human beings without a bloodbath (not just in this country, but the world over). You can bring in all these other policies as much as you like, but whilst the human population continues to grow at an ever increasing and alarming rate, both in this country and the world over, it not only cancels out the various policies but in fact far outweighs them. At some point in time (and there is no reason why that can't be now) a few generations will have to deal with this fact and do something about it, or nature will just wipe them out in a far less pleasant manner (starvation, thirst, etc, etc (possibly leading to a serious world war again where pretty much everyone and everything will be buked to bits), or perhaps another pandemic such as the current one but with a very high kill rate). We cannot go on adding hundreds of millions to our numbers across the globe each year and expect everything to be fine. Either we have billions of us but we live like cavemen, or we have a few hundred million or so of us who can then drive and fly to our heart's content and have plentiful resources available to us without war and without decimating ecosystems which are critical to our very survival
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 9:06]
Agreed but from an environmental perspective, you make more of a difference by controlling the population of advanced countries because their per capita resource consumption and greenhouse gas emissions are much higher than for people who live in the developing world.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 11:03 - Oct 20 by Juzzie
I think we hit tipping point about 20 years ago. We're on borrowed time now.
It took over 2 million years of human history for the global population to reach 1 billion, and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion and I think it's no coincidence that things like the industrial revolution and the ability to mine resources (rather than just living off the land & sea) the last couple of hundred years has had a major impact.
Once those underground resources run out, we're royally fked and I think there will be a massive problem.
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 13:22 - Oct 20 by R_from_afar
Agreed but from an environmental perspective, you make more of a difference by controlling the population of advanced countries because their per capita resource consumption and greenhouse gas emissions are much higher than for people who live in the developing world.
Yes I agree with that. However, the issue is that the population in less 'advanced' countries is even more out of control that it is in advanced countries, therefore when they 'catch up' with us (which they inevitably will) what we do now in advanced countries to tackle environmental issues will pale into complete insignificance compared to what is to come when all those billions of people are trying to live like we do now in 'advanced' countries. Accordingly, unless the world population starts to reduce significantly downwards over the next 100+ years, humanity will likely be wised out and will take everything else with it too (it's already taken out 50% or so of other creatures in the last 50 or so years alone).
We need policies which 'encourage' (but not force) no more than one child per couple in 'advanced' countries (building more houses, schools, hospitals etc is not the answer, because that just encourages even more growth of the populace which is the last thing we need). Somewhere along the line it will undoubtedly happen, but it will probably be too late by then. Either that or we all completely forego modern living and get back to living like cavemen with a life expectancy of 30-40yrs
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 14:12]
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:16 - Oct 20 with 1299 views
I think that article is misconceived. Just my opinion of course. It ignores what will happen when the 'undeveloped' countries become 'developed' countries and rape and pillage the land even more than we do to satiate the demand of even bigger populations.
If there were about 6.5 billion less people then we could probably live in whatever way we liked without causing any real damage to the planet. Alternatively, we forego all modern living. We can't have both (billions of people and modern living).
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:33 - Oct 20 with 1279 views
Whilst all these debates about global warming, over population, lack of emission controls are valid and relevant, the proposal is nothing to do with any of that.
It is simply a way of increasing revenue for TFL/the government.
TFL is looking for funding due to the low customer numbers and the government is saying you need to raise some extra income as part of your finance before we will agree to extra subsidisies.
This is something that the club and other London sporting organisations in the zone should be objecting too. It will be difficult enough to get people back in the habit of paying for what is already an expensive day out without this extra charge on top for all those attending who drive.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:41 - Oct 20 with 1258 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:33 - Oct 20 by francisbowles
Whilst all these debates about global warming, over population, lack of emission controls are valid and relevant, the proposal is nothing to do with any of that.
It is simply a way of increasing revenue for TFL/the government.
TFL is looking for funding due to the low customer numbers and the government is saying you need to raise some extra income as part of your finance before we will agree to extra subsidisies.
This is something that the club and other London sporting organisations in the zone should be objecting too. It will be difficult enough to get people back in the habit of paying for what is already an expensive day out without this extra charge on top for all those attending who drive.
Can somebody explain for an exiled Londoner where the congestion zone will reach. Will it include White City. I drive in from Reading along the M4 corridor.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:45 - Oct 20 with 1257 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:16 - Oct 20 by The_Beast1976
I think that article is misconceived. Just my opinion of course. It ignores what will happen when the 'undeveloped' countries become 'developed' countries and rape and pillage the land even more than we do to satiate the demand of even bigger populations.
If there were about 6.5 billion less people then we could probably live in whatever way we liked without causing any real damage to the planet. Alternatively, we forego all modern living. We can't have both (billions of people and modern living).
I make you right mate.Millions of Chinese and Indians used to be happy because they had a bicycle to get around on.Now they all want cars and mobile phones. Who are we to tell the 3rd world that they can’t have the same things we take for granted?Luckily I’ll be in my cardboard coffin by the time the real crap hits the fan in a few decades time.
1
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:46 - Oct 20 with 1257 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:41 - Oct 20 by QPR_John
Can somebody explain for an exiled Londoner where the congestion zone will reach. Will it include White City. I drive in from Reading along the M4 corridor.
The new zone will cover the whole of the north & south circular. Give it a few more years then it will be the M25.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 15:08 - Oct 20 with 1233 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:45 - Oct 20 by stowmarketrange
I make you right mate.Millions of Chinese and Indians used to be happy because they had a bicycle to get around on.Now they all want cars and mobile phones. Who are we to tell the 3rd world that they can’t have the same things we take for granted?Luckily I’ll be in my cardboard coffin by the time the real crap hits the fan in a few decades time.
You and me both (in cardboard coffins when the sh1te really hits the fan). I feel sorry for the young kids now and those born in the future, unless someone miraculously cures the population problem without a bloodbath.
Anyway, back to the original point - on the scheme of things, doing things like extending the congestion charge zone (which others on here suggest is not even environmentally driven and is just about money) will pale into insignificance when the real sh!te hits the fan. Pointless on the one hand extending the CG zone then on the other hand building houses, schools, etc all over the gaff on green field developments
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 15:13]
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 16:39 - Oct 20 with 1168 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:33 - Oct 20 by francisbowles
Whilst all these debates about global warming, over population, lack of emission controls are valid and relevant, the proposal is nothing to do with any of that.
It is simply a way of increasing revenue for TFL/the government.
TFL is looking for funding due to the low customer numbers and the government is saying you need to raise some extra income as part of your finance before we will agree to extra subsidisies.
This is something that the club and other London sporting organisations in the zone should be objecting too. It will be difficult enough to get people back in the habit of paying for what is already an expensive day out without this extra charge on top for all those attending who drive.
Not so I'm afraid. Well, it's certainly not as a result of low passengers numbers due to Covid/lockdown measures this year anyway.
This has been in the offing for several years now.
Siemens in Poole is a customer of mine, and they have the contract which makes traffic monitoring systems/camera's for ULEZ. They told me 2 years this was happening. And yes it will extend as far out as the M25 in the coming years!!
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 16:43]
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 17:40 - Oct 20 with 1137 views
I can't help thinking this is just a scare story. The idea of forcing everyone to pay £15 every time they get in their car is surely nonsense. Every person who goes to do a weekly shop, school run, drop kids off for sports training or matches it would put just about every mechanic within the North Circular out of business, most petrol stations. Every second hand car would become just about worthless. How many cameras would you also have to set up? It would be thousands. After all, this would not be for just people from outside coming into the area, but for everybody living inside the area too. It also sets a very worrying precedent that driving is only allowed for the rich.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 18:01 - Oct 20 with 1116 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:45 - Oct 20 by stowmarketrange
I make you right mate.Millions of Chinese and Indians used to be happy because they had a bicycle to get around on.Now they all want cars and mobile phones. Who are we to tell the 3rd world that they can’t have the same things we take for granted?Luckily I’ll be in my cardboard coffin by the time the real crap hits the fan in a few decades time.
As the line in the James song "sit down" goes. " if I hadn't seen such riches I could have lived with being poor" Therin lies the problem!
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 19:49 - Oct 20 with 1078 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 16:39 - Oct 20 by W7Ranger
Not so I'm afraid. Well, it's certainly not as a result of low passengers numbers due to Covid/lockdown measures this year anyway.
This has been in the offing for several years now.
Siemens in Poole is a customer of mine, and they have the contract which makes traffic monitoring systems/camera's for ULEZ. They told me 2 years this was happening. And yes it will extend as far out as the M25 in the coming years!!
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 16:43]
From your post I'm not sure if you are aware that ULEZ and congestion charging are two different things and two different charges (both) apply if you have an older vehicle.
ULEZ extension has been in the offing for years but the congestion zone extending this far is relatively recent, I think.
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 19:50]
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 19:53 - Oct 20 with 1071 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 17:40 - Oct 20 by gobbles
I can't help thinking this is just a scare story. The idea of forcing everyone to pay £15 every time they get in their car is surely nonsense. Every person who goes to do a weekly shop, school run, drop kids off for sports training or matches it would put just about every mechanic within the North Circular out of business, most petrol stations. Every second hand car would become just about worthless. How many cameras would you also have to set up? It would be thousands. After all, this would not be for just people from outside coming into the area, but for everybody living inside the area too. It also sets a very worrying precedent that driving is only allowed for the rich.
The increased revenue would fairly quickly cover the cost of the cameras and they are going to be set up for ULEZ anyway.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 20:35 - Oct 20 with 1038 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 10:59 - Oct 19 by LythamR
for someone driving into HQ from beyond the north circular that would add £345 to the cost of attending matches on top of any parking charges. It wouldnt be so bad if there was decent parking at railway stations. I would be more than happy with coming in from West Ruislip on the tube but you cant get a parking space now never mind when a plan like this is activated
I don't have a problem getting parking at West Ruislip station on match days .. usually about 12:30. Alternative is using Ruislip Gardens, there's free street parking about 5 minutes walk from the station usually .. and nearly always within 10 mins walk from the station.
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Congestion Charge Zone extension on 20:46 - Oct 20 with 1025 views
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 17:40 - Oct 20 by gobbles
I can't help thinking this is just a scare story. The idea of forcing everyone to pay £15 every time they get in their car is surely nonsense. Every person who goes to do a weekly shop, school run, drop kids off for sports training or matches it would put just about every mechanic within the North Circular out of business, most petrol stations. Every second hand car would become just about worthless. How many cameras would you also have to set up? It would be thousands. After all, this would not be for just people from outside coming into the area, but for everybody living inside the area too. It also sets a very worrying precedent that driving is only allowed for the rich.
I agree with what you say but I guess the fact that it's only seemingly London that they're targeting means that there will still be a second-hand car market elsewhere.
I'd definitely put my self forward as a sceptic as although I agree with a technology led green economy in principle - in practice it generally seems to increase the cost of living, spread confusion, encourage exploitation, degrade freedom and stifle creativity. I have little faith in our government system or wider society to get this right.
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 14:41 - Oct 20 by QPR_John
Can somebody explain for an exiled Londoner where the congestion zone will reach. Will it include White City. I drive in from Reading along the M4 corridor.
Congestion Charge Zone extension on 20:35 - Oct 20 by swisscottage
I don't have a problem getting parking at West Ruislip station on match days .. usually about 12:30. Alternative is using Ruislip Gardens, there's free street parking about 5 minutes walk from the station usually .. and nearly always within 10 mins walk from the station.
Thanks Justin
Last time we tried it we couldnt get in at West and did manage to park near Ruislip gardens but was a bit of a pallaver, plus i could do without setting off an hour earlier and getting home later than now.
Also cant risk messing up a proven lucky routine :)
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