| How many subs should be allowed? 16:44 - Nov 19 with 3113 views | KensalT |
The European elite are apparently talking about allowing six subs in games and increasing squad sizes to 28 to make this possible:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cj0e85lm36no
The idea is that this will reduce the workload on players.
Earlier this month Michael Cox had a piece in The Athletic suggesting that the move to five subs has actually increased the tempo of games and increased the workload on players who aren't substituted.
This means that some players can run themselves into the ground and then be replaced by fresh players who can keep running like crazy against those players who aren't subbed and have to play the full ninety minutes.
Cox also suggests this favours the wealthier clubs with stronger benches and makes it harder for newly promoted teams to make the step up.
Here's the link to the Cox piece, and I have pasted in the text of the article below the link:
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6766071/2025/11/02/substitutes-premier-league-t
"Why the five-substitute era has not been good for football
By Michael Cox
Nov. 2, 2025
Amid reports that some of Europe’s major clubs have held discussions about the possibility of introducing a sixth substitute in league matches, it’s worth reflecting on the situation football has accidentally found itself in, with ‘only’ five permitted.
This was initially an emergency measure introduced in 2020, when football was forced into a demanding schedule to compensate for the three months lost to the pandemic. Entirely predictably, the temporary change became permanent.
Naturally, managers have taken advantage of the extra changes. Since the start of 2022-23, when the five-substitute rule was made permanent in the Premier League, managers have used (at least) a fourth substitute 72 per cent of the time. They evidently appreciate having more ability to rotate, and more scope for making tactical alterations.
But has it actually been good for football overall?
The concept of five substitutes was about easing physical demands on players, therefore guarding against injury and physical burnout. But it’s highly questionable whether this has had any serious impact whatsoever, and it’s arguably made things worse; this time last season, in particular, there seemed to be more injuries than ever before. Tottenham currently have 10 players out injured, for example.
Granted, it’s not an entirely fair test, because in what could be termed the ‘five-substitute era’, top-level players have become involved in more competitive games, because of the expansion of the Champions League and the introduction of the Club World Cup.
But football has completely overlooked the impact of introducing extra substitutes: it increases the tempo of the game, and the physical demands upon those who aren’t substituted. It’s a fairly straightforward equation: if no substitutes were allowed, the game would need to be played at a tempo that players could sustain for 90 minutes. At the other end of the scale, if 11 substitutes were allowed, every player could run themselves into the ground, knowing they could be replaced.
Football has ended up at a halfway house of five, which means that, going into the final stages, it’s not uncommon to have 10 outfielders with fresh legs up against 10 outfielders who are fatigued, but need to keep on sprinting at the intensity of the substitutes. Whereas once players with fresh legs were outliers, almost like a manager playing a ‘joker’, they’re now a more fundamental part of the game. It’s worth clarifying that the tempo in football has always increased decade on decade, and the five-substitute rule is not the only factor. But things do appear to have exploded dramatically in the last half-decade.
Of course, the increased intensity affects things tactically, too. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and many people are content for football to be played at an increasingly high tempo.
The danger, though, is that the game becomes so frenetic that talented technical players are denied an extra half-second on the ball, an extra few yards of space. The challenge, as always in football, is for those players to showcase their skill within the context of a high tempo. But this is perhaps an artificial high tempo, dictated by an unreasonable number of substitutes. This season’s Premier League has been notable for its underwhelming level of football, with teams seemingly looking elsewhere — to set-pieces — for creativity, at a time when playmakers are finding it difficult to create.
Then, of course, there’s the problem of inequality; more substitutes surely benefits the richer clubs.
First, they can afford to introduce top-class replacements, and five of them — rather than simply three — can completely overwhelm weaker clubs. Yes, in strict terms, the issue is not simply outright quality, but quality in comparison to the player being replaced. Still, it’s difficult to make a case that, say, Arsenal — who use their considerable budget to build a squad to compete in multiple competitions, and therefore have strength in depth — are not better off from the five-subs rule than, say, Burnley. It’s hardly a coincidence that the prospect of a further increase to six has been raised by the big clubs in particular.
Then there’s the long-term impact of depth and stockpiling players. Restrictions have been introduced on squad sizes in an attempt to tackle this problem. Ultimately, most footballers want to play and if a manager is using 16 rather than 14 every game, big clubs have more scope to keep more players involved. The same applies to matchday squads, which are now 20 rather than 18 in the Premier League, and 23 in some other European leagues.
Pep Guardiola wants an unlimited number of players on the bench, so more can feel involved. “I would love the Premier League to say, ‘You can allow on the bench the players you want’,” he said. “I would love it because everybody can play. More alternatives.” But it would be better for football, overall, if players on the fringes moved onto clubs where they will start matches.
The five-substitute era has probably made it harder for promoted teams to survive — things are set to be different this time, but the last six promoted clubs have all been relegated straight away. One of them, Ipswich Town — who found themselves in the Premier League after consecutive promotions — would have been placed 17th on a ‘first half league table’ last season, but 20th on a ‘second half league table’. Were Kieran McKenna’s tactics worked out by opposition managers during matches? Were Ipswich serial bottlers? Or were they simply unable to cope because the five-substitute era rewards established clubs with depth?
There’s also an argument — and maybe this is just one for traditionalists — that football is also supposed to be, on some level, a test of individual stamina and adaptability. Obviously, some substitutes are needed to replace injured and fatigued players, and sides should be able to make changes to tilt the balance of their side too.
But five substitutes is probably too many, and has likely had the opposite impact to what was intended. As a solution to the problem of fatigue, two extra changes has been the footballing equivalent of throwing a glass of water onto a chip pan fire."
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 16:52 - Nov 19 with 2686 views | stowmarketrange |
I wish we could go back to a maximum of 3 subs again as I think 5 is too many,let alone 6.It just disrupts the flow of the game,which is only good for a team getting the result they want.
The genie won’t fit back it the bottle though,so maybe reduce the windows for when subs can be made to 2 outside of ht? |  | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:06 - Nov 19 with 2628 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 16:52 - Nov 19 by stowmarketrange |
I wish we could go back to a maximum of 3 subs again as I think 5 is too many,let alone 6.It just disrupts the flow of the game,which is only good for a team getting the result they want.
The genie won’t fit back it the bottle though,so maybe reduce the windows for when subs can be made to 2 outside of ht? |
I would go along with three subs. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:14 - Nov 19 with 2602 views | stevec |
Very interesting article, hadn’t occurred to me that a consequence of 5 subs has speeded the game up. Makes a lot of sense.
Undoubtedly flair players are the losers in all this, I wonder how Stan would have fared in today’s game. Football in general is starting to suffer from athletes dominating, they’re very rarely the players you’d pay to watch. |  | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:18 - Nov 19 with 2582 views | Northernr |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:14 - Nov 19 by stevec |
Very interesting article, hadn’t occurred to me that a consequence of 5 subs has speeded the game up. Makes a lot of sense.
Undoubtedly flair players are the losers in all this, I wonder how Stan would have fared in today’s game. Football in general is starting to suffer from athletes dominating, they’re very rarely the players you’d pay to watch. |
Remember Barnsley in lockdown? Managed by Ismael at the time and he realised more than anybody else that you could basically condense the pitch, press like fck from the front with three forwards literally sprinting after anybody and everything replace all three of them after an hour and still have two subs in hand.
I love the logic of this. Five subs has had a negative effect, it's sped the game up horribly and the players are dropping dead. Okay, shall we go back to three subs then? No, we think we should go to six. Like adding another couple of lanes to a Dallas freeway to sort the traffic congestion.
It's just another example of modern football eating itself. It's fck all to do with player welfare and all to do with monied clubs with giant squads trying to press home that advantage and keep their £250k per week substitutes happy. If they were that bothered about burnout they wouldn't be jetting off to Australia and the Far East all the time would they?
Give them six subs, they'll be back in 18 months time wanting seven. |  | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:24 - Nov 19 with 2558 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:18 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
Remember Barnsley in lockdown? Managed by Ismael at the time and he realised more than anybody else that you could basically condense the pitch, press like fck from the front with three forwards literally sprinting after anybody and everything replace all three of them after an hour and still have two subs in hand.
I love the logic of this. Five subs has had a negative effect, it's sped the game up horribly and the players are dropping dead. Okay, shall we go back to three subs then? No, we think we should go to six. Like adding another couple of lanes to a Dallas freeway to sort the traffic congestion.
It's just another example of modern football eating itself. It's fck all to do with player welfare and all to do with monied clubs with giant squads trying to press home that advantage and keep their £250k per week substitutes happy. If they were that bothered about burnout they wouldn't be jetting off to Australia and the Far East all the time would they?
Give them six subs, they'll be back in 18 months time wanting seven. |
It's not just more subs they're after.
They also want to increase squad sizes.
So even more of the top players will be hoovered up by the bigger clubs.
And as you say, give them this inch and they'll be back for seven subs and probably 30 players in a squad. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:26 - Nov 19 with 2550 views | Northernr |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:24 - Nov 19 by KensalT |
It's not just more subs they're after.
They also want to increase squad sizes.
So even more of the top players will be hoovered up by the bigger clubs.
And as you say, give them this inch and they'll be back for seven subs and probably 30 players in a squad. |
Of course.
Just give in. What's the point? We know it'll happen.
I suspect next thing will be like internationals where your whole squad is effectively on the bench. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:30 - Nov 19 with 2540 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:26 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
Of course.
Just give in. What's the point? We know it'll happen.
I suspect next thing will be like internationals where your whole squad is effectively on the bench. |
The article does say that some European leagues have 23 players in the matchday squad!
Not sure the facilities at QPR could handle that many! [Post edited 19 Nov 17:31]
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:38 - Nov 19 with 2490 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:34 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
Kenilworth Road with the little school chairs stretching down the touchline  |
And where would all the players get kitted up?
Changing rooms weren't designed for that many bodies.
You'd need to upgrade the sound system at LR just for the coaches to make themselves heard in the team talks. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:41 - Nov 19 with 2480 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:26 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
Of course.
Just give in. What's the point? We know it'll happen.
I suspect next thing will be like internationals where your whole squad is effectively on the bench. |
I had a whole thing typed up...1958, 1988, 1990, the history of subs and their various uses and abuses...but you've nailed it. [Post edited 19 Nov 17:42]
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:50 - Nov 19 with 2443 views | Northernr |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:38 - Nov 19 by KensalT |
And where would all the players get kitted up?
Changing rooms weren't designed for that many bodies.
You'd need to upgrade the sound system at LR just for the coaches to make themselves heard in the team talks. |
I've done interviews in our changing rooms and I'm amazed there's room for a starting 11 in there. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:52 - Nov 19 with 2434 views | Northernr |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:41 - Nov 19 by BrianMcCarthy |
I had a whole thing typed up...1958, 1988, 1990, the history of subs and their various uses and abuses...but you've nailed it. [Post edited 19 Nov 17:42]
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I mean, why stop there mate?
I think you should be allowed to name a starting 11, and be able to make six changes to that in the first half. Then you should be able to name an entirely different 11 for the second half, and be allowed to make six changes to that before the 75th minute. Then in the final period you should be allowed to bring on three designated "finishers". Which increases to four if the stoppage time is more than five minutes - which it will be, on account of all the player welfare subs and finishers you've brought on.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:56 - Nov 19 with 2416 views | Rsole |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:50 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
I've done interviews in our changing rooms and I'm amazed there's room for a starting 11 in there. |
That explains why we buy Oompa Loompas. [Post edited 19 Nov 17:57]
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| Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you ?
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 18:04 - Nov 19 with 2391 views | essextaxiboy |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:26 - Nov 19 by Northernr |
Of course.
Just give in. What's the point? We know it'll happen.
I suspect next thing will be like internationals where your whole squad is effectively on the bench. |
That turned me off of international football . I havnt watched an England game for years |  | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 20:25 - Nov 19 with 2241 views | Hoopsie |
You really want it? You wait! It’s coming
Not long then we have basketball type rotational substitution with a squad of 25-30 players where players freely rotate in and out. A game can end with entire different 11 and then some
You know it will eventually come to this |  |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 20:53 - Nov 19 with 2191 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 20:25 - Nov 19 by Hoopsie |
You really want it? You wait! It’s coming
Not long then we have basketball type rotational substitution with a squad of 25-30 players where players freely rotate in and out. A game can end with entire different 11 and then some
You know it will eventually come to this |
I suppose it's one way to crack the American market.
Take out all the flair and individuality and make the game all about muscle, athleticism, and 'set plays'.
Not my idea of the beautiful game. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 00:27 - Nov 20 with 2000 views | Boston |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 20:53 - Nov 19 by KensalT |
I suppose it's one way to crack the American market.
Take out all the flair and individuality and make the game all about muscle, athleticism, and 'set plays'.
Not my idea of the beautiful game. |
Narrow window that, the beautiful game. Depends where you think the shite getting kicked out of you cloggers, playing on something that resembled the Somme, era ended. | |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 01:05 - Nov 20 with 1975 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 00:27 - Nov 20 by Boston |
Narrow window that, the beautiful game. Depends where you think the shite getting kicked out of you cloggers, playing on something that resembled the Somme, era ended. |
Fair point.
Apparently the phrase "Beautiful Game" was coined by Pele in 1977.
To be fair he'd had a couple of decades getting lumps kicked out of him by then.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/sports/world-cup-2022/what-is-jogo-bonito-explaini
'Who first called it jogo bonito?
Brazilian football legend Pelé is largely responsible for popularizing jogo bonito. In 1977, Pelé named his autobiography “My Life and the Beautiful Game” where the dedication reads, “I dedicate this book to all the people who have made this great game the Beautiful Game.” '
https://news.sky.com/story/pele-embodied-the-idea-of-football-as-the-beautiful-g
"Pele, arguably the greatest footballer of all time, was Brazil's all-time leading scorer, with 77 goals in 92 matches for his country.
The three-time World Cup winner embodied the idea of football as "the beautiful game", one played with skill, speed, and imagination." [Post edited 20 Nov 1:21]
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 02:46 - Nov 20 with 1870 views | VancouverHoop |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 20:25 - Nov 19 by Hoopsie |
You really want it? You wait! It’s coming
Not long then we have basketball type rotational substitution with a squad of 25-30 players where players freely rotate in and out. A game can end with entire different 11 and then some
You know it will eventually come to this |
Yup.
Years ago, on another forum, I remember joking that Man United should keep the aging David Bircham on their payroll as, one day, he'd be handy coming off the bench just to take free-kicks.
The sport we love continues to head in that direction. There'll be "special teams" for corners and other dead ball stuations. Coaches calling time-outs. Plus continuous substitutions so that a game that once last 90 minutes or so will run well over two hours — plus commercial breaks. | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 05:34 - Nov 20 with 1790 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 17:30 - Nov 19 by KensalT |
The article does say that some European leagues have 23 players in the matchday squad!
Not sure the facilities at QPR could handle that many! [Post edited 19 Nov 17:31]
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I asked this question a while back, after looking at the line-ups and bench sizes, for a game in Serie A. Not sure if I got an answer as to why Italian sides seemed to have a teamsheet that read like the cast from 'Zulu', while we had to make do with a paltry seven or eight.
Oh to tell Gianni Infantile to just eff off! |  |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 07:41 - Nov 20 with 1704 views | davman |
Here's an idea. Shrink the size of the leagues.
Reduce the number of teams in the Champions League.
Remove pointless UEFA qualification programmes (Serbia, Andorra, Albania, etc,) resulting in less international football.
Remove World Club Championship especially if it involves teams who have won f-all in the last few years. |  |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 08:03 - Nov 20 with 1675 views | Tonto |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 07:41 - Nov 20 by davman |
Here's an idea. Shrink the size of the leagues.
Reduce the number of teams in the Champions League.
Remove pointless UEFA qualification programmes (Serbia, Andorra, Albania, etc,) resulting in less international football.
Remove World Club Championship especially if it involves teams who have won f-all in the last few years. |
But Davman, those are thebtournaments that sponsors want to see allowing FIFA and their favourite clubs more money and widening the gap between the haves and have nots. Why would you want to do that? Are you a communist?  |  |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 09:11 - Nov 20 with 1580 views | KensalT |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 02:46 - Nov 20 by VancouverHoop |
Yup.
Years ago, on another forum, I remember joking that Man United should keep the aging David Bircham on their payroll as, one day, he'd be handy coming off the bench just to take free-kicks.
The sport we love continues to head in that direction. There'll be "special teams" for corners and other dead ball stuations. Coaches calling time-outs. Plus continuous substitutions so that a game that once last 90 minutes or so will run well over two hours — plus commercial breaks. |
He could make a comeback for Inter Miami as a Kicking Specialist.
He's not that much older than Lionel Messi.
Kerching! | | | |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 10:43 - Nov 20 with 1428 views | loftboy |
3 |  |
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| How many subs should be allowed? on 11:07 - Nov 20 with 1377 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| How many subs should be allowed? on 10:43 - Nov 20 by loftboy |
3 |
And they can only be used if the player coming off is carrying one of his own body parts. | |
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