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Would it be fair to say that the worse QPR perform then the better Cook and Dunne look?
Be interesting to see if Ronnie starts Saturday, we need to progress the ball forward at home somehow.
I think it's the other way round, Wilkins. The better/deeper Cooke and Dunne sit, the worse we play as a progressive entity (passing, moving through the thirds, shooting etc. etc.). I agree that, in the continued absence of our glass-limbed CB, Edwards is likely to be vital in bringing the ball out and getting us up the pitch.
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 15:19 - Jan 22 by stainrods_elbow
I think it's the other way round, Wilkins. The better/deeper Cooke and Dunne sit, the worse we play as a progressive entity (passing, moving through the thirds, shooting etc. etc.). I agree that, in the continued absence of our glass-limbed CB, Edwards is likely to be vital in bringing the ball out and getting us up the pitch.
[Post edited 22 Jan 15:20]
We're all goin' up the pitch….
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 16:30 - Jan 22 with 449 views
I'm missing Marti's pragmatism, tbh. Coventry away was the catalyst for a change this season, and it went well, but it shouldn't take another absolute pumping to start to make obvious adjustments.
I'm not saying a change will instantly work and make us amazing, but I can tell you what isn't working....
Also the call for a return to Edwards because of his forward passing is fine, but you do need someone to show and receive it. Chair will offer that and will be huge for the success of Edwards, but who are we playing through in the meantime? Madsen is the obvious choice in this team, but if he's outnumbered in the middle, the strikers are used to direct / channel balls, and the wingers are sat deep with the rest of the team, then Edwards won't make as much difference while we continue to play this way.
ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 16:44 - Jan 22 with 416 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 15:17 - Jan 22 by stainrods_elbow
So, you'll be directing your POV to every other poster on here (including Clive) who has 'bitched and moaned' about the horroshow at Stoke (and to a marginally lesser extent, Oxford), will you?
Presumably, you'd like a message board where everyone just comments favourably and quietly on all things QPR, and no one ever ventures any opinion because they're not 'qualified'.
If so, to repeat, why are you shovelling all this at my door?
Because, as I have said directly to you on multiple occasions and will keep repeating until the message finally sinks in, you are the ONLY poster on here who consistently refuses to give balance and nuance to what you write, and vehemently throws their weight behind a jaundiced viewpoint that you push aggressively to the point of openly demeaning anyone who dares to contradict what you have to say.
Clive is a brilliant example of exactly what you DON'T do. Yes, he may have bitched and moaned, but he was very clear in saying that he gets that this isn't 1976 anymore, and there may be some unpalatable truths about who we are as a club and how that impacts everyday decisions that we just have to suck up and get on with.
Clive engages with everyone on an equal footing, and takes time to give context to what he writes. You on the other hand seem to believe that you saying what you say in the often obnoxious tone you choose to employ should be good enough for everyone to take as gospel and get mortally offended when some of us on here tell you exactly what we think of your mistaken assumptions.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:20 - Jan 22 with 322 views
If I'm 'jaundiced', according to you, I'm searching in vain for any sign of balance in your post pleading for balance. The irony of this, however, seems to be lost on you.
I never claim to be 'balanced', and I call things out as I find them - in fact, I have repeatedly explained that a 'fanatic' is, by definition not reasonable. Sh/e is an enthusaist, immoderate, excessive, exaggerated. For me, the main advocacy in life is devil's advocacy, one advantage of which is it can draw other the bile and hypocrisy of others. In life, however, I'm actually, if anything, too nice, as I've often been told, believe it or believe it not.
If you don't like my opinions, so be it - a minority of people agree with me, regardless, both on the site and, from time to time, in kind private messages that encourage me not to be browbeaten by the haters.
Where I can, I give data, reasons, history, and context to what I write, but posters like you choose to disregard this to prosecute an image of me that is a matter for you, not for me. If this antagonises you, it isn't intended to - it's simply (paradoxically) a calm statement of happy equanimity on my part.
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 15:13 - Jan 22 by stainrods_elbow
You see, Bklyn, I don't always feel there's some occulted 'other side'. As Roy Keane puts it, your eyes don't lie to you. If we can't string three passes together or have a shot in goal or are coached to sit down for 10 minutes to cheat QPR fans and game of football, because the manager feels we can't win playing properly, that doesn't require some kind of professional meta-analysis. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably, and unsurpsingly, a duck.
I'm also not sure what decent 'sanity' is in these things. For me, as I've argued, fans are irrational, immoderate nutjobs - not just me ;-). For those of us whose works is led by language, the clue's in the word:
fanatic(n.) 1520s, "insane person," from Latin fanaticus "mad, enthusiastic, inspired by a god," also "furious, mad," originally, "pertaining to a temple," from fanum "temple, shrine, consecrated place," related to festus "festive" (see feast (n.)). Meaning "zealous person, person affected by enthusiasm" is from 1640s. As an adjective, in English, 1530s, "furious;" meaning "characterized by excessive enthusiasm," especially in religion (of Nonconformists), is from 1640s.
It's not a meta-analysis though is it? It's just an imaginary conversation with a football professional, which we are not.
I'm sure there would be clear things you or I wouldn't agree with Julien on at the minute - I don't like the goalkeeper sitting down trick and fair enough that is an example of something we seem to have adopted, though it's never a 10 min stoppage - not that that matters though it's still daft an unnecessary.
The sanity definition is accepted - 'normal boundaries' is my point on that. I'm not going to suggest what that looks like really - that would be the duck scenario.
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 16:30 - Jan 22 by simmo
I'm missing Marti's pragmatism, tbh. Coventry away was the catalyst for a change this season, and it went well, but it shouldn't take another absolute pumping to start to make obvious adjustments.
I'm not saying a change will instantly work and make us amazing, but I can tell you what isn't working....
Also the call for a return to Edwards because of his forward passing is fine, but you do need someone to show and receive it. Chair will offer that and will be huge for the success of Edwards, but who are we playing through in the meantime? Madsen is the obvious choice in this team, but if he's outnumbered in the middle, the strikers are used to direct / channel balls, and the wingers are sat deep with the rest of the team, then Edwards won't make as much difference while we continue to play this way.
It did make a difference when JCS was playing, certainly at home we had a little 3/4 match run where we looked really good going forward. I'd go with Ronnie and see if we can recreate that.
If the performances continue as they are when you do that then I think you are probably right and we might need to add an extra midfield player to the team.
Away from home is more where the problems are at the moment, I don't think we've looked any good on the road all season bar that Wrexham away game.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:29 - Jan 22 with 309 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:20 - Jan 22 by stainrods_elbow
If I'm 'jaundiced', according to you, I'm searching in vain for any sign of balance in your post pleading for balance. The irony of this, however, seems to be lost on you.
I never claim to be 'balanced', and I call things out as I find them - in fact, I have repeatedly explained that a 'fanatic' is, by definition not reasonable. Sh/e is an enthusaist, immoderate, excessive, exaggerated. For me, the main advocacy in life is devil's advocacy, one advantage of which is it can draw other the bile and hypocrisy of others. In life, however, I'm actually, if anything, too nice, as I've often been told, believe it or believe it not.
If you don't like my opinions, so be it - a minority of people agree with me, regardless, both on the site and, from time to time, in kind private messages that encourage me not to be browbeaten by the haters.
Where I can, I give data, reasons, history, and context to what I write, but posters like you choose to disregard this to prosecute an image of me that is a matter for you, not for me. If this antagonises you, it isn't intended to - it's simply (paradoxically) a calm statement of happy equanimity on my part.
At the end of the day, it's only football.
Have a great day!
Hmmm - let's just say I shall agree to disagree with much of what you have written.
One thing I will however agree with you on - you are the only poster I tend to not respond to in a balanced way, often deliberately to make the point about how I feel about what you have often written (or more specifically how you have chosen to write it).
I am very tempted to bite on your point about picking up the hypocrisy of others, but given the fact that you have been unusually conciliatory in your final summary, I shan't on this occasion.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:30 - Jan 22 with 306 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 12:33 - Jan 22 by Northernr
Well I could basically write a whole match preview on that (maybe tomorrow!) but I think a couple of things...
1 - We naturally sit a lot deeper when they're our centre backs. So probably no coincidence we've stopped conceding goals, because they're good centre backs and it's very hard to break down when they're standing on top of the goalkeeper. But also no surprise we're struggling even more to progress the ball. As we always say, Edwards/JCS look like Gods in this team because they carry it out and progress it.
2 - Their outlets on both wings are playing really poorly. There's a big difference atm between spreading the play to Ilias Chair and spreading it to Karamoko Dembele.
3 - The whole team's "out ball" is not here now Burrell is injured. We can't just knock it and turn the full back around now, because nobody is quick enough to chase it. Actually wouldn't be surprised to see this Coventry lad getting some action quite quickly.
4 - It's not the first time during their time here that these two, Cook and particularly Dunne, have stuck their hand up and put their shoulder to the wheel for the team when things are going a bit awry. You've been quite disparaging of Dunne, particularly as a right back, and wanted him shifted on, whereas when he was going to Sheff Utd last year I said this could be a very big mistake. Not everybody can be a development prospect. Not everybody here can be some 21-year-old data pick up for "the project". You have to have players who care about the place and want to be here because it's QPR and it's a great club. If you go too far the other way and your whole squad is a) very young and inexperienced and b) only here because they've been told 'play well for 18 months and we'll sell you to a proper club' then things can quickly go wrong when the going gets tough. Who's playing well at the moment? Who's playing poorly. It's pretty stark.
It's why I'm not mad about the idea of letting Field go. Nourry said something I was really impressed with about 18 months ago when he was tying down Dunne, JCS, Field, Smyth types to new deals, much to the chagrin of Twitter, about having a spine and a core of players who love QPR and love being here. If you've got a squad of 11 players who are all young, inexperienced and only here because they've been told it'll be a stepping stone to something better then when you're stuck at Oxford in a howling gale on a Tuesday night in january don't be surprised if those lads aren't very good, while Jimmy Dunne is standing there with his body on the line making sure we get a point.
Bravo!
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:35 - Jan 22 with 297 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 13:23 - Jan 22 by R_from_afar
Can you print off 16,000 copies of point 4 and put them on the home fans' seats in time for Saturday's game, please?
Spot on. If every player is treated as a commodity for trading at a profit in short order, we'll lose the connection between the players and the fans, as well as the soul of the club.
We need some experienced, older players who not only make strong contributions but who also care deeply and like being here, who want to achieve something in their careers with us, not elsewhere.
Also, Bravo!
Dunne, Field, Chair. All locked down for 3 more seasons after this, I think (plus JCS…).
Build and develop around those 3. Have them set and maintain standards regards commitment and work rate. That will give us balance and make us more rounded.
I think, in time, someone like Mbengue might be added to that group. I don’t think he’s going to play at a higher level, but he could have a great career with us.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 18:39 - Jan 22 with 206 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 15:13 - Jan 22 by stainrods_elbow
You see, Bklyn, I don't always feel there's some occulted 'other side'. As Roy Keane puts it, your eyes don't lie to you. If we can't string three passes together or have a shot in goal or are coached to sit down for 10 minutes to cheat QPR fans and game of football, because the manager feels we can't win playing properly, that doesn't require some kind of professional meta-analysis. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably, and unsurpsingly, a duck.
I'm also not sure what decent 'sanity' is in these things. For me, as I've argued, fans are irrational, immoderate nutjobs - not just me ;-). For those of us whose works is led by language, the clue's in the word:
fanatic(n.) 1520s, "insane person," from Latin fanaticus "mad, enthusiastic, inspired by a god," also "furious, mad," originally, "pertaining to a temple," from fanum "temple, shrine, consecrated place," related to festus "festive" (see feast (n.)). Meaning "zealous person, person affected by enthusiasm" is from 1640s. As an adjective, in English, 1530s, "furious;" meaning "characterized by excessive enthusiasm," especially in religion (of Nonconformists), is from 1640s.
I fully accept that the last two games have been grim from a quality perspective, but at least there has been no lack of effort.
I do think we should put them in context, though: - Our best striker, Burrell, who is key to our press and who gives us pace up front, is out - The only two players we have who can dribble a football successfully on a regular basis, Chair and Saito, are also out.
This, understandably, makes us a bit toothless and undermines our creativity. It's frustrating but there are no easy solutions to it.
Thankfully, in a surprising break with tradition, the team has got its act together defensively and - jinx alert - managed to ride out this period of limited attacking and creative options without racking up a string of defeats. I wonder how many points we'll have deducted for this sorcery.
Burrell, Saito and Chair can't come back soon enough, though [pray].
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 18:44 - Jan 22 with 185 views
I am absolutely loving Dunne and Cook "thou shall not pass defending" maybe because I was always a defender back in the day my legs allowed me to play Sunday League.
Defending is an art and those two are huge rocks on which to build from. To get Ronnie in the team I would (as I've said many times before) go to 3 at the back with wing backs.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 18:55 - Jan 22 with 172 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 18:44 - Jan 22 by thehat
Thanks Clive - Great report as always.
I am absolutely loving Dunne and Cook "thou shall not pass defending" maybe because I was always a defender back in the day my legs allowed me to play Sunday League.
Defending is an art and those two are huge rocks on which to build from. To get Ronnie in the team I would (as I've said many times before) go to 3 at the back with wing backs.
The argument against three at the back has always been that we've got a squad full of midget tens... But at this point with the players available that's a less compelling argument, and would resolve the LB issue.
So yeah I could totally see sense in say Mbengue and Smyth as wing backs, three from Field, Morgan, Varane and Madsen in CM.
Don't for a moment think it will happen mind.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 19:40 - Jan 22 with 130 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 17:25 - Jan 22 by daveB
It did make a difference when JCS was playing, certainly at home we had a little 3/4 match run where we looked really good going forward. I'd go with Ronnie and see if we can recreate that.
If the performances continue as they are when you do that then I think you are probably right and we might need to add an extra midfield player to the team.
Away from home is more where the problems are at the moment, I don't think we've looked any good on the road all season bar that Wrexham away game.
With JCS playing we also had Burrell.
I'm not advocating we don't bring Edwards in ASAP, but I think without Chair especially, you need another option in the middle to build through
ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead
0
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 19:41 - Jan 22 with 129 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 12:33 - Jan 22 by Northernr
Well I could basically write a whole match preview on that (maybe tomorrow!) but I think a couple of things...
1 - We naturally sit a lot deeper when they're our centre backs. So probably no coincidence we've stopped conceding goals, because they're good centre backs and it's very hard to break down when they're standing on top of the goalkeeper. But also no surprise we're struggling even more to progress the ball. As we always say, Edwards/JCS look like Gods in this team because they carry it out and progress it.
2 - Their outlets on both wings are playing really poorly. There's a big difference atm between spreading the play to Ilias Chair and spreading it to Karamoko Dembele.
3 - The whole team's "out ball" is not here now Burrell is injured. We can't just knock it and turn the full back around now, because nobody is quick enough to chase it. Actually wouldn't be surprised to see this Coventry lad getting some action quite quickly.
4 - It's not the first time during their time here that these two, Cook and particularly Dunne, have stuck their hand up and put their shoulder to the wheel for the team when things are going a bit awry. You've been quite disparaging of Dunne, particularly as a right back, and wanted him shifted on, whereas when he was going to Sheff Utd last year I said this could be a very big mistake. Not everybody can be a development prospect. Not everybody here can be some 21-year-old data pick up for "the project". You have to have players who care about the place and want to be here because it's QPR and it's a great club. If you go too far the other way and your whole squad is a) very young and inexperienced and b) only here because they've been told 'play well for 18 months and we'll sell you to a proper club' then things can quickly go wrong when the going gets tough. Who's playing well at the moment? Who's playing poorly. It's pretty stark.
It's why I'm not mad about the idea of letting Field go. Nourry said something I was really impressed with about 18 months ago when he was tying down Dunne, JCS, Field, Smyth types to new deals, much to the chagrin of Twitter, about having a spine and a core of players who love QPR and love being here. If you've got a squad of 11 players who are all young, inexperienced and only here because they've been told it'll be a stepping stone to something better then when you're stuck at Oxford in a howling gale on a Tuesday night in january don't be surprised if those lads aren't very good, while Jimmy Dunne is standing there with his body on the line making sure we get a point.
Bang on, btw
ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 19:45 - Jan 22 with 126 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 19:40 - Jan 22 by simmo
With JCS playing we also had Burrell.
I'm not advocating we don't bring Edwards in ASAP, but I think without Chair especially, you need another option in the middle to build through
yeah that lack of pace up front is an issue without Burrell but when we play with Cook & Dunne what they give you defensivley the team does drop back 10 yards so Kolli and Kone or whoever is up front are getting the ball a lot deeper and in areas they can't hurt anyone.
Julien is the same as all managers though. it is very rare for them to change system unless they have to. Marti was the same and stuck with 4-2-3-1 all the time even when half the squad was injured.
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Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 20:49 - Jan 22 with 42 views
Lather, rinse, repeat – Report on 19:45 - Jan 22 by daveB
yeah that lack of pace up front is an issue without Burrell but when we play with Cook & Dunne what they give you defensivley the team does drop back 10 yards so Kolli and Kone or whoever is up front are getting the ball a lot deeper and in areas they can't hurt anyone.
Julien is the same as all managers though. it is very rare for them to change system unless they have to. Marti was the same and stuck with 4-2-3-1 all the time even when half the squad was injured.
Marti was slow on the uptake occasionally, but he always figured out a rubix cube turn that got the absolute maximum out of what he had available, and I don't recall him egregiously playing people out of position to suit a style.
I thought with the change after Coventry we had something similar with JS, who recognised a way to go back to basics and get the most out of certain players. The move to switch Dunne and Mbengue was also spot on. The frustration comes now as he refuses to not recognise that you can't make something work if you don't have the players for it.
West Brom was a turning point for me with JS and his insistence at 442 regardless, all the personnel changes without adjusting the system, so you play with Sam Field up front... To continue to stick with it even post Burrell is just mind numbing for me.
I like JS generally, and am more on the side of positive overall, but IMO to be only 2 points better off a year on from having a team with Frey as your 'best striker' shows that we're underperforming, in terms of performance if not results.
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