Forum | Good coach but bad manager by FDC

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Good coach but bad manager 12:53 - May 12 with 3749 views

This seems to be something of a mantra when discussing McClaren, every other post on here mentions it.

I'm not convinced the two roles are as distinct as many suggest, but assuming these are two discrete roles, let's consider what they entail within the context of QPR.

Coach:
- Takes players, makes them better and gets them to understand various roles and systems on the pitch. This seems like exactly what QPR's stated priority is at the moment, given that we are no longer splashing the cash, and have some promising youngsters coming through learning the ropes

Manager:
- Man-management. To me this seems more of a concern when you're dealing with big-time Charlies, which QPR are very much trying to avoid by all accounts. In fact as far as i'm aware a lot of the 'bad manager' stuff started whilst he was at Newcastle dealing with big name players.
- In-game management. Again, this to me seems more of a concern further up the league, where big teams with 25 first team players are able to change their shape more and have more players at their disposal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting this is of no importance at all, but is surely less so at this level. And I'm not sure anyone would say IH was a master of this side of the game anyway.
- Transfers. Or at least in days gone by. These days DoF tend to look after this side of the game, which is the case here.

So I'm fairly convinced that SMcC is pretty much what QPR needs at the moment, and would be pretty pleased if he does end up here. In fact I don't think I've been as pleased with the a prospective Manager since Warnock turned up. Warnock was exactly what a team with ambitions for promotion needed at the time; in this case I think someone with the coaching credentials of SMcC is precisely what a club transitioning to a culture of nurturing youth and a buy-cheap-sell-high transfer strategy needs.

Good coach but bad manager on 13:12 - May 12 with 3699 views

Esox_Lucius

Very well said, that more or less summarises how I feel about it. There has been no mention yet of Bircham's future and he may be the man motivator in the new set up. If Lee carsley also joins, then he may carry some of that burden as well. I remember him as a no nonsense midfielder in a number of top teams, represented his country and has coached and managed at a high level. Our club may be moving into a period of security AND entertainment if credentials are anything to be considered. We'll see.

The grass is always greener.

Good coach but bad manager on 13:22 - May 12 with 3671 views

timcocking

Among the most important factors influencing the success or lack of for any manager are time, budget and luck. So don't hold your breath. And lack of social media sh!t, which will never happen with Tony around.

Man management and coaching, maybe.

Good coach but bad manager on 14:22 - May 12 with 3567 views

isawqpratwcity

An interesting reductive analysis, FDC. As I don't know much about the bloke, I'd like to hear criticisms based on same from the anti-McClaren brigade. Preferably from those that can bring more to the discussion than just "Wallybrolly" and "Schteve".

Poll:

Deaths of Thatcher and Mandela this year: Sad or Glad?

Good coach but bad manager on 14:35 - May 12 with 3547 views

FDC

Good coach but bad manager on 14:22 - May 12 by isawqpratwcity
An interesting reductive analysis, FDC. As I don't know much about the bloke, I'd like to hear criticisms based on same from the anti-McClaren brigade. Preferably from those that can bring more to the discussion than just "Wallybrolly" and "Schteve".

You're right, it is very reductive, and I wouldn't really claim that it's anything like as straightforward as I'm suggesting above: but as far as these things can be predicted, he seems a good fit for the club at this point in time.

Good coach but bad manager on 14:45 - May 12 with 3513 views

isawqpratwcity

Good coach but bad manager on 14:35 - May 12 by FDC
You're right, it is very reductive, and I wouldn't really claim that it's anything like as straightforward as I'm suggesting above: but as far as these things can be predicted, he seems a good fit for the club at this point in time.

I agree, but that's no recommendation, because I don't know much. That's why I'd like to hear about what his specific strengths and weaknesses are and how he might succeed or fail with our current situation.

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Deaths of Thatcher and Mandela this year: Sad or Glad?

Good coach but bad manager on 14:45 - May 12 with 3513 views

LowerloftLad

He will be sacked by March and we will be saying he was great as a coach under Harry awful as a manager but Tony never gets it wrong does he

Ohhhhhh bobby zamora

Good coach but bad manager on 14:57 - May 12 with 3467 views

isawqpratwcity

Good coach but bad manager on 14:45 - May 12 by LowerloftLad
He will be sacked by March and we will be saying he was great as a coach under Harry awful as a manager but Tony never gets it wrong does he

Was he a great coach under Harry? I had the general impression that we were playing better when he was here, but I wouldn't be able to identify in what way he contributed. IIRC, our results declined after he left.

Whether you think he is right, or wrong, for us, speak up and tell us how.

[Post edited 12 May 2018 14:58]

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Deaths of Thatcher and Mandela this year: Sad or Glad?

Good coach but bad manager on 17:30 - May 12 with 3327 views

PunteR

I think the wally in the brolly tag is unfair. Its a poisoned chalice, the England job and the media are utter scumbags when it comes to managers.

Wasn't he Fergie's assistant for a number of the Man utd glory years, winning the treble etc.?
Getting the England job takes some doing.
I think he's decent as a coach, we'll see how he does managing us though.
I really hope our fans get behind him otherwise he's on a hiding to nothing.
With the amount of managers TF and Co have go through the law of averages means we will no doubt end up with a decent one at some point.

Occasional providers of half decent House music.

Good coach but bad manager on 17:37 - May 12 with 3314 views

ingeminate

Agree with some of that but not the man management bit.
Absolutely vital esp with a young squad that will go through a rocky patch at some stage.

	If not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. PG Wodehouse
Poll:	Should Jimmy be sacked?

Good coach but bad manager on 17:45 - May 12 with 3288 views

FDC

Good coach but bad manager on 17:37 - May 12 by ingeminate
Agree with some of that but not the man management bit. Absolutely vital esp with a young squad that will go through a rocky patch at some stage.

That's a fair point.

Good coach but bad manager on 17:50 - May 12 with 3274 views

PunteR

Good coach but bad manager on 17:37 - May 12 by ingeminate
Agree with some of that but not the man management bit. Absolutely vital esp with a young squad that will go through a rocky patch at some stage.

I think a good coach doesn't really need a man management approach. Improving players and good training sessions trumps any man management skills imo.

Occasional providers of half decent House music.

Good coach but bad manager on 17:50 - May 12 with 3274 views

BklynRanger

If McLaren does eventually 'come in' my one hope would be that he brings an assistant with him who can and will take over when he inevitably goes. Carsley does seem to have a good pedigree as an Asst Manager, so if the idea is that McLaren mentors him and there's a bit of continuity to it all then fair enough.

Not that Carsley is necessarily the answer, I just can't be arsed going back to the 'Big Name For 10 Months' stuff and this is what it feels like to me at the moment.

Good coach but bad manager on 18:08 - May 12 with 3240 views

ngbqpr

One of the other threads posted a link to SMc's win ratio and suggested it was poor...I was actually pleasantly surprised...:

FC Twente 2008 - 2010 62.89%
Won title when up against Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord. Fantastic achievement.
Derby County 2013 - 2015 53.68%
First spell at Derby - not too shabby.
FC Twente 2012 - 2013 50.51%
I'd thought he was a flop second time round at Twente - this suggests he did ok, just not as well as first time round.
England 2006 - 2007 50.00%
Poisoned chalice
Derby County 2016-2017 45.83%
As with Twente...his 'second time round' stats not half as bad as I'd have guessed, just not quite as good as first stint.
Middlesbrough 2001 - 2006 38.80%
Got them to UEFA Cup final - close to 40% for an 'unfashionable' team in the Prem is fine.
VfL Wolfsburg 2010 - 2011 29.17%
OK. not a success here, tho I've no idea why it went wrong.
Newcastle United 2015 - 2016 23.53%
I never thought this was a good fit for either party, clearly not a success, but it's taken a manager of Rafa's standards to succeed in spite of Ashley.
Nottingham Forest 2011 - 2011 23.08%
Only there 13 games when Fawaz was doing his best Briatore impression and the place was a basket case.

Arguably, his relative successes outweigh his failures...?

As I say, I won't pretend to be excited by the idea of him coming in, but the above has actually encouraged me a bit.

[Post edited 12 May 2018 18:09]

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Good coach but bad manager on 18:17 - May 12 with 3214 views

PunteR

Good coach but bad manager on 18:08 - May 12 by ngbqpr

[Post edited 12 May 2018 18:09]

Yeh i'd say that quite encouraging. Not too bad at all.

Occasional providers of half decent House music.

Good coach but bad manager on 08:07 - May 13 with 2982 views

wood_hoop

Good coach but bad manager on 17:50 - May 12 by PunteR
I think a good coach doesn't really need a man management approach. Improving players and good training sessions trumps any man management skills imo.

Man management is maybe more important than you think, improving skills does go a long way in the attitudes of your players, along with this is the respect players should garner towards the man that calls the shots.

SM is generally regarded as a good coach, I think that is a good platform in which he would start with players, on paper would start with a squad that is not seen as one expected to achieve anything more than survival in this division and try at least to keep us away from the lower half of the league.

He would have the chance to not only increase playing ability but to instill the maturity that is needed especially in young players to reach the higher realms of the proffesssion.

In my eyes not as bad as an appointment as others may see, his experience of international management and seeing the level so called 'top players' need to be, should give him a good understanding of what is required to maintain and improve a group of players at this time whose abilities may not have been anywhere near stretched.

The managing part of the game is vital, improving skill levels, in tactics, also in personal handling, arm round shoulder, kick up the arse, whatever it takes to blend a whole group of differing personalities into a force that believes and wants to commit to meet the aims of your management.

SM may not set the pulses racing but he does seem to have more pluses than minuses and if the stupid media tags can be put to one side, imo would not be such a big risk as others.

Good coach but bad manager on 08:45 - May 13 with 2900 views

CamberleyR

If you take his first spell at Derby, then he does seem to be good working around young players. I had a look at the starting line-up for the play off final and was quite surprised of the average age of the Derby team that day. The average age of the team was 24.5 and the outfield players 23.9

They had four outfield players 22 or younger that day; Wisdom, Hendrick, Thorne and Hughes. I'd suspect he'd played most of them throughout that season as well. Would bode well for the promising youngsters we have at the club currently.

[Post edited 13 May 2018 8:47]

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Good coach but bad manager on 10:01 - May 13 with 2810 views

ibnumber10

Wasn’t he the manager when Boro won the League cup?

Good coach but bad manager on 10:22 - May 13 with 2772 views

CamberleyR

Good coach but bad manager on 10:01 - May 13 by ibnumber10
Wasn’t he the manager when Boro won the League cup?

Yes, he's one of only two English managers to win a trophy this century, the other being our erstwhile 'boss' Harold Redknapp Esq.

In fact in the last 30 years only 10 English managers have won a trophy. Apart from the two above it's:
1996 - Brian Little
1995 - Joe Royle
1995 - Roy Evans
1994 - Ron Atkinson
1992 - Howard Wilkinson
1991 - Terry Venables
1990 - Brian Clough
1988 - Bobby Gould

So that's two English managers in the last 22 years have won trophies. Pretty poor really.

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Good coach but bad manager on 10:36 - May 13 with 2739 views

hook_hoops

Here are the views of some Derby County fans on Steve Mc's time in charge. I think overall quite positive.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/29129-was-steve-mcclaren-ultimately-a-failure-at-dcfc/

(No subject) (n/t) on 12:22 - May 13 with 2609 views

olderR

(No subject) (n/t) on 12:22 - May 13 with 2609 views

olderR

Good coach but bad manager on 12:30 - May 13 with 2602 views

Esox_Lucius

Good coach but bad manager on 14:45 - May 12 by LowerloftLad
He will be sacked by March and we will be saying he was great as a coach under Harry awful as a manager but Tony never gets it wrong does he

ITK?

The grass is always greener.

Good coach but bad manager on 13:40 - May 13 with 2540 views

rsonist

Coach and manager can be hugely distinct roles. You only have to recall Warnock bollocking the dressing room over Ramsey's head. Or better yet...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5260199/Jamaal-Lascelles-Newca

Two seasons ago, the Newcastle dressing room Lascelles walked into was a shambles. On one occasion when McClaren asked his players to get off the team bus for a walk, they simply said no.

'The players' heads were all over the place back then,' he recalled.

'Yes, it (dissent) was there. Completely. It was bad. Steve is obviously a well-respected manager but there is only so much you can do when you have 20 players refusing to do things and not taking anything seriously.

'That's how it was but the minute this manager [Benitez] came in it changed."

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