| Advise Please (HR Related ) 12:52 - Jan 5 with 23404 views | paulparker |
ok so at work we have a woman who is very, very , very racist and outspoken
I have now clashed with this woman as she has been "bullying" other people and I cannot sit by and watch that ( I hate bullys) , to the trained eye I look like the aggressor because i stood up for her and told her to f off as a male I can see how this looks
I have now made a complaint to the upper management about her "comments " about other races , some of it is very near the knuckle
now am I wrong to do this? have I opened up a huge can of worms for myself
most of the office floor are blanking me
as anyone else had to do this ?
|  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |  |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 12:59 - Jan 5 with 7410 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Is there a union presence in your workplace? |  | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:26 - Jan 5 with 7330 views | Superhoop83 |
Fair play to you.
You may well have opened a can of worms but you've done the right thing by your colleagues. I had to leave a firm because of a bully to whom no-one would dare stand up, even though the two of us were at the same (senior) level, and people are probably keeping their heads down at your place for the same reason.
Stick by your guns and the management should support you. If they don't then they could be in difficulty. |  |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:36 - Jan 5 with 7279 views | Antti_Heinola |
Not wrong to make the complaint mate, but bit worried about 'to the trained eye I look like the aggressor' - what happened? not blaming you, I hope I'd do the same, but that sounds a bit concerning. |  |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:45 - Jan 5 with 7241 views | Ashdown_Ranger |
Was it the right thing to stand up to a racist?
Definitely YES.
Has it opened a can of worms?
Quite possibly...
Does the company have a policy on racism (over and above the legal stipulation)? I know business owners who are themselves racist and would never employ east Europeans, still less black or Asian workers.
How big is your company - local business, national, international? Does it have a 'proper' HR department?
Do you know if you're being blanked by colleagues because they somehow accept, or are part of, the racist bullying that you've witnessed?
Or are they blanking you because they perceive your telling a female colleague to 'F*** off' is in itself bullying and/or aggressive behaviour on your part?
Tricky one for sure... |  | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:50 - Jan 5 with 7224 views | paulparker |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:36 - Jan 5 by Antti_Heinola |
Not wrong to make the complaint mate, but bit worried about 'to the trained eye I look like the aggressor' - what happened? not blaming you, I hope I'd do the same, but that sounds a bit concerning. |
as a bald headed , bloating fella I look to the trained eye like a Chelsea fan hence the I look like the aggressor
story cut short was she was trying to belittle a work colleague by shouting them down and getting into something that wasn't her business , I stood up to her and told her to mind her own effing business(hence looking like the aggressor ) , she proceeded to call me all sorts and below at me like a shrieking banshee , I thought sod this ive had enough of her and made a complaint about her behaviour and racist comments towards staff members and just people in general
now I have told my boss about her "comments" and treatment of certain ethnic members of staff about 3 or 4 times this has gone by and large by the wayside and ignored , (we have no union) , the problem is there is a little clique developed where a group of them are doing it but the higher ups don't want to deal with it
the bosses wont get involved because the work we do is very complex and it would be nigh on impossible to train any one to do this if someone left or was fired ,
I don't like telling tales or grassing people up , and ive more than likely marked my own card with the company but enoughs enough | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:50 - Jan 5 with 7213 views | PlanetHonneywood |
The telling her to 'F off' is unfortunate and yes, you might have opened up a can of worms, and it will really all depend on who comes out of the woodwork to corroborate your allegations, and getting the old blank stares is a worry.
A number of years as an employment lawyer in the UK left me with a tainted view about HR departments; as being nothing more than a total shower unable to make a decision due to being too scared to offend anyone.
Expect a counter-complaint from her. In which case, HR will wet themselves most likely, and seek to have some form of mediation. However, you have done the right thing but from hereon, it will stand and fall on how your colleagues react.
But, one thing to read up on, is victimisation. Its often misunderstood by people, but is actually a form of protection for folks who do what is known as a 'protected act' and I think that raising a complaint about racism as you have, will/might fall in that bracket. To that end, you should not be 'victimised' for doing so.
As has been asked earlier; are you in a TU? Times like these the decline in trade union membership is often regretted.
In relation to the person you've accused: be courteous/professional and wherever possible, have someone with you who can back up your side of the story. I have seen it before where complainants have had a difficult time of it and sounds like you're working with some spineless souls. |  |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:54 - Jan 5 with 7186 views | toboboly |
A lot of passive aggressive bullying at my place. I stood up for 2 years due to one person being mistreated terribly. It never helped as the management here are cnts and couldn't manage to blow their own noses.
However the person being treated like crap is now one of my best mates and we both got out and into a different office.
To this day I do not talk to the people who were cnts. I feel my life is enriched much more than had I let them be cnts without a word against it.
edit - should have said that being blanked at work isn't great but beong able to look yourself in the mirror is better. [Post edited 5 Jan 2018 13:55]
|  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:57 - Jan 5 with 7169 views | paulparker |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:45 - Jan 5 by Ashdown_Ranger |
Was it the right thing to stand up to a racist?
Definitely YES.
Has it opened a can of worms?
Quite possibly...
Does the company have a policy on racism (over and above the legal stipulation)? I know business owners who are themselves racist and would never employ east Europeans, still less black or Asian workers.
How big is your company - local business, national, international? Does it have a 'proper' HR department?
Do you know if you're being blanked by colleagues because they somehow accept, or are part of, the racist bullying that you've witnessed?
Or are they blanking you because they perceive your telling a female colleague to 'F*** off' is in itself bullying and/or aggressive behaviour on your part?
Tricky one for sure... |
its a relatively big company and is on the stock market and yes they have an HR team
im being blanked by most people as this person is "Mrs popular" and just seen as someone who just "speaks her mind" and "tells it like it is " when in truth she and her like minded friends are bullies
as people know im not left wing or a liberal and im not easily offended by any stretch of the imagination but this woman is near the knuckle and some of the stuff leaves even me squirming and embarrassed
I suppose its to late now the problem is the other work colleagues backing up the truth to what ive said | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:04 - Jan 5 with 7136 views | The_Mole |
Sounds like my kinda gal, eh Bazza?! 
All jokes aside, bully's must be put on their arse; well that's what I was taught as a kid anyway and it worked for me!!
Stand your ground pal |  | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:14 - Jan 5 with 7101 views | paulparker |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:50 - Jan 5 by PlanetHonneywood |
The telling her to 'F off' is unfortunate and yes, you might have opened up a can of worms, and it will really all depend on who comes out of the woodwork to corroborate your allegations, and getting the old blank stares is a worry.
A number of years as an employment lawyer in the UK left me with a tainted view about HR departments; as being nothing more than a total shower unable to make a decision due to being too scared to offend anyone.
Expect a counter-complaint from her. In which case, HR will wet themselves most likely, and seek to have some form of mediation. However, you have done the right thing but from hereon, it will stand and fall on how your colleagues react.
But, one thing to read up on, is victimisation. Its often misunderstood by people, but is actually a form of protection for folks who do what is known as a 'protected act' and I think that raising a complaint about racism as you have, will/might fall in that bracket. To that end, you should not be 'victimised' for doing so.
As has been asked earlier; are you in a TU? Times like these the decline in trade union membership is often regretted.
In relation to the person you've accused: be courteous/professional and wherever possible, have someone with you who can back up your side of the story. I have seen it before where complainants have had a difficult time of it and sounds like you're working with some spineless souls. |
Great Advice mate thanks ,
I know they are talking to certain people about her , hopefully they speak up, the problem is the two ladies who have been on the receiving end of all this are two of the most timid , nicest people going who wont want to get involved or say boo to a goose
this woman is quite over powering (if your of the timid nature)
what also put the cat amongst the pigeons was me calling her a vile racist to her face
she will counter act as she has the brass neck to do that I just hope people speak up
as i have been bringing this up pretty much every one 2 one for the last 6 months | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:52 - Jan 5 with 6989 views | hopphoops |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:14 - Jan 5 by paulparker |
Great Advice mate thanks ,
I know they are talking to certain people about her , hopefully they speak up, the problem is the two ladies who have been on the receiving end of all this are two of the most timid , nicest people going who wont want to get involved or say boo to a goose
this woman is quite over powering (if your of the timid nature)
what also put the cat amongst the pigeons was me calling her a vile racist to her face
she will counter act as she has the brass neck to do that I just hope people speak up
as i have been bringing this up pretty much every one 2 one for the last 6 months |
Good luck Paul, stick to your guns.
Generally if you have a dodgy feeling about someone in the office, them almost everyone else will too. Whether or not they'll stick their neck out is another thing. |  |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:52 - Jan 5 with 6988 views | Dorse |
You are absolutely right PP.
Firstly, forget the whole legal aspect: the company will have a code of practice which will be part of your Ts & Cs that everyone signs up to when they join the firm. Racism in any form will fall outside the code of practice and anyone found to be using language like that can expect to be warned about their behaviour. Repeated use may result in disciplinary measures.
Secondly, by raising it with the management, it has been identified and should be investigated. If you've already coughed to calling her out (even if you used fairly agricultural language - always own up to it at the time and give reasons for using it), they should not take it out on you but she will try to make you the aggressor. As you've already told them what you did, they can deal with that as a separate issue (mild slap to the wrist).
Finally, get your union rep involved as early as possible. If you have a meeting with management, ask for them to be there too. Remember, whatever you have said to her was in response to HER racism. You may be in the wrong in the choice of words used but if they are going to have a pop at you then they must also deal with her. The difference, however, is that your language may have been an inappropriate choice but hers may be illegal.
I have had to have discussions like this in work (obviously before I became self-employed). The person using the racist language often falls back on either 'I have the freedom to express myself', 'it was a joke - everyone laughed' or, my favourite, they'll take a swipe at your own heritage to prove some sort of point. The best was when a student of mine (a fully paid up member of Nick Griffin's lot, I $hit you not) told me that I was only calling his racism out because I am Jewish. Oy vey.
You are in the right. She is not and any company worth its salt needs to address this. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:59 - Jan 5 with 6964 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 13:50 - Jan 5 by paulparker |
as a bald headed , bloating fella I look to the trained eye like a Chelsea fan hence the I look like the aggressor
story cut short was she was trying to belittle a work colleague by shouting them down and getting into something that wasn't her business , I stood up to her and told her to mind her own effing business(hence looking like the aggressor ) , she proceeded to call me all sorts and below at me like a shrieking banshee , I thought sod this ive had enough of her and made a complaint about her behaviour and racist comments towards staff members and just people in general
now I have told my boss about her "comments" and treatment of certain ethnic members of staff about 3 or 4 times this has gone by and large by the wayside and ignored , (we have no union) , the problem is there is a little clique developed where a group of them are doing it but the higher ups don't want to deal with it
the bosses wont get involved because the work we do is very complex and it would be nigh on impossible to train any one to do this if someone left or was fired ,
I don't like telling tales or grassing people up , and ive more than likely marked my own card with the company but enoughs enough |
in that case mate, hope it sorts out for you. A few people there sound like proper pieces of work. There's no way any company in this day and age should be dismissing your complaints about racism in the workplace. Might be worth writing down everything you can remember they she/they have said, and also trying to recall the previous complaints you made and when you made them. Good luck. | |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:01 - Jan 5 with 6954 views | RangersDave |
You know, i find the speech record function of the i phone very handy, especially for situations like this in a whats said, and what context situation.
If it goes on simply record it, back it up at hoe with the date and time, and create an irrefutable case against her without anyone else's knowledge.
Sneaky i know, but if the spineless ones wont stand up for you, you have to do it yourself. This way you'r evidence is far better IMHO than their silence and you just saying it happened.
Man or woman, boss or director, its uncalled for and wrong in this day and age.
cheers
Dave |  |
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:13 - Jan 5 with 6922 views | paulparker |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 14:52 - Jan 5 by Dorse |
You are absolutely right PP.
Firstly, forget the whole legal aspect: the company will have a code of practice which will be part of your Ts & Cs that everyone signs up to when they join the firm. Racism in any form will fall outside the code of practice and anyone found to be using language like that can expect to be warned about their behaviour. Repeated use may result in disciplinary measures.
Secondly, by raising it with the management, it has been identified and should be investigated. If you've already coughed to calling her out (even if you used fairly agricultural language - always own up to it at the time and give reasons for using it), they should not take it out on you but she will try to make you the aggressor. As you've already told them what you did, they can deal with that as a separate issue (mild slap to the wrist).
Finally, get your union rep involved as early as possible. If you have a meeting with management, ask for them to be there too. Remember, whatever you have said to her was in response to HER racism. You may be in the wrong in the choice of words used but if they are going to have a pop at you then they must also deal with her. The difference, however, is that your language may have been an inappropriate choice but hers may be illegal.
I have had to have discussions like this in work (obviously before I became self-employed). The person using the racist language often falls back on either 'I have the freedom to express myself', 'it was a joke - everyone laughed' or, my favourite, they'll take a swipe at your own heritage to prove some sort of point. The best was when a student of mine (a fully paid up member of Nick Griffin's lot, I $hit you not) told me that I was only calling his racism out because I am Jewish. Oy vey.
You are in the right. She is not and any company worth its salt needs to address this. |
thanks Dorse, that's helps a bundle
I stood up to her when she was imo bulling another employee , even my line manager has even mentioned to me the bullying culture in there when she first started but hasn't done a thing since
when you hear the words "spear chucker" (that's actually one of the tamer ones ) in the office said repeatedly even someone who is isn't easily shocked and is I suppose is right wing as me you have a sort of limit | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:32 - Jan 5 with 6856 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
WWBMD?
 | | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:43 - Jan 5 with 6827 views | Brightonhoop |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:13 - Jan 5 by paulparker |
thanks Dorse, that's helps a bundle
I stood up to her when she was imo bulling another employee , even my line manager has even mentioned to me the bullying culture in there when she first started but hasn't done a thing since
when you hear the words "spear chucker" (that's actually one of the tamer ones ) in the office said repeatedly even someone who is isn't easily shocked and is I suppose is right wing as me you have a sort of limit |
Well done Paul, it takes b4lls. Watch your steps in he days and weeks ahead swerving any land mines left for you and cross your t's and dot your i's.
Two things, Dave's advice to document in a diary form and backed up with spaech recorded examples is extremely important, especially going back 6 months as you have said, would to some justify your own expletive in the work place. Secondly, it may go against your political grain, but joining a professional Union will give you access to all sorts of legal advice and representation if needs be. Sometimes you have to back pay 3 months subs on joining for access, or wait 3 months. Either way, it will be useful if you are threatened directly or indirectly, just say look I'm going to get your company some Equalities Training and some anti-bullying Race Awareness training, to whom in HR can I direct my Union Rep? And watch the blood drain from there faces. Keep it passive. And document everything, do it this weekend. You can always let Membership lase later, but now the advice will be invaluable.
Her reaction to being challenged is classic bully tactics and will support your own position of what has occurred, so record it on paper in case you get called in. If you are take bullet points in with you and ask to refer to your notes before answering questions. Let them know you are organised, professional and ready to go. Be aware, any meetings may be privately recorded.
Lastly, stick it to the bully, they always crumble in the end. |  | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:09 - Jan 5 with 6773 views | Ashdown_Ranger |
Some good advice on here from many people.
A little bit of my own experience.
I hit a 'colleague' several years ago. In the face, at work. He had been verbally and physically intimidating me and a couple of workmates. It's something I thought I would NEVER do, but I just snapped. One punch, split his eyelid, off to hospital for 4 stitches.
Lots of 'well done' and 'he deserved it' comments at the time from colleagues.
Then came the management inquiry. I was sacked, he kept his job.
Not one of the four witnesses came forward. Lots of apologies behind the scenes, but the over-riding message was 'I don't want to get involved' - people who relied on their jobs were too concerned about keeping their noses clean and staying out of trouble, even by association.
So I can see how/why you're getting the 'blanking' treatment at work. 'Mrs Popular' is clearly an influential and intimidating figure at work, no-one wants to rub her up the wrong way and spoil their own prospects for advancement or popularity at work. And it sounds like management value her work - and may even be intimidated by her too.
It's playground bullying all over - or Lord of the Flies.
Short of a major intervention/investigation by management, it does sound like the company has done about as much as it's going to do, without further pressure from you and/or others.
If you can demonstrate racism in the workplace, get that corroborated by colleagues (or discrete phone video?) then take it further if you feel it deserves it.
If the company makes life difficult for you, then that could be seen as harassment/victimisation, possible leading to 'constructive dismissal', ie, making you work life so unbearable that you have no other practical choice than finding a new job.
In that case, ACAS is very definitely your friend - as Simon mentioned earlier.
Being a listed company, it may be opening up the debate about what may effectively be 'institutional racism' within the company publicly will focus their collective minds for the sake of the share price and customer relations.
Think carefully about where you want to go with this from here.
I think you have the choice of pursuing it with support from colleagues and further evidence, or saying you've said your bit, supported those being racially abused and stopped the practice at work. In which case, I think you need to patiently and subtly mend fences with your colleagues.
Either way, good luck! | | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:10 - Jan 5 with 6771 views | robith |
You absolutely did the right thing.
Capture everything - write it down. Every word, every thing you recount has to be on the money. People will try to get your emotional to look unreasonable or to make sweeping statements like "you're always....". You need to be able to recount everything banally and exactly.
My wife is a union steward and has had to do what you've done - I've recently made a bit of a target for myself at work for how a black female employee was treated. Feel free to DM me if you want any more specific advice |  | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:20 - Jan 5 with 6747 views | paulparker |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 15:43 - Jan 5 by Brightonhoop |
Well done Paul, it takes b4lls. Watch your steps in he days and weeks ahead swerving any land mines left for you and cross your t's and dot your i's.
Two things, Dave's advice to document in a diary form and backed up with spaech recorded examples is extremely important, especially going back 6 months as you have said, would to some justify your own expletive in the work place. Secondly, it may go against your political grain, but joining a professional Union will give you access to all sorts of legal advice and representation if needs be. Sometimes you have to back pay 3 months subs on joining for access, or wait 3 months. Either way, it will be useful if you are threatened directly or indirectly, just say look I'm going to get your company some Equalities Training and some anti-bullying Race Awareness training, to whom in HR can I direct my Union Rep? And watch the blood drain from there faces. Keep it passive. And document everything, do it this weekend. You can always let Membership lase later, but now the advice will be invaluable.
Her reaction to being challenged is classic bully tactics and will support your own position of what has occurred, so record it on paper in case you get called in. If you are take bullet points in with you and ask to refer to your notes before answering questions. Let them know you are organised, professional and ready to go. Be aware, any meetings may be privately recorded.
Lastly, stick it to the bully, they always crumble in the end. |
Cheers
I have documented everything on paper , but this goes back to nearly 3 years a lot of this is my word against hers as a lot of people have cocked a deafen
my father in law is a union man and is a union rep a real socialist rabble rouser but as sods law dictates he has fallen out with Mrs P over the last few months meaning hell may have to freeze over for her to call for help
ive played it cool since and done everything by the book , the interesting thing is they have called a lot of people into the office to discuss this and the main culprit was only in there 10 minutes , the lady who she keeps calling a "slanty eyed cnt" was in there for over an hour which is interesting, she is now playing the nice as pie to everyone routine which is quite sickening but this will rumble on and on | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:34 - Jan 5 with 6704 views | Brightonhoop |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:20 - Jan 5 by paulparker |
Cheers
I have documented everything on paper , but this goes back to nearly 3 years a lot of this is my word against hers as a lot of people have cocked a deafen
my father in law is a union man and is a union rep a real socialist rabble rouser but as sods law dictates he has fallen out with Mrs P over the last few months meaning hell may have to freeze over for her to call for help
ive played it cool since and done everything by the book , the interesting thing is they have called a lot of people into the office to discuss this and the main culprit was only in there 10 minutes , the lady who she keeps calling a "slanty eyed cnt" was in there for over an hour which is interesting, she is now playing the nice as pie to everyone routine which is quite sickening but this will rumble on and on |
Make a note of who and how long they were called in for, particularly the woman being made a victim. The hour will help hold them to account as well. As they are that lax they will likely have taken an intimidation route with her so check in with her, ask her if she is ok.
No way to start the NY but well done. And good luck. | | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:37 - Jan 5 with 6690 views | paulparker |
thank you LFW comrades , some excellent advice ,this will help me how I play this,
interesting that one of the protagonist's last night tried to humiliate me in front of another colleague because I dared to speak up against "Mrs Popular" has now gone sick as she was due in the office to be interviewed ( I made a complaint , )
ive never been in this situation and those who know me know I lean to the right in regards of voting and certain views so this thread may come as a surprise to many ,but what I cant do though is watch bullying and blatant racism develop in front of me , (the 2 go hand in hand in my book ) not that this is a personal crusade but I will stick to my guns and take on some of the top notch advice given as this could be come a rocky road a head
thanks once again brothers and sisters | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
|
| |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 17:30 - Jan 5 with 6601 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 16:37 - Jan 5 by paulparker |
thank you LFW comrades , some excellent advice ,this will help me how I play this,
interesting that one of the protagonist's last night tried to humiliate me in front of another colleague because I dared to speak up against "Mrs Popular" has now gone sick as she was due in the office to be interviewed ( I made a complaint , )
ive never been in this situation and those who know me know I lean to the right in regards of voting and certain views so this thread may come as a surprise to many ,but what I cant do though is watch bullying and blatant racism develop in front of me , (the 2 go hand in hand in my book ) not that this is a personal crusade but I will stick to my guns and take on some of the top notch advice given as this could be come a rocky road a head
thanks once again brothers and sisters |
If you work for a big multinational, racism isn’t good PR so you have that going for you too.
Good luck. | | | |
| Advise Please (HR Related ) on 18:52 - Jan 5 with 6435 views | johncharles |
As Bazza says any multinational will be very wary of being accused of racism. They are bound to have a complaints procedure and they will to follow this to the latter. Make sure they do. I'd ask for a copy of this procedure just to let them know that you're on the case. At any interview /hearing you are allowed to have someone present as a witness on your side. A union rep would be great but you can have anyone you like. One of your mates might be a .....a local councillor ? 😲 Don't worry about upsetting the company. The quieter you are the better for them
Paul we've had some right argy bargies on here but this woman must have been well out order to upset you. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
