| Vale call-up 20:07 - Mar 18 with 15356 views | QPunkR |
You heard it here first... or rather on the offish - before the Ireland squad is even announced tomorrow morning. Whoops!
https://www.balls.ie/football/ |  |
| |  |
| Vale call-up on 23:00 - Mar 26 with 2741 views | A40Bosh |
| Vale call-up on 22:53 - Mar 26 by EN_Ranger |
That was like watching a Championship mid table match! |
Its easy to forget after a defeat that Ireland has such a small population that the best we can field in 2026 is the likes of Alan Browne, Molumby, Ogbene and still having to rely on great servants like Coleman. It really was like watching the R’s on a bad day against another awful team who both ran out of ideas and puff well before the end.
When Vale came on I thought it is written in the stars for his winning pen.
Then up steps Browne
 |  |
| |
| Vale call-up on 23:08 - Mar 26 with 2654 views | EN_Ranger |
| Vale call-up on 23:00 - Mar 26 by A40Bosh |
Its easy to forget after a defeat that Ireland has such a small population that the best we can field in 2026 is the likes of Alan Browne, Molumby, Ogbene and still having to rely on great servants like Coleman. It really was like watching the R’s on a bad day against another awful team who both ran out of ideas and puff well before the end.
When Vale came on I thought it is written in the stars for his winning pen.
Then up steps Browne
|
Spot on, those desperate diags to Dunne at right back was like watching our away performances under Marti, when that was the main game plan |  | | |
| Vale call-up on 23:27 - Mar 26 with 2530 views | izlingtonhoop |
Big QPR flag in the ireland end in shot at the end... |  | | |
| Vale call-up on 23:51 - Mar 26 with 2407 views | lightwaterhoop |
| Vale call-up on 22:39 - Mar 20 by Myke |
Hi Benny, appreciate this question was for Brian, who may have a completely different viewpoint, but here is my take on players declaring for Ireland who were not born here. This phenomenon pre-dates the Charlton era, although it is fair to say that ‘Big Jack’ accelerated the process significantly. Former R, Terry Mancini (originally Sealey) declared for Ireland in the mid-seventies. Born in London but his dad was Irish, he was capped 5 times for us. Famously wondered to a team-mate during ‘Arain na Bhiann’ when they were going to play ‘our’ National Anthem.
While Charlton, as I said ramped up the ‘granny rule’ to find player with Irish ancestry, I don’t recall any major backlash to this at the time. It was made fun of from time to time, by comedians of the time, but don’t recall a lot of negativity. Like I say, Brian may have a different viewpoint, but the likes of Haughton and Aldridge were bloody good additions to the squad and to be fair are both still involved from PR/pundit roles to this day. Also it is worth remembering we were having a bloody good time in the late 80’s and 90’s qualifying for major tournaments and beating the likes of England (shush) and Italy along the way .
That said, I wasn’t particularly impressed with Charlton during this period, which sounds strange considering he is our most successful manager. But we had a pretty incredible group of players, playing for top clubs Whelan,/Aldridge/Haughton/Lawrenson/Beglin for Liverpool. Stapleton/ Brady (who he omitted) and O’Leary (who he initially froze out) at Arsenal. McGrath/Irwin at Utd and Sheedy of Everton. Plus the likes of Langan and Bonner. So he had the cream of the crop, a generation of talent never seen again - yes I know we had the two Keanes, Duff, Quinn etc etc later, but in terms of a FULL TEAM, Charlton had the full set for ‘88 and 90. But he didn’t trust them to ‘play football’. Instead it was ‘put em under pressure’ (nowadays known as a high press’) Thoroughbreds like Whelan and Aldridge turned into workhorses,told to run their blx off for 90 minutes. For Jack it was about the sum of the parts, never the individual and man we had some individuals. I actually believe we could have won Euro ‘88 with the surprise factor and quality of the squad. Denmark did it a decade later. Small countries would never win the World Cup, but the euros with only 8 countries back in the day, it was possible. But I honestly think, Charlton didn’t believe in us enough, didn’t trust the players enough to really go for it - gave us some great memories though!
One final interesting ‘fun fact’ about Charlton. He wasn’t even supposed to be selected as the Ireland boss. The job was apparently about to be offered to Bob Paisley, but due to some break down in communication, Jack got offered the job instead. The rest, as they say, is history. |
I heard that the reason the job was never offered to Bob Paisley was that some Irish journalists were saying that they would rather have Ian Paisley. | | | |
| Vale call-up on 11:21 - Mar 27 with 2134 views | robith |
| Vale call-up on 12:58 - Mar 20 by Padulas_Shampoo |
Think you talk a lot of sense here Brian... And I know this is a football forum...
But criticism of this selection by Ireland (as well as the stick given to Rice and Grealish) does stick in the craw somewhat given Ireland has built pretty much their entire rugby team around James Lowe, Jamison Gibson Park and Bundee Aki. None of whom had ever stepped foot in Ireland before they started playing their club rugby there. Not forgetting of course that James Lowe was capped by New Zealand Maori AGAINST the British and Irish Lions. Compared to those three Irish heroes, Vale would bleed green. [Post edited 20 Mar 13:01]
|
It's very disingenous to say our team is "built around" those 3 players, JGP I'll give you, but Lowe plays on the wing, has been repeatedly dropped , and Aki whilst I love him only has only had as many caps as he has because Ringrose and Henshaw never stay fit, he's only really had 2 properly elite seasons. Our play comes entirely off 8,9,10 & 15 so not sure you can say the entire team is built around an 11 & 12 imo.
But rugby is very different to football because it's a niche sport. There are 300k registered association football players in Ireland. There are 90k rugby players. Barely makes it into the 5th most played sport. For context there are almost 400k rugby players in England. Ireland use the rules to fill the gaps in their squad quality (a game England were more than happy to use in the 2010s when their pathways were weaker than today) to compete at an elite level, which pretty much every country does because the player pools are small. |  | | |
| Vale call-up on 11:29 - Mar 27 with 2103 views | robith |
| Vale call-up on 16:07 - Mar 20 by Padulas_Shampoo |
Both Vunipolas moved to Britain as babies and were educated in Thornbury. I'm not sure how anyone could claim they weren't English given they wouldn't even remember living in their birth country.
That's totally different to selecting an already-established international player just because they've played here professionally as adults. Scotland have a fair share. I'm not sure Wales and England have a particularly long list. I can only remember Hadleigh Parkes for Wales. Matt Stevens qualified on residency grounds but he'd moved to England to study at university long before he became a professional rugby player. van Rensberg qualifies to play for England later this year on 5 year residency grounds. Gibson Park, Lowe and Aki all qualified after 2 years. I hope van Rensberg isn't selected. |
Tualagi (who entered the country illegally lol)
Flutey
Hape
Te'o
Shields
Waldrom
Roots
Aki, Lowe and JGP qualified after 3 years not 2 as you stated.
You also called them established international players. They were not. The Maori All Blacks are not a test team, and having played 132 games in 136 years they're essentially a very involved exhibition team.
You can disagree with the concept of "project players" but accuracy matters [Post edited 27 Mar 11:32]
| | | |
| Vale call-up on 14:07 - Mar 27 with 1952 views | A40Bosh |
| Vale call-up on 23:06 - Mar 20 by slmrstid |
I suppose ultimately elite sport is a cruel beast and its simply about being better and using rulesets best as you can to your advantage because everyone else is going to be doing it.
If the lad who had been playing for Ireland since 15 in Harvey's position was better than Harvey, then he'd be in instead of Harvey. Instead, the Head Coach believes he is not, so Harvey is in, because its about winning football games and he'll be judged on that, not whether all of the players are born within the counties.
I get why people may not like it, but that's the reality at the end of the day.
Martin Rowlands was called up for Ireland too lets not forget through these rules and we were all delighted for him then, not sure what his link was but he certainly didn't sound very Irish when he spoke!
I hope Harvey does well. I have a friend who is an Irish football journo and he doesn't like Dunne or Vale being in the squad, mainly because he thinks for the level Ireland need to be at they're not very good. |
"Martin Rowlands was called up for Ireland too lets not forget through these rules and we were all delighted for him then, not sure what his link was but he certainly didn't sound very Irish when he spoke!"
This thread has expanded since I last posted about the result last night. Love this type of debate :-)
Sorry, a "Professional Plastic Paddy" post oncoming...
Not sure if the posts on here about frontal lobes being not being fully developed are true or taking the Michael etc... but sense of national identity is very much an individual thing and even within my own family myself and my next brother down have very separate national identities. My youngest brother RIP was more akin to me in that respect.
My sense of national identity was not really formed until my late teens or early twenties maybe, hard to be sure looking back at 58. Born in Hammersmith Hospital on the Du Cane Road, lived all my life in West London. Therefore, to Irish people I sound more like a Martin Rowlands than an "Irish" person too.
Parents both Irish immigrants who arrived "on a boat" and through basic adherence to a Catholic way of life, it meant that through local Parish engagement, Catholic Schooling throughout, and lots of close uncles, aunts and cousins in and around us in West London, I was immersed in "Irishness". My mum's brother even owned Irish pubs which we spent weekends in.
Now the difference between myself and Harvey....
other than his Grandfather being from Kenmare (we might even be related) and I am direct 2nd generation through both parents (you see I am already putting in my Irish credentials justification!),
...was that other than a decent spell between the sticks from age 13-15 in the school team, I was never faced with the choice of having the England U15 manager ring up my dad to say "can we speak to your eldest son about playing for England".
Ironically, sat beside me on my desk is my dad's soon to expire English passport, which I have to renew for him this week - so he as an Irish economic migrant, arriving here in the early 60s, he knew the game about integration and got himself an English passport as well as an Irish passport. So I am not sure whether he would have told the U15 England manager to F Off or simply passed the phone to me.
Knowing him he would have asked what the sign on fee was and then told the English U15 manager that the Irish U15 manager had rung earlier and was offering money for me.
So at 15 if it had happened I could have very well accepted, had it been put in front of me then.
I think for me, living in London as a teenager during the 1980s and during that period "The Troubles" came to London, I became aware of and exposed to a great deal of the anti-Irish sentiments and "thick paddy" racism which would have naturally occurred within my English people around me as a result of bombs going off around us. If the Irish race were green skinned, then a lot less anti-Irish sentiments and racist comments would have been openly said in front of me. I know there has been studies on the effects of being born and bred in the UK for "2nd Gen Irish". So it may have been at that time I began to subconsciously decide whether to distance myself from my Irishness and "be English" ( as one of my friends stated about himself many years go "I can't help the "O" in my surname - I am Irish in name only).
So, I ended up, and perhaps, only in my own head "officially Irish". From the time my first passport expired as an adult I have only had an Irish passport, my wife is from Cork (that just happened, was not a part of the plan to Paddy meself up) and our kids currently only have Irish passports. The first other person, actually a "celeb" I have come across who I think expresses their Irishness in the same way I feel about it is Dermot O'Leary. I listened to an interview where he was talking about it and some people were questioning afterwards how he could possibly think he "Irish". To me, I get it, I feel exactly the same.
HOWEVER, all that is irrelevant but I like to get that off my chest - because the cynical part of me thinks that Harvey Vale has always had designs on playing for England, got to age 22 when he is now thinking realistically, will I get in to an England squad in the next 10 years? and only then starts taking his Grandad more seriously when he says "you would qualify for Ireland young lad".
I hope I am not doing Harvey an injustice, maybe like me he has grown in to his Irishness as he got in to his 20s and has felt the force of the green side? | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Vale call-up on 16:04 - Mar 27 with 1857 views | golborne |
| Vale call-up on 23:00 - Mar 26 by A40Bosh |
Its easy to forget after a defeat that Ireland has such a small population that the best we can field in 2026 is the likes of Alan Browne, Molumby, Ogbene and still having to rely on great servants like Coleman. It really was like watching the R’s on a bad day against another awful team who both ran out of ideas and puff well before the end.
When Vale came on I thought it is written in the stars for his winning pen.
Then up steps Browne
|
When they got that final corner on the right, I thought Vale was gonna steal up and put it on Jimmy's head | | | |
| Vale call-up on 16:07 - Mar 27 with 1848 views | golborne |
| Vale call-up on 14:07 - Mar 27 by A40Bosh |
"Martin Rowlands was called up for Ireland too lets not forget through these rules and we were all delighted for him then, not sure what his link was but he certainly didn't sound very Irish when he spoke!"
This thread has expanded since I last posted about the result last night. Love this type of debate :-)
Sorry, a "Professional Plastic Paddy" post oncoming...
Not sure if the posts on here about frontal lobes being not being fully developed are true or taking the Michael etc... but sense of national identity is very much an individual thing and even within my own family myself and my next brother down have very separate national identities. My youngest brother RIP was more akin to me in that respect.
My sense of national identity was not really formed until my late teens or early twenties maybe, hard to be sure looking back at 58. Born in Hammersmith Hospital on the Du Cane Road, lived all my life in West London. Therefore, to Irish people I sound more like a Martin Rowlands than an "Irish" person too.
Parents both Irish immigrants who arrived "on a boat" and through basic adherence to a Catholic way of life, it meant that through local Parish engagement, Catholic Schooling throughout, and lots of close uncles, aunts and cousins in and around us in West London, I was immersed in "Irishness". My mum's brother even owned Irish pubs which we spent weekends in.
Now the difference between myself and Harvey....
other than his Grandfather being from Kenmare (we might even be related) and I am direct 2nd generation through both parents (you see I am already putting in my Irish credentials justification!),
...was that other than a decent spell between the sticks from age 13-15 in the school team, I was never faced with the choice of having the England U15 manager ring up my dad to say "can we speak to your eldest son about playing for England".
Ironically, sat beside me on my desk is my dad's soon to expire English passport, which I have to renew for him this week - so he as an Irish economic migrant, arriving here in the early 60s, he knew the game about integration and got himself an English passport as well as an Irish passport. So I am not sure whether he would have told the U15 England manager to F Off or simply passed the phone to me.
Knowing him he would have asked what the sign on fee was and then told the English U15 manager that the Irish U15 manager had rung earlier and was offering money for me.
So at 15 if it had happened I could have very well accepted, had it been put in front of me then.
I think for me, living in London as a teenager during the 1980s and during that period "The Troubles" came to London, I became aware of and exposed to a great deal of the anti-Irish sentiments and "thick paddy" racism which would have naturally occurred within my English people around me as a result of bombs going off around us. If the Irish race were green skinned, then a lot less anti-Irish sentiments and racist comments would have been openly said in front of me. I know there has been studies on the effects of being born and bred in the UK for "2nd Gen Irish". So it may have been at that time I began to subconsciously decide whether to distance myself from my Irishness and "be English" ( as one of my friends stated about himself many years go "I can't help the "O" in my surname - I am Irish in name only).
So, I ended up, and perhaps, only in my own head "officially Irish". From the time my first passport expired as an adult I have only had an Irish passport, my wife is from Cork (that just happened, was not a part of the plan to Paddy meself up) and our kids currently only have Irish passports. The first other person, actually a "celeb" I have come across who I think expresses their Irishness in the same way I feel about it is Dermot O'Leary. I listened to an interview where he was talking about it and some people were questioning afterwards how he could possibly think he "Irish". To me, I get it, I feel exactly the same.
HOWEVER, all that is irrelevant but I like to get that off my chest - because the cynical part of me thinks that Harvey Vale has always had designs on playing for England, got to age 22 when he is now thinking realistically, will I get in to an England squad in the next 10 years? and only then starts taking his Grandad more seriously when he says "you would qualify for Ireland young lad".
I hope I am not doing Harvey an injustice, maybe like me he has grown in to his Irishness as he got in to his 20s and has felt the force of the green side? |
"We are Irish, not because we were born in Ireland, but because Ireland was born in us" | | | |
| Vale call-up on 16:59 - Mar 27 with 1751 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Vale call-up on 11:29 - Mar 27 by robith |
Tualagi (who entered the country illegally lol)
Flutey
Hape
Te'o
Shields
Waldrom
Roots
Aki, Lowe and JGP qualified after 3 years not 2 as you stated.
You also called them established international players. They were not. The Maori All Blacks are not a test team, and having played 132 games in 136 years they're essentially a very involved exhibition team.
You can disagree with the concept of "project players" but accuracy matters [Post edited 27 Mar 11:32]
|
Tuliagi moved to the UK at 13 years old. I wouldn't feel comfortable telling someone that's lived in any country since childhood that they don't qualify to represent it.
Te'o qualified through English parents.
Shields qualified through English parents.
Waldrom qualified through English grandparents.
Roots qualified through English parents.
You're right on Flutey and Hape. Fair cop. I'd forgotten about them. That's 27 caps that should never have been. Not quite the 165 caps that the three 'Irish' lads I mentioned have won between them. CJ Stander would take it to 216 by the way.
I found it somewhat bizarre cheering on these guys (as well as van der Merve and Schoeman) on the last Lions tour. For me it completely defeats the object and honour of the team and the tour. I'll find it equally juxtaposing if van Rensberg is selected for the six nations or WC next year. If he's the guy that scores the winning try in a final it will taint it somewhat. Like I said before, I hope he's not selected.
Google says there are 90-102k registered rugby players in Ireland - You quoted 90k. It says there are 'over 382k' in England. You quoted 'Almost 400k'. So accuracy not that important?!
I'm not trying to antagonise here and clearly Ireland have NOT broken any rules but back to the point that Brian originally brought up... There are far worse examples of foreign-born sportsmen blocking pathways for Irish born players than Harvey Vale. My overarching point is project player selections shouldn't be happening in any sport, in any country. I'm certainly not claiming Ireland are the worst perpetrators. But for me it absolutely does taint what they've achieved over the last 10 years or so. Which as it happens... Isn't that much anyway! [Post edited 27 Mar 17:06]
|  | | |
| Vale call-up on 17:49 - Mar 27 with 1653 views | robith |
| Vale call-up on 16:59 - Mar 27 by Padulas_Shampoo |
Tuliagi moved to the UK at 13 years old. I wouldn't feel comfortable telling someone that's lived in any country since childhood that they don't qualify to represent it.
Te'o qualified through English parents.
Shields qualified through English parents.
Waldrom qualified through English grandparents.
Roots qualified through English parents.
You're right on Flutey and Hape. Fair cop. I'd forgotten about them. That's 27 caps that should never have been. Not quite the 165 caps that the three 'Irish' lads I mentioned have won between them. CJ Stander would take it to 216 by the way.
I found it somewhat bizarre cheering on these guys (as well as van der Merve and Schoeman) on the last Lions tour. For me it completely defeats the object and honour of the team and the tour. I'll find it equally juxtaposing if van Rensberg is selected for the six nations or WC next year. If he's the guy that scores the winning try in a final it will taint it somewhat. Like I said before, I hope he's not selected.
Google says there are 90-102k registered rugby players in Ireland - You quoted 90k. It says there are 'over 382k' in England. You quoted 'Almost 400k'. So accuracy not that important?!
I'm not trying to antagonise here and clearly Ireland have NOT broken any rules but back to the point that Brian originally brought up... There are far worse examples of foreign-born sportsmen blocking pathways for Irish born players than Harvey Vale. My overarching point is project player selections shouldn't be happening in any sport, in any country. I'm certainly not claiming Ireland are the worst perpetrators. But for me it absolutely does taint what they've achieved over the last 10 years or so. Which as it happens... Isn't that much anyway! [Post edited 27 Mar 17:06]
|
Fair cop, that's shoddy memory on my part, and I swore Tuilagi was older than that (though if he wasn't good at rugby hed have been deported).
"Google says there are 90-102k registered rugby players in Ireland - You quoted 90k. It says there are 'over 382k' in England. You quoted 'Almost 400k'. So accuracy not that important?!" I'm struggling to see where what I said was incorrect? And doesn't undermine my central point - we have far fewer players, and those players were not established internationals as you said
"But for me it absolutely does taint what they've achieved over the last 10 years or so. Which as it happens... Isn't that much anyway!"
Same number as 6 nations titles and double the amount of Grand Slams as England with a third of the players and less than half the money isn't bad going imo. [Post edited 27 Mar 17:50]
| | | |
| Vale call-up on 20:06 - Mar 27 with 1580 views | Padulas_Shampoo |
| Vale call-up on 17:49 - Mar 27 by robith |
Fair cop, that's shoddy memory on my part, and I swore Tuilagi was older than that (though if he wasn't good at rugby hed have been deported).
"Google says there are 90-102k registered rugby players in Ireland - You quoted 90k. It says there are 'over 382k' in England. You quoted 'Almost 400k'. So accuracy not that important?!" I'm struggling to see where what I said was incorrect? And doesn't undermine my central point - we have far fewer players, and those players were not established internationals as you said
"But for me it absolutely does taint what they've achieved over the last 10 years or so. Which as it happens... Isn't that much anyway!"
Same number as 6 nations titles and double the amount of Grand Slams as England with a third of the players and less than half the money isn't bad going imo. [Post edited 27 Mar 17:50]
|
I’d take two World Cup semis and one World Cup final over some six nations titles every time. | | | |
| Vale call-up on 20:22 - Mar 27 with 1556 views | A40Bosh |
| Vale call-up on 16:04 - Mar 27 by golborne |
When they got that final corner on the right, I thought Vale was gonna steal up and put it on Jimmy's head |
+1 | |
| |
| Vale call-up on 23:01 - Mar 27 with 1462 views | Myke |
| Vale call-up on 16:07 - Mar 27 by golborne |
"We are Irish, not because we were born in Ireland, but because Ireland was born in us" |
I think Gary Waddock’s greatest claim to being Irish - apart from his carrot top - was being born on Paddy’s Day. No doubting his commitment to the Irish cause though. Only 20 odd caps due to injury unfortunately. One of my favourite players, when you would see his red head emerging with the ball after a typical midfield ‘tussle’ , ‘twas a sight to behold | | | |
| Vale call-up on 23:39 - Mar 27 with 1418 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Vale call-up on 23:01 - Mar 27 by Myke |
I think Gary Waddock’s greatest claim to being Irish - apart from his carrot top - was being born on Paddy’s Day. No doubting his commitment to the Irish cause though. Only 20 odd caps due to injury unfortunately. One of my favourite players, when you would see his red head emerging with the ball after a typical midfield ‘tussle’ , ‘twas a sight to behold |
A quality player, Myke, I agree.
Waddock declared for Ireland at 17, that was in 1979.
Three years before the Cup Final.
Four years before the promotion.
He won a senior cap for Ireland at 18.
This was no Plan B.
This was no Harvey Vale. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.