| Football Finances on 11:34 - Oct 14 with 2434 views | Clive_Anderson |
"17 clubs across the EFL and National League would be loss-making even if their players played for free"
How is that even possible? Surely maintaining a stadium and some non-playing staff can be covered by several thousand turning up every game along with some TV money? |  | |  |
| Football Finances on 11:58 - Oct 14 with 2336 views | DWQPR |
| Football Finances on 11:34 - Oct 14 by Clive_Anderson |
"17 clubs across the EFL and National League would be loss-making even if their players played for free"
How is that even possible? Surely maintaining a stadium and some non-playing staff can be covered by several thousand turning up every game along with some TV money? |
The chase for the PL TV rights has totally screwed the lower leagues in this country as owners see that the only way to achieve this is to overspend. In recent times this has screwed over Sheff Wed and Derby with the likes of West Brom and Leicester not far behind. We were fortunate that the stupity that Fernandes in the main adopted 15 years ago was covered by them but it could have been a whole lot worse. I know that he isn’t everyone’s flavour but Nourry seems to have a plan in place in terms of what the club needs to achieve and also to date hasn’t made the worst managerial appointments. If at the start of the 23-24 season under Ainsworth someone would say that in three years we’d have a play off chasing squad, one of the youngest in the league and a manager that knows his onions, getting the team to play some very attractive football along the way and with some very sellable assets I think we’d all be looking for the number of the funny farm for him. | |
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| Football Finances on 12:44 - Oct 14 with 2187 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Football Finances on 11:58 - Oct 14 by DWQPR |
The chase for the PL TV rights has totally screwed the lower leagues in this country as owners see that the only way to achieve this is to overspend. In recent times this has screwed over Sheff Wed and Derby with the likes of West Brom and Leicester not far behind. We were fortunate that the stupity that Fernandes in the main adopted 15 years ago was covered by them but it could have been a whole lot worse. I know that he isn’t everyone’s flavour but Nourry seems to have a plan in place in terms of what the club needs to achieve and also to date hasn’t made the worst managerial appointments. If at the start of the 23-24 season under Ainsworth someone would say that in three years we’d have a play off chasing squad, one of the youngest in the league and a manager that knows his onions, getting the team to play some very attractive football along the way and with some very sellable assets I think we’d all be looking for the number of the funny farm for him. |
Very fair!
Several games into the Ainsworth era, I'd have settled for still being in the EFL. As for that useless prat from KL....less said, the better! [Post edited 14 Oct 12:49]
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| Football Finances on 13:18 - Oct 14 with 2080 views | stevec |
Everything in this report suggests the regulator needs to step in hard and make the changes but I suspect his tough stance will just turn out to be rhetoric.
It does also state the single biggest problem is player wages.
The tv pie should be spread more evenly across the four divisions, maybe 40/30/20/10% to close the gap but maybe link efl contributions to infrastructure spend. Taking our league, maybe allocate half of the above 30% between the 24 clubs, but the other half allocated purely based on your infrastructure spend. That would force clubs like ours to upgrade or build new stadiums otherwise they lose out and the remaining half gets distributed to clubs who do bother to improve facilities.
In the long run, it’ll encourage clubs to create a better ground with more seats and a subsequent rise in overall income.
We have been the antithesis of a well run club for best part of 40 years and we’ve seen the price we, as supporters, pay for this neglect. |  | | |
| Football Finances on 13:53 - Oct 14 with 1952 views | wombat |
| Football Finances on 11:34 - Oct 14 by Clive_Anderson |
"17 clubs across the EFL and National League would be loss-making even if their players played for free"
How is that even possible? Surely maintaining a stadium and some non-playing staff can be covered by several thousand turning up every game along with some TV money? |
have u seen how many back room staff we have these days ?
Methodology dosnt come cheap these days ill have you know . |  |
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| Football Finances on 13:58 - Oct 14 with 1934 views | wombat |
| Football Finances on 11:58 - Oct 14 by DWQPR |
The chase for the PL TV rights has totally screwed the lower leagues in this country as owners see that the only way to achieve this is to overspend. In recent times this has screwed over Sheff Wed and Derby with the likes of West Brom and Leicester not far behind. We were fortunate that the stupity that Fernandes in the main adopted 15 years ago was covered by them but it could have been a whole lot worse. I know that he isn’t everyone’s flavour but Nourry seems to have a plan in place in terms of what the club needs to achieve and also to date hasn’t made the worst managerial appointments. If at the start of the 23-24 season under Ainsworth someone would say that in three years we’d have a play off chasing squad, one of the youngest in the league and a manager that knows his onions, getting the team to play some very attractive football along the way and with some very sellable assets I think we’d all be looking for the number of the funny farm for him. |
nourrynhas the same plan in place that we have had for years , its nothing new , issue he like others bar eze he hasnt produced any star players yet . we have spent decent money on players in recent season and the club should be expecting a decent return opn them assests if only we could actually keep them fit for a few games..
so far the only player we brought in cheap to produce numerous offers was varanne and at the present we would be lucky to get what we paid for him back with the lack of game time and his obv limitations on the pitch making his worth even less this season
burrell would have been worth more if only for them. pesky impact injuries
at pres we prob have one player who should go for more money than we paid for him and thats edwards and prob dunne | |
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| Football Finances on 14:05 - Oct 14 with 1913 views | LongRanger |
| Football Finances on 13:18 - Oct 14 by stevec |
Everything in this report suggests the regulator needs to step in hard and make the changes but I suspect his tough stance will just turn out to be rhetoric.
It does also state the single biggest problem is player wages.
The tv pie should be spread more evenly across the four divisions, maybe 40/30/20/10% to close the gap but maybe link efl contributions to infrastructure spend. Taking our league, maybe allocate half of the above 30% between the 24 clubs, but the other half allocated purely based on your infrastructure spend. That would force clubs like ours to upgrade or build new stadiums otherwise they lose out and the remaining half gets distributed to clubs who do bother to improve facilities.
In the long run, it’ll encourage clubs to create a better ground with more seats and a subsequent rise in overall income.
We have been the antithesis of a well run club for best part of 40 years and we’ve seen the price we, as supporters, pay for this neglect. |
I agree with the principle of your point to spread the wealth, but there will always be challenges with the how, even in the PL, the biggest push for rules to protect their power, they won't share it for the good of the game.
The other issue I suspect, is the TV money is weighted as it is due to viewing figures, the Championship may be a top 10 league in the world, but relatively few neutrals will sit down to watch a Championship game on TV.
Clubs just need to put ego to one side and follow a patient growth model [Post edited 14 Oct 14:05]
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| Football Finances on 14:08 - Oct 14 with 1890 views | KensalT |
The recent Liverpool takeover valued the club at £5.5 billion.
Transfermarkt data (I know, I know) gives a combined valuation for the 96 EFL and National League clubs of around £2.4 billion - approximately 47% of the Liverpool valuation.
The real problem with English football is that trickledown economics is a fairy tale. |  | | |
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| Football Finances on 14:21 - Oct 14 with 1839 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Football Finances on 14:08 - Oct 14 by KensalT |
The recent Liverpool takeover valued the club at £5.5 billion.
Transfermarkt data (I know, I know) gives a combined valuation for the 96 EFL and National League clubs of around £2.4 billion - approximately 47% of the Liverpool valuation.
The real problem with English football is that trickledown economics is a fairy tale. |
They were bought for £300m in 2010. It shows how crazy football is getting and how money in general has been devalued that they are worth 18 times as much just 16 years later. | | | |
| Football Finances on 15:07 - Oct 14 with 1749 views | BristolR |
| Football Finances on 13:53 - Oct 14 by wombat |
have u seen how many back room staff we have these days ?
Methodology dosnt come cheap these days ill have you know . |
There’s madness in their Method(ology) for sure |  | | |
| Football Finances on 15:24 - Oct 14 with 1703 views | Northernr |
As Steve rightly says higher up, it's all wages. It's not even transfer fees (though they are utterly ridiculous now), it's wages.
I don't know how you get a hold of that because clubs have committed to contracts for the next 3/4/5 years, so you can't suddenly turn around to them and say right we're imposing a salary cap etc. You'd also be immediately challenged (and probably lose) by the PFA for restricting their members' earning potential.
There was an amazing opportunity to grasp this when ITV Digital went bust. Clubs like Tranmere, Port Vale, Grimsby, Stockport who were First Div at the time basically went to the wall immediately and have never recovered. That could have been a moment. Man City and the regulator might be another moment but it's tricky.
Some levers I would pull...
- Ditch parachute payments, spread that money across the EFL. They were once needed as protection against a financial cliff edge, now teams coming down can sell all their mediocre players for big money anyway so it's just a massive unnecessary extra advantage for them. West Ham and Southampton have sold £400m worth of players since they were relegated.
- Ban leveraged takeovers. As much as Man City are the bad guys now and deserve everything coming to them, what's gone on at Man Utd is far worse for clubs and for the sport. Burnley have gone from a debt free model Premier League club to £80m in the red at the bottom of the Championship.
- Completely ditch and re-write the EPPP laws which encourage a tiny group of Chelsea-type clubs to hoard all the young talent in giant youth academies with little ambition to ever play them in their first team. Force young talent to stay at EFL clubs for longer, and properly compensate them when they leave. We'd be able to bridge the gap a lot easier if a few of those Harvey Elliott and Alfie Gilchrist types had gone for proper money.
- Debt to equity. Let owners spend what they like, but if it goes wrong it's on them. As long as you're converting debt to equity, and losing your money, owners should be allowed to try and build their clubs up with their money. |  | | |
| Football Finances on 15:35 - Oct 14 with 1650 views | KensalT |
| Football Finances on 15:24 - Oct 14 by Northernr |
As Steve rightly says higher up, it's all wages. It's not even transfer fees (though they are utterly ridiculous now), it's wages.
I don't know how you get a hold of that because clubs have committed to contracts for the next 3/4/5 years, so you can't suddenly turn around to them and say right we're imposing a salary cap etc. You'd also be immediately challenged (and probably lose) by the PFA for restricting their members' earning potential.
There was an amazing opportunity to grasp this when ITV Digital went bust. Clubs like Tranmere, Port Vale, Grimsby, Stockport who were First Div at the time basically went to the wall immediately and have never recovered. That could have been a moment. Man City and the regulator might be another moment but it's tricky.
Some levers I would pull...
- Ditch parachute payments, spread that money across the EFL. They were once needed as protection against a financial cliff edge, now teams coming down can sell all their mediocre players for big money anyway so it's just a massive unnecessary extra advantage for them. West Ham and Southampton have sold £400m worth of players since they were relegated.
- Ban leveraged takeovers. As much as Man City are the bad guys now and deserve everything coming to them, what's gone on at Man Utd is far worse for clubs and for the sport. Burnley have gone from a debt free model Premier League club to £80m in the red at the bottom of the Championship.
- Completely ditch and re-write the EPPP laws which encourage a tiny group of Chelsea-type clubs to hoard all the young talent in giant youth academies with little ambition to ever play them in their first team. Force young talent to stay at EFL clubs for longer, and properly compensate them when they leave. We'd be able to bridge the gap a lot easier if a few of those Harvey Elliott and Alfie Gilchrist types had gone for proper money.
- Debt to equity. Let owners spend what they like, but if it goes wrong it's on them. As long as you're converting debt to equity, and losing your money, owners should be allowed to try and build their clubs up with their money. |
Agree with all of that, but none of it (apart from rewriting EPPP) puts the brakes on the big clubs getting bigger and bigger. | | | |
| Football Finances on 17:21 - Oct 14 with 1460 views | Match82 |
| Football Finances on 11:34 - Oct 14 by Clive_Anderson |
"17 clubs across the EFL and National League would be loss-making even if their players played for free"
How is that even possible? Surely maintaining a stadium and some non-playing staff can be covered by several thousand turning up every game along with some TV money? |
Is there any chance this includes transfer fees (not wages)? Because otherwise I agree. I'd be surprised if maintenance costs have outpaced ticket price increases over the past decade or two, but could be wrong |  | | |
| Football Finances on 17:29 - Oct 14 with 1426 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
All to compete in a league that is bent! | | | |
| Football Finances on 17:42 - Oct 14 with 1377 views | PunteR |
| Football Finances on 15:35 - Oct 14 by KensalT |
Agree with all of that, but none of it (apart from rewriting EPPP) puts the brakes on the big clubs getting bigger and bigger. |
Is it big clubs getting bigger or is it just the wealth gap getting bigger ? . All those things Norf has suggested helps bridge that gap. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Football Finances on 19:55 - Oct 14 with 1132 views | derbyhoop |
Far too many clubs, including QPR, are living way beyond their means. The parachute payments to relegated clubs are excessive and distort the Championship. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Football Finances on 10:07 - Oct 15 with 676 views | PlanetHonneywood |
There's another issue here of the amount of money going abroad in the form of transfer and agents' fees, and wages the players/coaches may take out of the UK economy.
The former is where we should have most concerns, because that is money that traditionally filtered down from the top of the English game to lower league clubs. Instead, clubs in the Prem and of course, in the Championship, are now sending billions overseas on a yearly basis and the trickle down isn't happening. Bizarrely, given that a Nobel prize for economics went to a debunking of the theory, I'd suggest in English football, it actually worked before 1992.
As someone said above: all to get into a bent league that requires you to spend millions you don't have to just stand still in it!
Fck 'em! | |
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| Football Finances on 10:53 - Oct 15 with 622 views | nix |
| Football Finances on 15:24 - Oct 14 by Northernr |
As Steve rightly says higher up, it's all wages. It's not even transfer fees (though they are utterly ridiculous now), it's wages.
I don't know how you get a hold of that because clubs have committed to contracts for the next 3/4/5 years, so you can't suddenly turn around to them and say right we're imposing a salary cap etc. You'd also be immediately challenged (and probably lose) by the PFA for restricting their members' earning potential.
There was an amazing opportunity to grasp this when ITV Digital went bust. Clubs like Tranmere, Port Vale, Grimsby, Stockport who were First Div at the time basically went to the wall immediately and have never recovered. That could have been a moment. Man City and the regulator might be another moment but it's tricky.
Some levers I would pull...
- Ditch parachute payments, spread that money across the EFL. They were once needed as protection against a financial cliff edge, now teams coming down can sell all their mediocre players for big money anyway so it's just a massive unnecessary extra advantage for them. West Ham and Southampton have sold £400m worth of players since they were relegated.
- Ban leveraged takeovers. As much as Man City are the bad guys now and deserve everything coming to them, what's gone on at Man Utd is far worse for clubs and for the sport. Burnley have gone from a debt free model Premier League club to £80m in the red at the bottom of the Championship.
- Completely ditch and re-write the EPPP laws which encourage a tiny group of Chelsea-type clubs to hoard all the young talent in giant youth academies with little ambition to ever play them in their first team. Force young talent to stay at EFL clubs for longer, and properly compensate them when they leave. We'd be able to bridge the gap a lot easier if a few of those Harvey Elliott and Alfie Gilchrist types had gone for proper money.
- Debt to equity. Let owners spend what they like, but if it goes wrong it's on them. As long as you're converting debt to equity, and losing your money, owners should be allowed to try and build their clubs up with their money. |
You should write an article like that for the mainstream press Clive if you haven’t already. It’s absolutely spot on. I was going to say the same about parachute payments and I’ve been banging on about the Chelsea puppy farm for years. It’s really eroded the lower league’s opportunity to raise funds by selling players to the bigger clubs. They really should limit how many young players they can hoover up. |  | | |
| Football Finances on 11:02 - Oct 15 with 605 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| Football Finances on 10:53 - Oct 15 by nix |
You should write an article like that for the mainstream press Clive if you haven’t already. It’s absolutely spot on. I was going to say the same about parachute payments and I’ve been banging on about the Chelsea puppy farm for years. It’s really eroded the lower league’s opportunity to raise funds by selling players to the bigger clubs. They really should limit how many young players they can hoover up. |
Stupid question, but if you allow a owner to spend what they want where does responsibility lie for paying players wages should a owner go bankrupt?
Would that not be the club? | |
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| Football Finances on 11:25 - Oct 15 with 572 views | TheChef |
Thought I had posted here but think forgot to click send...
Like everything else in life nowadays, European football in particular is skewed to the 1% of clubs winning all the time and making as much money as possible.
The days of the European Cup in the 70s and 80s, when you had a wide variety of clubs winning it, are long gone.
Sad. |  |
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| Football Finances on 12:59 - Oct 15 with 429 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| Football Finances on 11:25 - Oct 15 by TheChef |
Thought I had posted here but think forgot to click send...
Like everything else in life nowadays, European football in particular is skewed to the 1% of clubs winning all the time and making as much money as possible.
The days of the European Cup in the 70s and 80s, when you had a wide variety of clubs winning it, are long gone.
Sad. |
In the 70s, only five different teams won the European Cup. Since 2016, there have been six different winners. The 1980s however, every f.....g team won it, except us!
But I get you point: the drawbridge is being pulled up, and only the rich will dine at the top table and the rest of us will fight for the scraps.
Thing is: if the top clubs do eff off one day, their intergalactic competitions will be dull and just as the Championship is far more interesting than the Prem now, we might, and that's a big might, be in a far more interesting and enjoyable set-up. | |
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| Football Finances on 15:39 - Oct 15 with 284 views | TheChef |
| Football Finances on 12:59 - Oct 15 by PlanetHonneywood |
In the 70s, only five different teams won the European Cup. Since 2016, there have been six different winners. The 1980s however, every f.....g team won it, except us!
But I get you point: the drawbridge is being pulled up, and only the rich will dine at the top table and the rest of us will fight for the scraps.
Thing is: if the top clubs do eff off one day, their intergalactic competitions will be dull and just as the Championship is far more interesting than the Prem now, we might, and that's a big might, be in a far more interesting and enjoyable set-up. |
You might argue that with the approximation of a European Super League that the Champions League now looks like, it's already getting dull. | |
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| Football Finances on 15:47 - Oct 15 with 270 views | KensalT |
| Football Finances on 12:59 - Oct 15 by PlanetHonneywood |
In the 70s, only five different teams won the European Cup. Since 2016, there have been six different winners. The 1980s however, every f.....g team won it, except us!
But I get you point: the drawbridge is being pulled up, and only the rich will dine at the top table and the rest of us will fight for the scraps.
Thing is: if the top clubs do eff off one day, their intergalactic competitions will be dull and just as the Championship is far more interesting than the Prem now, we might, and that's a big might, be in a far more interesting and enjoyable set-up. |
In the 70's you had teams from Scotland, Holland, Greece, Belgium, and Sweden reaching the European Cup final.
Since 1996 there has only been one finalist from outside the 'Big 5' European leagues. That was Porto in 2004.
The drawbridge is already up. | | | |
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