| Thought's on this from Les on 19:57 - Oct 17 with 1240 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 05:25 - Oct 17 by VancouverHoop |
Aren't Sporting Director and Director of Football just a matter of semantics? It's not clear what the difference is to me. Does any club actually have both?
Yup, Lee Hoos is, essentially, Financial Director. He knows how much money the club has to spend, but doesn't control how they spend it. At least so far as the footballing side of things is concerned. |
They're not the same thing, as I explained in my previous post.
And Lee Hoos very much controls what is spent. CEO and Chairman head up the board. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:54]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 19:59 - Oct 17 with 1239 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 09:04 - Oct 17 by slmrstid |
Pedants Corner again but Lee Hoos is the Chief Executive Officer, he is not the Finance Director.
That role belongs to, and has for quite a long time, a chap called Ruban Ghandi. We never hear from him, but he is the FD, not Lee.
https://www.qpr.co.uk/club/staff-directory |
True but that's a recent reshuffle after Tony left. Hoos was CFO when Les was in town. Either way, Les was never in charge of finances. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:54]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:02 - Oct 17 with 1234 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 11:22 - Oct 17 by derbyhoop |
8 years ago what qualifications and experience would he have needed that he didn't have?
Years of playing at top level? YES
dealing with managers, contracts and agents? YES
coaching qualifications? YES
A knowledge of player databases and analytics on a par with Andy Belk or Matthew Benham's companies? NO.
The last is why you employ specialists. |
I very much doubt that Les dealt with contracts in his playing days. The only agent he would have dealt was his own. And dealing with a manager in the changing room doesn't give you the experience required to be a director of football operations. | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:20 - Oct 17 with 1207 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 09:35 - Oct 17 by BrianMcCarthy |
Fair point that they worked together, but Hoos didn't do football back then as Clive always refers back to, so it was Ferdinand who had to bring in the players to replace the outgoing Premier League players. |
The point I'm debating is the notion that Les 'brought the wage bill down'. He didn't, this came down organically when the PL players left. He then had to work to a budget that Lee set and targeted players accordingly.
Neither Lee nor Les performed any witchcraft to get the wage bill down, it happened organically. When QPR were promoted to the PL in 2011, Tony went on a spending spree that inflated the wage bill to £70m+ pa. When QPR were subsequently relegated to the Championship they still had this wage bill for a spell because many of the players they'd acquired in the PL (e.g. Green, Dunne, Onuoha, Barton, Hoilett, Zamora, etc.) were on long-term contracts. It's only when these contracts expired that the wage bill went down.
Had Lee and Les convinced the aforementioned players to move on mid-contract, I would be prepared to give them credit. They didn't and the players saw out their contracts, much to QPR's financial chagrin.
In any event, given that the wage bill went north of £70m pa, bringing it back down to realistic levels can hardly be considered an achievement. QPR should never have been spending that kind of money on wages in the first place. It's a bit like me doing my weekly shop at Harrods for a year (even though I know full well I can't afford to), getting into debt, and then taking credit for bringing the weekly shopping bill down by switching to Aldi (where I should've of shopped in the first place). [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 20:48]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:44 - Oct 17 with 1154 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:20 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
The point I'm debating is the notion that Les 'brought the wage bill down'. He didn't, this came down organically when the PL players left. He then had to work to a budget that Lee set and targeted players accordingly.
Neither Lee nor Les performed any witchcraft to get the wage bill down, it happened organically. When QPR were promoted to the PL in 2011, Tony went on a spending spree that inflated the wage bill to £70m+ pa. When QPR were subsequently relegated to the Championship they still had this wage bill for a spell because many of the players they'd acquired in the PL (e.g. Green, Dunne, Onuoha, Barton, Hoilett, Zamora, etc.) were on long-term contracts. It's only when these contracts expired that the wage bill went down.
Had Lee and Les convinced the aforementioned players to move on mid-contract, I would be prepared to give them credit. They didn't and the players saw out their contracts, much to QPR's financial chagrin.
In any event, given that the wage bill went north of £70m pa, bringing it back down to realistic levels can hardly be considered an achievement. QPR should never have been spending that kind of money on wages in the first place. It's a bit like me doing my weekly shop at Harrods for a year (even though I know full well I can't afford to), getting into debt, and then taking credit for bringing the weekly shopping bill down by switching to Aldi (where I should've of shopped in the first place). [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 20:48]
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I agree completely on Point 1, Benny.
And I mostly agree with you on Point 2 as well. Where we differ slightly is that I think Ferdinand deserves credit for replacing the PL players with cheaper players while keeping us within the drastically-reducing wage structures, year-on-year. |  |
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:47 - Oct 17 with 1146 views | paulparker |
| Thought's on this from Les on 13:36 - Oct 16 by perpignanR |
Should have been in the ellerslie whenever Justin Fashanu played at HQ. Utterly disgusting. |
What game was that then ????
When Justin fashanu came out as gay he played for Torquay and we were in the premier league |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:53 - Oct 17 with 1133 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:44 - Oct 17 by BrianMcCarthy |
I agree completely on Point 1, Benny.
And I mostly agree with you on Point 2 as well. Where we differ slightly is that I think Ferdinand deserves credit for replacing the PL players with cheaper players while keeping us within the drastically-reducing wage structures, year-on-year. |
I agree with respect to recent years. However, when Les initially joined in 2014, QPR were still spending freely. Les didn't change that culture, the board switched strategy after the club was fined in 2018 and the PL players dropped off the wage bill.
Following this change in direction, Les deserves some credit for helping to keep QPR in the championship on a tight budget (notwithstanding the odd splurge on the likes of Austin and Johansen).
However, I can't help but feel that Les has deserted a sinking ship. If QPR go down this season, Les has to take some of the blame as he helped lay the current foundations. [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 21:06]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:55 - Oct 17 with 1122 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:53 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
I agree with respect to recent years. However, when Les initially joined in 2014, QPR were still spending freely. Les didn't change that culture, the board switched strategy after the club was fined in 2018 and the PL players dropped off the wage bill.
Following this change in direction, Les deserves some credit for helping to keep QPR in the championship on a tight budget (notwithstanding the odd splurge on the likes of Austin and Johansen).
However, I can't help but feel that Les has deserted a sinking ship. If QPR go down this season, Les has to take some of the blame as he helped lay the current foundations. [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 21:06]
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Not sure I agree with your revised version at all, and I see you've edited another previous post as well.
I enjoyed our earlier chat, and I agreed with you most of the way before your edits.
Let's just leave it, you know my point of view from earlier.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 23:22]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 20:56 - Oct 17 with 1123 views | ChrisNW6 |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:02 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
I very much doubt that Les dealt with contracts in his playing days. The only agent he would have dealt was his own. And dealing with a manager in the changing room doesn't give you the experience required to be a director of football operations. |
I can't be arsed to check every DOFs background but the vast majority seem to be ex players with limited experience before moving into the role. Mark Noble went from playing directly into the role at West Ham, as did Edu and Craig Gardener. But I am sure they are all Deep Thinkers.
I can see from your posts you want to dismiss the 8yrs of work Les did and any positives are down to luck or natural events.
The list below is a few years old now
PREMIER LEAGUE
Arsenal: Technical Director - Edu
Aston Villa: Sporting Director - Johan Lange
Brentford: Director of Football - Phil Giles
Brighton: Technical Director (Acting) - David Weir
Burnley: Technical Director - NONE
Chelsea: NONE (Petr Cech is Technical and Performance Advisor & Marina Granovskaia is Director)
Crystal Palace: Sporting Director - Dougie Freedman
Everton: Director of Football - NONE
Leeds United: Director of Football - Victor Orta
Leicester City: Director of Football - Jon Rudkin
Liverpool: Sporting Director - Michael Edwards
Manchester City: Director of Football - Txiki Begiristain
Manchester United: Football Director- John Murtough
Newcastle United: NONE
Norwich City: Sporting Director - Stuart Webber
Southampton: Director of Football Operations - Matt Crocker
Tottenham: Managing Director, Football - Fabio Paratici
Watford: Sporting Director - Cristiano Giaretta
West Ham: NONE
Wolves: Technical Director - Scott Sellars
CHAMPIONSHIP
Bournemouth: Technical Director - Richard Hughes
Barnsley: NONE
Birmingham City: Technical Director - Craig Gardner
Blackburn Rovers: NONE
Blackpool: Head of Football Operations - John Stephenson
Bristol City: NONE
Cardiff City: NONE
Coventry City: NONE
Derby County: NONE
Fulham: Director of Football Operations - Tony Khan
Huddersfield Town: Head of Football Operations - Leigh Bromby
Hull City: NONE
Luton Town: NONE
Middlesbrough: Head of Football - Kieran Scott
Millwall: NONE
Nottingham Forest: Director of Football - Kyriakos Dourekas
Peterborough United: Director of Football - Barry Fry
Preston North End: NONE
QPR: Director of Football - Les Ferdinand
Reading: NONE
Sheffield United: NONE
Stoke City: Head of Football Operations - Andy Cousins
Swansea City: Sporting Director - Mark Allen
West Brom: NONE [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 20:58]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 21:07 - Oct 17 with 1083 views | daveB |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:02 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
I very much doubt that Les dealt with contracts in his playing days. The only agent he would have dealt was his own. And dealing with a manager in the changing room doesn't give you the experience required to be a director of football operations. |
How do you get experience without doing the job?
It's a mad argument about his lack of experience when he got the job, no one has any experience in a role until they actually do it. |  | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:13 - Oct 17 with 1075 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:56 - Oct 17 by ChrisNW6 |
I can't be arsed to check every DOFs background but the vast majority seem to be ex players with limited experience before moving into the role. Mark Noble went from playing directly into the role at West Ham, as did Edu and Craig Gardener. But I am sure they are all Deep Thinkers.
I can see from your posts you want to dismiss the 8yrs of work Les did and any positives are down to luck or natural events.
The list below is a few years old now
PREMIER LEAGUE
Arsenal: Technical Director - Edu
Aston Villa: Sporting Director - Johan Lange
Brentford: Director of Football - Phil Giles
Brighton: Technical Director (Acting) - David Weir
Burnley: Technical Director - NONE
Chelsea: NONE (Petr Cech is Technical and Performance Advisor & Marina Granovskaia is Director)
Crystal Palace: Sporting Director - Dougie Freedman
Everton: Director of Football - NONE
Leeds United: Director of Football - Victor Orta
Leicester City: Director of Football - Jon Rudkin
Liverpool: Sporting Director - Michael Edwards
Manchester City: Director of Football - Txiki Begiristain
Manchester United: Football Director- John Murtough
Newcastle United: NONE
Norwich City: Sporting Director - Stuart Webber
Southampton: Director of Football Operations - Matt Crocker
Tottenham: Managing Director, Football - Fabio Paratici
Watford: Sporting Director - Cristiano Giaretta
West Ham: NONE
Wolves: Technical Director - Scott Sellars
CHAMPIONSHIP
Bournemouth: Technical Director - Richard Hughes
Barnsley: NONE
Birmingham City: Technical Director - Craig Gardner
Blackburn Rovers: NONE
Blackpool: Head of Football Operations - John Stephenson
Bristol City: NONE
Cardiff City: NONE
Coventry City: NONE
Derby County: NONE
Fulham: Director of Football Operations - Tony Khan
Huddersfield Town: Head of Football Operations - Leigh Bromby
Hull City: NONE
Luton Town: NONE
Middlesbrough: Head of Football - Kieran Scott
Millwall: NONE
Nottingham Forest: Director of Football - Kyriakos Dourekas
Peterborough United: Director of Football - Barry Fry
Preston North End: NONE
QPR: Director of Football - Les Ferdinand
Reading: NONE
Sheffield United: NONE
Stoke City: Head of Football Operations - Andy Cousins
Swansea City: Sporting Director - Mark Allen
West Brom: NONE [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 20:58]
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I see you're trying to manufacture a case for Les by comparing apples with pears. DoF is a different job to Technical Director which in turn is a different job to Sporting Director.
If we whittle your list down accordingly we're left with:
PREMIER LEAGUE
Brentford: Director of Football - Phil Giles
Leeds United: Director of Football - Victor Orta
Leicester City: Director of Football - Jon Rudkin
Manchester City: Director of Football - Txiki Begiristain
Manchester United: Football Director- John Murtough
Southampton: Director of Football Operations - Matt Crocker
CHAMPIONSHIP
Fulham: Director of Football Operations - Tony Khan
Nottingham Forest: Director of Football - Kyriakos Dourekas
Peterborough United: Director of Football - Barry Fry
QPR: Director of Football - Les Ferdinand
Not exactly an extensive list and certainly not dominated by ex-players. In addition, this list doesn't show their previous experience.
What stands out to me are the number of clubs that you've listed with 'NONE' in place. This begs the question, do QPR actually need a DoF? [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:57]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 21:14 - Oct 17 with 1074 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:07 - Oct 17 by daveB |
How do you get experience without doing the job?
It's a mad argument about his lack of experience when he got the job, no one has any experience in a role until they actually do it. |
I've already answered that question in a previous submission. You gain experience by performing junior management roles (e.g. senior manager, lead, head of, etc.) at a lower level.
For example, Paul Furlong is gaining experience by coaching at academy level, before working with the under-18s, and latterly the under-23s. He didn't look to jump straight into a first team coaching role immediately upon gaining his qualifications.
Jumping straight into a DoF role with no previous experience of managing football operations at any level is likely to result in failure. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:22]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 21:29 - Oct 17 with 1061 views | PunteR |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:07 - Oct 17 by daveB |
How do you get experience without doing the job?
It's a mad argument about his lack of experience when he got the job, no one has any experience in a role until they actually do it. |
Were QPR in a position to employ a novice at that particular time?
Maybe ive over estimated the role at a football club. Looking at chrisNW6 list of clubs from prem to championship there's actually not that many DoFs . Some clubs doing far better without one.
The main thing for me when we look at his time here is we've steadily got worse and that's that really in my eyes. The main culprits are the owners of course but i think its a bit far fetched to say Les was a success.
This whole racist angle Les claimed is an entirely different thing altogether and is a real shame. Plus saying things got toxic towards the end. Was that within the club or fans treatment of him. ? |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Thought's on this from Les on 21:44 - Oct 17 with 1040 views | slmrstid |
| Thought's on this from Les on 19:59 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
True but that's a recent reshuffle after Tony left. Hoos was CFO when Les was in town. Either way, Les was never in charge of finances. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:54]
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Afraid that's not right Benny, Lee Hoos has been Chief Executive Officer at QPR since he arrived in 2015, and Ruben Ghandi has been Finance Director for the same timeframe.
That's from both of their LinkedIn profiles. Its definitely not a recent thing. |  | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:50 - Oct 17 with 1021 views | rsocks |
Hello | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:59 - Oct 17 with 1014 views | ChrisNW6 |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:13 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
I see you're trying to manufacture a case for Les by comparing apples with pears. DoF is a different job to Technical Director which in turn is a different job to Sporting Director.
If we whittle your list down accordingly we're left with:
PREMIER LEAGUE
Brentford: Director of Football - Phil Giles
Leeds United: Director of Football - Victor Orta
Leicester City: Director of Football - Jon Rudkin
Manchester City: Director of Football - Txiki Begiristain
Manchester United: Football Director- John Murtough
Southampton: Director of Football Operations - Matt Crocker
CHAMPIONSHIP
Fulham: Director of Football Operations - Tony Khan
Nottingham Forest: Director of Football - Kyriakos Dourekas
Peterborough United: Director of Football - Barry Fry
QPR: Director of Football - Les Ferdinand
Not exactly an extensive list and certainly not dominated by ex-players. In addition, this list doesn't show their previous experience.
What stands out to me are the number of clubs that you've listed with 'NONE' in place. This begs the question, do QPR actually need a DoF? [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:57]
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The list was a few years old but I think director of football is also sometimes also called a sporting director or technical director. The roles are basically the same and it's down to the naming convention the club adopts. | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 23:08 - Oct 17 with 914 views | QPR_Jim |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:53 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
I agree with respect to recent years. However, when Les initially joined in 2014, QPR were still spending freely. Les didn't change that culture, the board switched strategy after the club was fined in 2018 and the PL players dropped off the wage bill.
Following this change in direction, Les deserves some credit for helping to keep QPR in the championship on a tight budget (notwithstanding the odd splurge on the likes of Austin and Johansen).
However, I can't help but feel that Les has deserted a sinking ship. If QPR go down this season, Les has to take some of the blame as he helped lay the current foundations. [Post edited 17 Oct 2023 21:06]
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Also not true, they immediately complied with FFP when relegated after LF's arrival cutting cost accordingly. If they hadn't they would have had another fine before 2018 for exceeding FFP limits in the championship. |  | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 23:59 - Oct 17 with 837 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 20:55 - Oct 17 by BrianMcCarthy |
Not sure I agree with your revised version at all, and I see you've edited another previous post as well.
I enjoyed our earlier chat, and I agreed with you most of the way before your edits.
Let's just leave it, you know my point of view from earlier.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2023 23:22]
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Edit was minor typo, underlying point the same. Ironically, you initially responded to the edited version. I actually think that we broadly agree but your prerogative to change your mind.
My overriding view remains the same. Over the course of 9 years in the role, Les was a fairly poor DoF for reasons other than his colour. That being said, I believe he was set up to fail because the board hired him for the wrong reasons. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:07]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 00:04 - Oct 18 with 820 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Thought's on this from Les on 23:59 - Oct 17 by Benny_the_Ball |
Edit was minor typo, underlying point the same. Ironically, you initially responded to the edited version. I actually think that we broadly agree but your prerogative to change your mind.
My overriding view remains the same. Over the course of 9 years in the role, Les was a fairly poor DoF for reasons other than his colour. That being said, I believe he was set up to fail because the board hired him for the wrong reasons. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 0:07]
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It was your edit about him deserting a sinking ship that I didn't agree with, Benny.
I don't agree with that and the edit changed the nature of my previous response to your original post which was "Fair enough". Felt I had to clarify that. | |
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| Thought's on this from Les on 00:13 - Oct 18 with 794 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:59 - Oct 17 by ChrisNW6 |
The list was a few years old but I think director of football is also sometimes also called a sporting director or technical director. The roles are basically the same and it's down to the naming convention the club adopts. |
No, they're not. I've lost count of the number of times folk said that weren't even sure what a DoF does so trying to now argue that it's the same as every other role is rather fanciful. | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 00:33 - Oct 18 with 779 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 21:44 - Oct 17 by slmrstid |
Afraid that's not right Benny, Lee Hoos has been Chief Executive Officer at QPR since he arrived in 2015, and Ruben Ghandi has been Finance Director for the same timeframe.
That's from both of their LinkedIn profiles. Its definitely not a recent thing. |
Fair enough but either way you've confirmed my baseline argument; namely that Les wasn't in charge of the finances so he can't be credited with reducing the wage bill. Yes, in later years he operated under fiscal constraints but that budget was not decided by Les. | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 00:46 - Oct 18 with 771 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 23:08 - Oct 17 by QPR_Jim |
Also not true, they immediately complied with FFP when relegated after LF's arrival cutting cost accordingly. If they hadn't they would have had another fine before 2018 for exceeding FFP limits in the championship. |
Incorrect. The FFP fine, though metered out in 2018, related to overspending in the championship in 2014. The wage bill was £75m (double turnover) because we still had PL players on long contracts. The cost cutting couldn't start in earnest until these contracts expired.
In any event, we've established that LF was not in charge of the finances so he can't be credited with cost cutting.
I understand that there is a lot of love for Les, because he was a great player. However his track record as DoF was poor, that's why he's no longer in the role. Trying to justify this record by crediting him with the work of others smacks of desperation, as are his attempts to divert attention by steering the conversation to colour.
My respect for the man remains undiminished because of what he achieved as a player however I won't allow this to cloud my opinion of his performance as DoF. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 1:21]
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| Thought's on this from Les on 00:49 - Oct 18 with 769 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Thought's on this from Les on 00:04 - Oct 18 by BrianMcCarthy |
It was your edit about him deserting a sinking ship that I didn't agree with, Benny.
I don't agree with that and the edit changed the nature of my previous response to your original post which was "Fair enough". Felt I had to clarify that. |
Like I said, your prerogative. Frankly yours is the only argument that I've found to be lucid and logical, even if we don't agree on every single point. | | | |
| Thought's on this from Les on 08:01 - Oct 18 with 658 views | QPR_Jim |
| Thought's on this from Les on 00:46 - Oct 18 by Benny_the_Ball |
Incorrect. The FFP fine, though metered out in 2018, related to overspending in the championship in 2014. The wage bill was £75m (double turnover) because we still had PL players on long contracts. The cost cutting couldn't start in earnest until these contracts expired.
In any event, we've established that LF was not in charge of the finances so he can't be credited with cost cutting.
I understand that there is a lot of love for Les, because he was a great player. However his track record as DoF was poor, that's why he's no longer in the role. Trying to justify this record by crediting him with the work of others smacks of desperation, as are his attempts to divert attention by steering the conversation to colour.
My respect for the man remains undiminished because of what he achieved as a player however I won't allow this to cloud my opinion of his performance as DoF. [Post edited 18 Oct 2023 1:21]
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The fine was for 2013-14, Les joined 2014-15 and we started cutting costs in the championship 2015-16, not when the fine was eventually settled. If we hadn't started cutting the budget straight away we would have had another fine.
We have established that someone else set the budget, whoopee. LF was working on the footballing side of keeping us in the championship while the budget was cut year on year which was the challenge. Setting the budget is an accounting exercise that anyone could have done. Where LH did well if anything was to find additional revenue and cut non footballing costs to maximise the footballing budget.
The cost cutting solely wasn't down to contracts expiring either, we loaned out players like Caulker and sold other players. They are examples of the DoF influencing the budget available rather than just waiting for contracts to expire as you suggest.
He was here for 8 years and (bar a vocal minority) my recollection is that most were happy with his performance for the first 5 years at least, so reminding people of that isn't trying to justify his record it's more a case of setting the record straight. No need to tarnish his early work just because it ended badly (which was partly due to owners and managers too) in the same way you wouldn't tarnish his playing career because of how his time as DoF ended. | | | |
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