| 4-4-2: the people's formation 17:57 - Oct 29 with 1751 views | FDC |
Two points
1. My assumption has always been that Ramsey was tasked with establishing an ethos at the club, including setting out a route from the youth teams into the first team, and that this involved developing an identifiable way in which the first team plays. This would put an end to the scattergun transfer policy and make it easier to identify transfer targets, and easier to develop players in the youth team so that they fitted into the first team. I actually think he and everyone else assumed that Austin would leave, and that his staying has muddied the waters a bit, in terms of club finances obviously but also in terms of team shape. As everyone keeps saying, whilst his goal tally attests to his ability to play alone up front, he would be even better in a 442. Either way, I don't think 442 is the way Ramsey wants to work. And that he is vigilantly sticking to 451 I think says something about his wanting to establish some kind of system. Clive has mentioned a few times that Ramsey has said his preferred formation is 433. I'm no tactician, but I'd argue that a 433 is closer to a 451 than a 442 in terms of how you man the midfield, and that maybe after the transfer window was shut 451 became the necessary Plan B. This will take time, but having a system for which the club can identify potential future additions is surely a better approach than what has gone before.
2. Lots on here keep saying we need to play two up front and Ramsey has just said he hopes to play JET and Austin together at the weekend. When inevitably that ends up with JET as one of the wide midfield players it's going to go off on here again.
As far as i can see the squad simply isnt there for 442. Can anyone who wants two up front suggest a sensible midfield four, and specifically a centre midfield pairing? [Post edited 29 Oct 2015 18:16]
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:12 - Oct 29 with 1712 views | Hoop_Du_Jour |
"Can anyone who wants two up front suggest a sensible midfield four, and specifically a centre midfield pairing?"
Yes, but we'd have to wait for the January transfer window to get them. |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:32 - Oct 29 with 1675 views | ingeminate |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:12 - Oct 29 by Hoop_Du_Jour |
"Can anyone who wants two up front suggest a sensible midfield four, and specifically a centre midfield pairing?"
Yes, but we'd have to wait for the January transfer window to get them. |
I'm not sure we should play 442 but if we did. I"d go for
Austin Jet
Phillips. Faurlin, Sandro, Cherry
Tough on Luongo and Fer |  |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:16 - Oct 29 with 1613 views | derbyhoop |
Once on a time the English game was wedded to full backs, centre halfs, wing halfs, inside forwards, wingers and a centre forward in a 3-2-5 formation. It worked OK until Hungary took us apart 6-3 and 7-1 in 1953.
By the time we got to 1966 we'd moved on to 4-4-2 with no conventional wingers. Some might argue that the formation helped us win the World Cup and it was nothing to do with having at least 4 world class players in the team.
If it worked OK in 1966 why won't it work nearly 50 years later? Because teams have got a lot smarter in that time. There is barely a decent side in Europe that plays 2 conventional strikers.
For us, we only have 2 such senior strikers in the squad, Charlie and Polter. JET is more of an attacking midfielder who has been pressed into service as a target man in a 4-2-3-1 setup. We could, in theory, play a more conventional 4-4-2 but that would involve the midfield 4 doing their defensive jobs effectively. I can't see that happening with Phillips, Chery, Fer, Hoilett and I don't believe Tozser, Henry or Faurlin could cover enough ground to make up for the others lack of defensive capability. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:18 - Oct 29 with 1602 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Am I still the only one who thinks the current set up is fine? |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:51 - Oct 29 with 1548 views | Hooparoo |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:18 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Am I still the only one who thinks the current set up is fine? |
Probably. |  |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 20:06 - Oct 29 with 1521 views | exiled_dictator |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:51 - Oct 29 by Hooparoo |
Probably. |
you, chris ramsey, les ferdinand and tony fernandes. |  |
| It's not what you've got; it's where you stick it. | | Poll: | Climate Change |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 20:10 - Oct 29 with 1514 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 20:06 - Oct 29 by exiled_dictator |
you, chris ramsey, les ferdinand and tony fernandes. |
Good company then. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 20:15 - Oct 29 with 1509 views | CamberleyR |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:16 - Oct 29 by derbyhoop |
Once on a time the English game was wedded to full backs, centre halfs, wing halfs, inside forwards, wingers and a centre forward in a 3-2-5 formation. It worked OK until Hungary took us apart 6-3 and 7-1 in 1953.
By the time we got to 1966 we'd moved on to 4-4-2 with no conventional wingers. Some might argue that the formation helped us win the World Cup and it was nothing to do with having at least 4 world class players in the team.
If it worked OK in 1966 why won't it work nearly 50 years later? Because teams have got a lot smarter in that time. There is barely a decent side in Europe that plays 2 conventional strikers.
For us, we only have 2 such senior strikers in the squad, Charlie and Polter. JET is more of an attacking midfielder who has been pressed into service as a target man in a 4-2-3-1 setup. We could, in theory, play a more conventional 4-4-2 but that would involve the midfield 4 doing their defensive jobs effectively. I can't see that happening with Phillips, Chery, Fer, Hoilett and I don't believe Tozser, Henry or Faurlin could cover enough ground to make up for the others lack of defensive capability. |
It could be argued (and has been) that Ramsey's "wingless wonders" formation was actually a fluid 4-3-3.
It had two conventional strikers with Hunt and Greaves/Hurst but one of the two wide players in the four (Peters left, Ball right) were given licence to support the front two at any one time with the others playing as a narrow three.
For what it's worth with our squad, you could perm any two in centre mid and most of them would get completely overrun as none of them are very quick or mobile. |  |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 21:33 - Oct 29 with 1463 views | francisbowles |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 20:10 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Good company then. |
I agree with you as well. However,it will be interesting to see how we manage to get Jet and Austin on the pitch together and who we will leave out. |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 22:30 - Oct 29 with 1409 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 21:33 - Oct 29 by francisbowles |
I agree with you as well. However,it will be interesting to see how we manage to get Jet and Austin on the pitch together and who we will leave out. |
Nice headache to have, sort of. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:04 - Oct 30 with 1306 views | JordanFoster |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:32 - Oct 29 by ingeminate |
I'm not sure we should play 442 but if we did. I"d go for
Austin Jet
Phillips. Faurlin, Sandro, Cherry
Tough on Luongo and Fer |
Never mind Luongo and Fer, it's tough on Faurlin and Sandro. The pair can't run. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:18 - Oct 30 with 1287 views | FDC |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:04 - Oct 30 by JordanFoster |
Never mind Luongo and Fer, it's tough on Faurlin and Sandro. The pair can't run. |
Also tough on the poor sods at center back, having players running at them for 90 minutes. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:25 - Oct 30 with 1275 views | baz_qpr |
One of them does not have to, one can sit, in fact in theory both can sit as the only differences between 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 is the the 10 is pushed up alongside the 9 and the wingers start a little deeper with one of those charged with going outside and hugging the line and the other tucking in more ala Martin Rowlands.
Ramsey has never played 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 that I can remember |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:47 - Oct 30 with 1243 views | RBlock |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:32 - Oct 29 by ingeminate |
I'm not sure we should play 442 but if we did. I"d go for
Austin Jet
Phillips. Faurlin, Sandro, Cherry
Tough on Luongo and Fer |
Ye that midfield would get slaughtered. Faurlin, and I do absolutely adore the man, would not work in a flat 4 midfield, he just doesn't have the legs to get up and down. Luongo I think would do a better job of that, definitely. |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:59 - Oct 30 with 1228 views | Mvpeter |
A midfield two of Luongo and Sandro/Faurlin would give better protection to the back four than Toszer and Henry who offer extremely little defensively as well as being unable to retain possession which also increases the pressure on them IMO.
I honestly think this is a, thankfully dying, myth that Henry 'puts in a shift.'
If he makes two tackles today I'll be shocked. | |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:05 - Oct 30 with 1219 views | baz_qpr |
I thought Henry did much better on Saturday but when the game goes ping pong its too fast for him which is why he is more effective in the premiership or against teams that like to pass it around the team and through midfield rather than those that go over the top. Sandro is more mobile and more physical | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:05 - Oct 30 with 1218 views | Tonto |
I don't understand the English (British) obsession with 4-4-2.
Everytime we win a game, the formation is not mentioned, as soon as we lose one its all "we should be playing 4-4-2".
If you want to create a competitive advantage you need to innovate not replicate. |  |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:12 - Oct 30 with 1207 views | JordanFoster |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 08:25 - Oct 30 by baz_qpr |
One of them does not have to, one can sit, in fact in theory both can sit as the only differences between 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 is the the 10 is pushed up alongside the 9 and the wingers start a little deeper with one of those charged with going outside and hugging the line and the other tucking in more ala Martin Rowlands.
Ramsey has never played 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 that I can remember |
In theory yes, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot of talk about the midfielder's being over-run - which is true - we obviously don't have the players to play a flat 4-4-2.
We also have a really slow back four barring Onuoha, playing a 4-2-3-1 allows for them to be protected (Look at Chelsea and John Terry, for years he's had a Mikel/Ramires character in front of him. They provide the legs, it's why he's been able to play at the top level for so long despite never having pace.), especially now Clint Hill is back in the team. We also play really deep to protect this, team that have pacey forwards and play a counter acting game have done well this year. Teams like MK Dons that play a slow possession game, have not.
For most game this year Ramsey has deployed a 4-2-3-1 when in possession and a 4-5-1 when out of it. I think this is another reason why Luongo has been deployed as a No.10, at the minute I don't think he can be play deeper, but he can act as another midfielder buzzing around for the two deeper midfielders. When the ball is won he can also get up to support the lone striker, as well as being able to run beyond him when needed.
4-2-3-1 also allows Ramsey to play the type of football he wants, it allows you to play through the thirds and is far more fluid that 4-4-2. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:16 - Oct 30 with 1199 views | qpr1976 |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:12 - Oct 30 by JordanFoster |
In theory yes, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot of talk about the midfielder's being over-run - which is true - we obviously don't have the players to play a flat 4-4-2.
We also have a really slow back four barring Onuoha, playing a 4-2-3-1 allows for them to be protected (Look at Chelsea and John Terry, for years he's had a Mikel/Ramires character in front of him. They provide the legs, it's why he's been able to play at the top level for so long despite never having pace.), especially now Clint Hill is back in the team. We also play really deep to protect this, team that have pacey forwards and play a counter acting game have done well this year. Teams like MK Dons that play a slow possession game, have not.
For most game this year Ramsey has deployed a 4-2-3-1 when in possession and a 4-5-1 when out of it. I think this is another reason why Luongo has been deployed as a No.10, at the minute I don't think he can be play deeper, but he can act as another midfielder buzzing around for the two deeper midfielders. When the ball is won he can also get up to support the lone striker, as well as being able to run beyond him when needed.
4-2-3-1 also allows Ramsey to play the type of football he wants, it allows you to play through the thirds and is far more fluid that 4-4-2. |
CM of Sandro & Luongo for me. | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:58 - Oct 30 with 1174 views | robith |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 18:32 - Oct 29 by ingeminate |
I'm not sure we should play 442 but if we did. I"d go for
Austin Jet
Phillips. Faurlin, Sandro, Cherry
Tough on Luongo and Fer |
Faurlin and Sandro in a 2 man central midfield? That will get totally overwhelmed |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 10:03 - Oct 30 with 1165 views | robith |
442 is a dying formation to be honest, not because of any tactical reason (I'm not a fan but it has a role) but just that youth systems are dominated by the bigger clubs now and they don't produce the types of players who can play in it - mainly out and out wingers and central midfielders can defend and attack | | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 10:07 - Oct 30 with 1155 views | daveB |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 19:18 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Am I still the only one who thinks the current set up is fine? |
i think the current system we are using is fine as well |  | | |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 14:20 - Oct 30 with 1063 views | Mvpeter |
If ya smeeeeeeellll.....what the Ram....is coooking!!! | |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 14:40 - Oct 30 with 1047 views | hopphoops |
I was in a back 2 in a 2-3-5 until i was 13. |  |
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| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 21:49 - Oct 30 with 984 views | baz_qpr |
| 4-4-2: the people's formation on 09:12 - Oct 30 by JordanFoster |
In theory yes, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot of talk about the midfielder's being over-run - which is true - we obviously don't have the players to play a flat 4-4-2.
We also have a really slow back four barring Onuoha, playing a 4-2-3-1 allows for them to be protected (Look at Chelsea and John Terry, for years he's had a Mikel/Ramires character in front of him. They provide the legs, it's why he's been able to play at the top level for so long despite never having pace.), especially now Clint Hill is back in the team. We also play really deep to protect this, team that have pacey forwards and play a counter acting game have done well this year. Teams like MK Dons that play a slow possession game, have not.
For most game this year Ramsey has deployed a 4-2-3-1 when in possession and a 4-5-1 when out of it. I think this is another reason why Luongo has been deployed as a No.10, at the minute I don't think he can be play deeper, but he can act as another midfielder buzzing around for the two deeper midfielders. When the ball is won he can also get up to support the lone striker, as well as being able to run beyond him when needed.
4-2-3-1 also allows Ramsey to play the type of football he wants, it allows you to play through the thirds and is far more fluid that 4-4-2. |
So we saw a bit of both and the problems we have with both at the moment today. We were fairly defensively sound in either formation and pretty terrible going forward with both, and we certainly did not "play through the thirds" with either | | | |
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