| Bury FC and the EFL 08:09 - Aug 28 with 11429 views | Northolt_Rs |
Horrible, horrible news for all Bury fans and for the whole town. A complete tragedy. What on earth have the EFL been doing about this situation? How could they allow some w*nker with zero money to buy the club for £1 ???? Perhaps they should’ve taken some of their focus off hounding us over FFP to actually try and protect their member clubs. I am sure many of you are, like me, absolutely gutted for the Bury fans. This could so easily have been QPR FC a few years ago. It is time for the EFL to be ripped apart and to start again. Bury FC (and quite possibly BWFC) will be Shaun Harvey’s legacy. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 8:16]
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| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 12:01 - Aug 28 with 2508 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 10:46 - Aug 28 by Clive_Anderson |
Steve Dale is obviously a scumbag, but the real damage was done by the previous owner who racked up large debts against the stadium which is one of the reasons no one can afford to buy them. |
But not obvious to Shaun Harvey and his EFL scumbags.... | |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 12:26 - Aug 28 with 2452 views | connell10 |
Imagine never walking up loftus rd to our beloved stadium , never having a few pints with your mates before the game, never taking your seat just before kick off to watch Rangers play! Heartbreaking and really scary! RIP Bury. |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 12:48 - Aug 28 with 2392 views | johnhoop |
Makes you wonder what happened to the £20 million or so they fined us. I would have thought that an appropriate use for such funds would be the creation of an “Emergency Fund“ to use as a last resort to avert appalling situations such as this. |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 12:54 - Aug 28 with 2379 views | ManinBlack |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 11:51 - Aug 28 by headhoops |
so Bury has gone pop. Who gives a sh it? small time charlies, never won jacksh it. Suck it up.Meanwhile the super soaraway Sky Premier w@nkfest is back Saturday and its live!!!!
Tragic and feel so sorry for all Bury supporters. The EFL shows yet again that it is not fit and proper for purpose. |
There is a lot of truth in your opening sentences that the people at the top of the game, and many armchair fans, think there are too many league clubs in this country and are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
I work with some people, albeit some who hail from other countries, who believe that we need a cull of clubs lower down. We don't need four divisions I hear them say but as they were not born here they don't get the community thing. They reckon there are too many London clubs and that only Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham should exist. They cannot grasp that you need football clubs in west and south London too to represent their areas, instead they argue that a city doesn't need more than four football clubs.
No doubt all those abroad who tune in to Sky Sports for their diet of big clubs have the same disdain for Bury and co. Lesser clubs don't fit into the globalisation of football, it is all about the big names and big clubs. All these armchair fans will probably be bringing up their sons with the same philosophy to support a big club on telly who they may never see in real life. I am sure I am not the only one saddled with this type of work colleague on here.
Not one of my fellow Premier league supporting co-workers will watch any match outside of the Premier League and this attitude is possibly replicated around Britain. Bury won't be missed by them and the argument they have is that half of Bury support Man Utd anyway and watch them instead. Hard to argue with that as it could be a case of Bury being their second club whom they never watch anyway.
I suspect this big club outlook afflicts those within the EFL too. Deep down they probably don't give two hoots about QPR and the like. They may want to look after Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, Derby as the bigger fish in the EFL pool. As Villa and Wolves evaded financial fair play perhaps the EFL can fine QPR again to compensate... |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:20 - Aug 28 with 2303 views | cpgerber |
They will probably start again in somewhere non-league, but hard to really think that this is definitely the end of them. I can't imagine it all just being shut down and that't it. Hard years ahead, for sure, but I would imagine they will be back at some stage in one form or the other.
Unrelated, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago in which Bury was singled out has having some pretty hard core hooligans. Not living in the UK, I wouldn't know ... is that true? |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:29 - Aug 28 with 2262 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:20 - Aug 28 by cpgerber |
They will probably start again in somewhere non-league, but hard to really think that this is definitely the end of them. I can't imagine it all just being shut down and that't it. Hard years ahead, for sure, but I would imagine they will be back at some stage in one form or the other.
Unrelated, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago in which Bury was singled out has having some pretty hard core hooligans. Not living in the UK, I wouldn't know ... is that true? |
No. | |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:31 - Aug 28 with 2252 views | Gloucs_R |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:20 - Aug 28 by cpgerber |
They will probably start again in somewhere non-league, but hard to really think that this is definitely the end of them. I can't imagine it all just being shut down and that't it. Hard years ahead, for sure, but I would imagine they will be back at some stage in one form or the other.
Unrelated, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago in which Bury was singled out has having some pretty hard core hooligans. Not living in the UK, I wouldn't know ... is that true? |
It depends on the operating costs of their stadium and what their attendances are. It may not be cost-effective to restart the football club in the current stadium. |  |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:33 - Aug 28 with 2244 views | cpgerber |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:31 - Aug 28 by Gloucs_R |
It depends on the operating costs of their stadium and what their attendances are. It may not be cost-effective to restart the football club in the current stadium. |
No, but they could just move to another stadium and hit the "reset" button. Won't be the first or last club moving ground. | | | |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 13:44 - Aug 28 with 2214 views | Phildo |
When a club changes hands it should be a condition of remaining in the league that the clubs name, league membership and history are assigned to a trust - only effective if it falls into administration. It is probably not possible to secure the ground this way because of the need for the clubs to finance themselves using assets but this way the like of Bury could pass back to a fans group after an event like this albeit taking a league place further down the pyramid. It would introduce a moral hazard for owners behaving badly. Government could then pass some legislation stopping stadiums getting redeveloped -which would reduce the risk of developers posing as owners. It could be done if the will was there. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 13:50]
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:02 - Aug 28 with 2178 views | GroveR |
Harvey was an industrial-grade shìtcùnt; Jevans may be as bad or worse considering the following 3 pearlers:
"We need to sit back, we need to look back, we need to learn some lessons. I’m speaking personally, I’m speaking for myself here. I think absolutely we need to look at the spend of clubs as much as the revenues, and looking at salary caps is absolutely something that I think the clubs should consider."
"What we operated on is the rules that exist at the moment. Does that mean we need to look back and consider things? Absolutely it does.
Don’t forget that those rules are laid down by the 72 clubs.
What the EFL does is run the League; clubs run clubs and we operate within rules that are laid down and voted for by those clubs"
"If you look at a club like AFC Wimbledon, they started as a community club and applied to the FA, and they started very low down.
Now look at them; they’ve come back and got a new ground being built and are in League One."
So to distill:
1) it's the club's fault they don't impose a salary cap that would render them even more uncompetitive
2) it's the club's fault they made the rules that are pushing them out of business
3) the miracle AFC Wimbledon (a club charged with breaching EFL regulations for not using another club's full name) managed in spite of the most disgraceful decision in the history of the FA is "a good thing" for clubs to aspire to
My gob is well and truly smacked. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 14:16]
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:28 - Aug 28 with 2125 views | terryb |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 12:54 - Aug 28 by ManinBlack |
There is a lot of truth in your opening sentences that the people at the top of the game, and many armchair fans, think there are too many league clubs in this country and are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
I work with some people, albeit some who hail from other countries, who believe that we need a cull of clubs lower down. We don't need four divisions I hear them say but as they were not born here they don't get the community thing. They reckon there are too many London clubs and that only Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham should exist. They cannot grasp that you need football clubs in west and south London too to represent their areas, instead they argue that a city doesn't need more than four football clubs.
No doubt all those abroad who tune in to Sky Sports for their diet of big clubs have the same disdain for Bury and co. Lesser clubs don't fit into the globalisation of football, it is all about the big names and big clubs. All these armchair fans will probably be bringing up their sons with the same philosophy to support a big club on telly who they may never see in real life. I am sure I am not the only one saddled with this type of work colleague on here.
Not one of my fellow Premier league supporting co-workers will watch any match outside of the Premier League and this attitude is possibly replicated around Britain. Bury won't be missed by them and the argument they have is that half of Bury support Man Utd anyway and watch them instead. Hard to argue with that as it could be a case of Bury being their second club whom they never watch anyway.
I suspect this big club outlook afflicts those within the EFL too. Deep down they probably don't give two hoots about QPR and the like. They may want to look after Leeds, Forest, Wednesday, Derby as the bigger fish in the EFL pool. As Villa and Wolves evaded financial fair play perhaps the EFL can fine QPR again to compensate... |
IMO we need everyone of our divisions, right down to the Ipswich League Division four.
However, we don't need five national professional leagues! Plus some clubs below that are also full time. What profit is there for Barrow to travel to Boreham Wood to play in front of a crowd of 400? Actually, that is a bad example as Barrow's loss probably isn't as much as the home club!
Why? Because the clubs don't want to change & are afraid that regionalisation & semi-professionalism would be seen as a backward step. It is this attitude that needs changing if we are to reduce the number of football clubs that have financial problems.
Some level 7 clubs in the Southern League South Premier Division face up to 7 hours travelling for an away fixture (each way). The cost of that is enormous & may take place in midweek! I would hate to know what the total cost & hours are for Truro!
If a club at that level goes bust, it has the same effect on local business as the demise of Bury will.
That is why the whole structure of English football requires a radical overhaul! | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:38 - Aug 28 with 2102 views | Clive_Anderson |
Something that annoys me is people in the media saying these smaller teams are just not viable anymore.
It's a nonsense that a club that gets 3,000 supporters every home game is too small to survive. There are thousands of clubs that exist with less people than that around the world doing just fine.
The problem is they pay their players too much money.
Wimbledon were apparently not viable and had to be moved to Milton Keynes to survive. Oh look when the sht owners have gone it tuns out that they were viable all along and managed to get back in the league from nothing. What a surprise. | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:45 - Aug 28 with 2085 views | Boston |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:28 - Aug 28 by terryb |
IMO we need everyone of our divisions, right down to the Ipswich League Division four.
However, we don't need five national professional leagues! Plus some clubs below that are also full time. What profit is there for Barrow to travel to Boreham Wood to play in front of a crowd of 400? Actually, that is a bad example as Barrow's loss probably isn't as much as the home club!
Why? Because the clubs don't want to change & are afraid that regionalisation & semi-professionalism would be seen as a backward step. It is this attitude that needs changing if we are to reduce the number of football clubs that have financial problems.
Some level 7 clubs in the Southern League South Premier Division face up to 7 hours travelling for an away fixture (each way). The cost of that is enormous & may take place in midweek! I would hate to know what the total cost & hours are for Truro!
If a club at that level goes bust, it has the same effect on local business as the demise of Bury will.
That is why the whole structure of English football requires a radical overhaul! |
Have to agree Terry. Wish it wasn’t so but the return of Third Division North & South might well be beckoning. | |
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:48 - Aug 28 with 2078 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:45 - Aug 28 by Boston |
Have to agree Terry. Wish it wasn’t so but the return of Third Division North & South might well be beckoning. |
Really? What % of expenses for 3rd and 4th tier clubs are taken up by travel? Almost nothing these days I imagine.
Other leagues like the German lower leagues have gone the other way and nationalised their lower leagues with great success. | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 15:21 - Aug 28 with 2037 views | plasmahoop |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:28 - Aug 28 by terryb |
IMO we need everyone of our divisions, right down to the Ipswich League Division four.
However, we don't need five national professional leagues! Plus some clubs below that are also full time. What profit is there for Barrow to travel to Boreham Wood to play in front of a crowd of 400? Actually, that is a bad example as Barrow's loss probably isn't as much as the home club!
Why? Because the clubs don't want to change & are afraid that regionalisation & semi-professionalism would be seen as a backward step. It is this attitude that needs changing if we are to reduce the number of football clubs that have financial problems.
Some level 7 clubs in the Southern League South Premier Division face up to 7 hours travelling for an away fixture (each way). The cost of that is enormous & may take place in midweek! I would hate to know what the total cost & hours are for Truro!
If a club at that level goes bust, it has the same effect on local business as the demise of Bury will.
That is why the whole structure of English football requires a radical overhaul! |
Think you are absolutely spot on with this post. Sure the rules need changing on fit and proper persons, and the academy situation, but in reality league 2 should be semi professional. A few years ago there was the first 100k a year footballer in the conference (at Rushden and diamonds, now bust.)I know of someone who was getting 300 quid a week to play for Dorking, training once a week. I think the salaries are way too high in general when the clubs are all going bust and can't afford them. Should be capped higher up and have a greater number of semi professional teams | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 15:54 - Aug 28 with 1979 views | jonno |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 14:28 - Aug 28 by terryb |
IMO we need everyone of our divisions, right down to the Ipswich League Division four.
However, we don't need five national professional leagues! Plus some clubs below that are also full time. What profit is there for Barrow to travel to Boreham Wood to play in front of a crowd of 400? Actually, that is a bad example as Barrow's loss probably isn't as much as the home club!
Why? Because the clubs don't want to change & are afraid that regionalisation & semi-professionalism would be seen as a backward step. It is this attitude that needs changing if we are to reduce the number of football clubs that have financial problems.
Some level 7 clubs in the Southern League South Premier Division face up to 7 hours travelling for an away fixture (each way). The cost of that is enormous & may take place in midweek! I would hate to know what the total cost & hours are for Truro!
If a club at that level goes bust, it has the same effect on local business as the demise of Bury will.
That is why the whole structure of English football requires a radical overhaul! |
How is it then that these same clubs have been in existence for over a hundred years? What has changed to now make them uneconomic? |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 16:40 - Aug 28 with 1915 views | Northernr |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 15:54 - Aug 28 by jonno |
How is it then that these same clubs have been in existence for over a hundred years? What has changed to now make them uneconomic? |
1 - Money in football has just gone out of control. Remember when jack Walker was able to transform Blackburn from also ran into league champions spending about £30m? £30m buys you one player now, often not a very good player. Wages, transfer fees, costs, all of it has grown way above inflation. Championship players on £40k a week. The days of the local scrap iron monger being able to own and run the local football club are gone.
2 - EPPP has robbed them of a key income stream. Where once you could develop a local boy and sell him for even a few hundred thousand quid (big deal if you're Bury), now if any kid looks half decent at Bury at 13 Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton will just come and snaffle him and park him with the others and you'll get two bob for it. Clubs like Wycombe, who should be crying out for young talent to develop and sell, are closing academies altogether.
3 - Signing culture. Absolutely rabid. Encouraged and demanded by a combination of Sky Sports News and supporters who've grown up on Football Manager computer games. Your success is judged now as much by who you're signing, and how many signings you're making, as it is results on the pitch. Most of the "announce Ravel" mouth breathers on social media don't go to the fcking games. Look at the way Fulham fans were still creaming themselves over their January signings last season, when they were quite obviously doomed and just chucking good money after bad. The pressure, exacerbated by lack of youth academy, is to be signing. Always be signing. And it's expensive.
4 - Loan issues. Where once you could cover up two and three with a clutch of loans, now they're costing. The Accrington owner and Peterborough owner Tweet about this a lot - Premier League clubs, awash with money, asking Accrington and Peterborough to pay money to borrow their kids on loan. A loan that, let's not forget, will benefit the player's development. We've probably paid as much as we paid for Sheron, our club record fee less than 20 years ago, to borrow Hugill for nine months.
5 - Domination of the Premier League at the expense of all others. All the money coming into the game is concentrated at the very top. All the sponsorship you might want for your club. Supporters you might want to come and watch your League One club would rather sit at home and stream Man Utd v Palace illegally, drink six cheap supermarket lagers and monitor their "mental acca" than spend £25 and come and watch you.
6 - Big spenders filtering down. Parachute payments, massive TV money for finishing last in the Prem. You've now got Championship clubs spending £8m-£10m on players to try and get into the Prem. Newcastle, Villa, QPR, all spent eye watering sums in the second tier. It's skewing it, making it harder for clubs like Barnsley, Blackpool, Bradford and others who've all been in the Prem themselves relatively recently to stand a chance of getting back.
7 - Rules being ignored. It might be possible to get a lid on all of this, get clubs spending more sensibly, deflate the transfer market, sustainable futures for clubs if there was proper governance. Instead, the EFL actively encourages rule breaking/cheating/clever accounting from Derby, Birmingham, Villa and others.
8 - General socio-economic situation in the country. Everything is expensive, and it's about to get worse. |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 17:05 - Aug 28 with 1856 views | terryb |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 15:54 - Aug 28 by jonno |
How is it then that these same clubs have been in existence for over a hundred years? What has changed to now make them uneconomic? |
Apart from all of the points Northern has made, these clubs have hardly ever made a profit.
They have always been financed by their owners. The difference now is that a lot of owners are in it for their ego, whereas in the past the owners were from the local community & the club was in their blood. They were proud to be the owner/chairman & more than happy to finance the loss. The kudos they received locally more than compensated for the £'s spent.
Indeed, upto the abolution of maximum wage many a club owner "employed" players in their companies to increase the wages of the footballer. I spent 10 years working for one of those companies although that was after this practice had finished.
It is also the case that many a club in the past went out of existence due to financial reasons. Football league clubs include Thames Ironworks, Leeds City, Accrington Stanley, Gateshead, Newport County, Aldershot, Maidstone United among others. Rushden & Diamonds plus Hereford United fell shortly after relegation from the FL. | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 17:12 - Aug 28 with 1837 views | BostonR |
How long before the Sky money implodes? Sure there will be another taker but football will have a ceiling on its value.
Cannot wait for the Euro Super League so the so-called big clubs can feck-off and leave us well alone. |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 17:24 - Aug 28 with 1807 views | johnhoop |
Having read this morning that Man U are paying Alexis Sanchez 175k a week not to play for them as their part of his wages in the deal they’ve made with Inter Milan makes what’s happened to Bury feel even more sick than it did already. | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 17:46 - Aug 28 with 1758 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but I hope people realise that FFP (when adhered to) is a really good thing.
It may yet relegate us, but I’d rather be relegated than liquidated. |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 18:01 - Aug 28 with 1736 views | DavieQPR |
Down to Dale and the league. They allowed him to buy the club and obtain a £4m loan, repayable after 12 months ,at 10% interest. In his first year he paid himself £500k and his son £125k in consultancy fees. The Chief Executive of the FL, who had taken clubs into Administration 4 times, allowed a man who had overseen 43 administrations or liquidations of the 51 businesses he has owned, to pass the 'Fit and Proper Person test. Him and Harvey more than likely knew each other from the Courts. |  | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 18:06 - Aug 28 with 1730 views | Mistication92 |
Good article on 200%: http://twohundredpercent.net/buried/
I agree about FFP. It's not enforced properly and clubs need to be punished for going against the spirit of it, but in essence it's a good thing. It allows for spending on infrastructure that allows a club to grow naturally and if the support is there. Many clubs have improved their standing in the leagues by either investing in a new stadium or improving it; Swansea, Bristol City, Hull, Cardiff, Luton (in the future), Doncaster, Rotherham, Wimbledon (in the future).
It can be done, it's just takes a bit more time than spunking money on a couple of strikers. | | | |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 18:16 - Aug 28 with 1704 views | QPR_John |
| Bury FC and the EFL on 17:46 - Aug 28 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I know this is a unpopular opinion, but I hope people realise that FFP (when adhered to) is a really good thing.
It may yet relegate us, but I’d rather be relegated than liquidated. |
FFP allows a club to have a yearly debt of £13M. If it really was designed to protect clubs from excessive debt that figure should be zero or at least lower. As the FL have shown in our case even if the owners write off the debt FFP rules will still be broken. £13M allows the FL to pretend they are genuine when in reality they like the FA are in hock to the Premier League. We now know FFP will penalise you if you get into excessive debt but is quite happy for you to sell your ground. Derby County. We now know if excessive spending gets you enough points the penalty will be being demoted a few places. Birmingham City. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 18:17]
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| Bury FC and the EFL on 19:36 - Aug 28 with 1610 views | R_from_afar |
Five Live are debating this right now. I have always thought "Chappers" was a smug, mickey-taking tw@t but fair play to him, he just raised a point which has been rattling around my head: The media, and to a certain extent, football fans in general, are also partly responsible due to an obsession with the big clubs.
As an example, on a weekend morning, Talk Sport debate football but not only is the focus almost exclusively on the Prem, but it is nearly always on the big six. Haley's comet comes round more often than a discussion of, say, Burnley. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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