| England Thread 🏴 19:29 - Oct 17 with 258834 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
About time we had one I think? |  | | |  |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:21 - Jul 16 with 2094 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| England Thread 🏴 on 07:52 - Jul 16 by Paddyhoops |
Tuchel won’t last long . Henry Winter on the radio this morning going for his throat . Calls will only grow for his resignation.
Should have stayed in the front foot and probably would have got it over the line but even then Argentina could have got back in the game .
They have quality players and Messi did what Messi does . Goes missing and then explodes into life .
A lot more memories to cherish which is more than I can say but ultimately fell short . |
Everything about that defeat was the worst kind of capitulation imaginable, with Tuch doing the worst possible impression of Southgate, with a smidge of Paul Hart. Apparently we had 12% possession after taking the lead; even Ainsworth's possessionless-ball aimed for nearer 20%!
All this talk about how good the Argies were, totally ignores how easy we made it for them. Their CB were on yellows and we hardly bothered them. We allowed them to swap out defenders for strikers because we'd clearly decided not to pose any attacking threat, beyond desperate hoofing from deep inside our six-yard box!
When he took Gordon off for Konsa, with Kane and Jude blowing, did Tuch think the Argies would surrender with the sight of six English defenders and no midfield? I wonder now if he might lose/have lost the dressing room?
If we'd gone down by giving it a go and made the Argies really work for it, we'd have lived with it. But we wilted under the pressure of our own making. Again!! [Post edited 16 Jul 8:59]
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| England Thread 🏴 on 08:26 - Jul 16 with 2048 views | OakR |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:21 - Jul 16 by PlanetHonneywood |
Everything about that defeat was the worst kind of capitulation imaginable, with Tuch doing the worst possible impression of Southgate, with a smidge of Paul Hart. Apparently we had 12% possession after taking the lead; even Ainsworth's possessionless-ball aimed for nearer 20%!
All this talk about how good the Argies were, totally ignores how easy we made it for them. Their CB were on yellows and we hardly bothered them. We allowed them to swap out defenders for strikers because we'd clearly decided not to pose any attacking threat, beyond desperate hoofing from deep inside our six-yard box!
When he took Gordon off for Konsa, with Kane and Jude blowing, did Tuch think the Argies would surrender with the sight of six English defenders and no midfield? I wonder now if he might lose/have lost the dressing room?
If we'd gone down by giving it a go and made the Argies really work for it, we'd have lived with it. But we wilted under the pressure of our own making. Again!! [Post edited 16 Jul 8:59]
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100%.
I'd have had Rashford and Madueke (who I think has been poor) as both would be great on the counter and we were desperate for an outlet, maybe brought Mainoo on in midfield for Rice who was clearly shattered. We had no energy, and made it worse by making it impossible to get out tiring outselves ven more, and just saying have the ball for 30 minutes and see if you can score, you don't need to worry, we won't attack.
I almost wish we'd just been outplayed an lost 3-0 and gone fair enough they were better - this is so much worse as it felt like it was their for us. We might still of lost with different changes, they are a great side, but we just threw the chance away. Depressing. |  |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 08:33 - Jul 16 with 1990 views | RangersDave3 |
Alas, at 62, I think my chance of seeing England win a World Cup final has gone.
Cannot understand last nights match. We started well, but needed to go into shit house mode, rather than go into ‘lay on the beach’ mode. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:38 - Jul 16 with 1949 views | soops |
Lots of comparisons to Southgate and Paul Hart, very much spot on. Also made me think of Redknapp in the play off final where Clint Hill effectively subbed himself off to keep an outlet in Hoilett. Could’ve done with Clint next to Tuchel last night. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:39 - Jul 16 with 1933 views | Gloucs_R |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:33 - Jul 16 by RangersDave3 |
Alas, at 62, I think my chance of seeing England win a World Cup final has gone.
Cannot understand last nights match. We started well, but needed to go into shit house mode, rather than go into ‘lay on the beach’ mode. |
Show me the shit house players in this team...
Show me a Scholes, Butcher, Rooney....
I wanted someone to get in their faces last night |  |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 08:47 - Jul 16 with 1907 views | ted_hendrix |
| England Thread 🏴 on 08:38 - Jul 16 by soops |
Lots of comparisons to Southgate and Paul Hart, very much spot on. Also made me think of Redknapp in the play off final where Clint Hill effectively subbed himself off to keep an outlet in Hoilett. Could’ve done with Clint next to Tuchel last night. |
Tuchel’s back room staff last night were;
Anthony Barry (Assistant Coach)
Henrique Hilário (Goalkeeping Coach):
Nicolas Mayer (Performance Coach):
James Melbourne (Lead Analyst)
Justin Cochrane (Coach)
Stanley Unwin (Speech therapist) |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 08:49 - Jul 16 with 1893 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Really interesting reading the comments this morning and while Tuchel has to shoulder some of the blame there is a bigger question.
'Two different managers, Southgate and Tuchel, yet both went ultra defensive when leading. Why?'
England are simply incapable of retaining possession when under pressure with no CM able to dictate the tempo of the game. That CM of Rice and Anderson is merely a Lampard, Gerrard tribute act, neither of whom would get into the French, Argentine or Spanish teams.
This is nothing new and been the same problem for at least the past 40 years. Look what Spain did to France and 1-0 up, we can't keep possession so can't do it.
As we love to say on here: Keep changing the manager and nothing changes, it's not the manager. | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:03 - Jul 16 with 1824 views | ozexile |
Tuchel basically said that they wouldn't follow his instructions so ge threw players on to help them defend which is ridiculous IMO. However there is a common denominator in these 3 defeats and thats Kane continually dropping back and not giving us an outlet. He thinks he's helping the team but in reality he's hindering our shape.
I would have definitely hauled him for Watkins last night. Extra pace and someone who will give an outlet. | | | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:07 - Jul 16 with 1797 views | Stanisgod |
I cant believe that before the first goal we stood and watched Messi take EXACTLY the same corner FOUR times and still didn't put a man out on the recieving player to stop it, giving Messi a more dangerous angle to cross. |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:08 - Jul 16 with 1794 views | Phildo |
Seems to me he did not trust his players - which begs a lot of long term questions if he stays on |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:09 - Jul 16 with 1773 views | Gloucs_R |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:07 - Jul 16 by Stanisgod |
I cant believe that before the first goal we stood and watched Messi take EXACTLY the same corner FOUR times and still didn't put a man out on the recieving player to stop it, giving Messi a more dangerous angle to cross. |
I said that exact same thing last night. Stupidity | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:20 - Jul 16 with 1713 views | NorthantsHoop |
Listening to Tim Vickery South American football expert on 5 Live this morning, he said that England played right into the Argentinian playbook and their belief of pulling things out of the fire. Tuchel's decision to defend the lead and not having any outlets to stretch them and England going so deep just brought the Argies onto them and their quality shone through and they turned us over pretty easily. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:21 - Jul 16 with 1709 views | Metallica_Hoop |
I was so angry about the sitting back, it was obvious they would score 5 minutes before they did.
lose by trying to score more, I'm ok lose by f'kin sitting there really annoyed.
Having said that we were decent until we went 1-0 up. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:34 - Jul 16 with 1642 views | BAWHoops |
Don't think I've ever seen an England game like that where the manager proactively blew it all up.
We had them. Had the players to keep going as well.
Completely 100% on Tuchel that one. In what world do you decide to cede space to the actual Lionel Messi!
It was madness from the second Gordon scored |  |
| http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/ |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 09:41 - Jul 16 with 1589 views | BushRanger82 |
England handed that game to Argentina on a plate.
The exact opposite of what should have happened, once Gordon had put them in the lead, happened.
And England lost what was up to that point, a winnable game.
That's a shame, because this World Cup has been up for grabs from the start, and I think it's Spain's to lose now. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:53 - Jul 16 with 1517 views | daveB |
The worst thing is he identified this problem and spoke out about it, don't sit back don't be afraid. He said it against Croatia if we lose we do it playing our way but when it came to the crunch in 3 of the 4 knockout games he put on defender after defender and held onto leads rather than try and score again.
He was appointed for exactly that scenario last night, 1-0 up against a top team don't sit back and give the other team the initiative back.
Once he took Gordon off the game was done but then to double down and bring on 2 more defenders was criminal.
All that tosh about elite managers, Southgate did a far better job imo |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:55 - Jul 16 with 1501 views | daveB |
| England Thread 🏴 on 00:00 - Jul 16 by bosh67 |
Yes if you don't keep the ball and take the game to them, like Spain did to France then it's almost impossible to protect a lead against a team that has that kind of forward line. Mind you France were shite all game to be fair. [Post edited 16 Jul 0:02]
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don't even need to keep the ball, just have a counter attack threat | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:57 - Jul 16 with 1490 views | BostonR |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:53 - Jul 16 by daveB |
The worst thing is he identified this problem and spoke out about it, don't sit back don't be afraid. He said it against Croatia if we lose we do it playing our way but when it came to the crunch in 3 of the 4 knockout games he put on defender after defender and held onto leads rather than try and score again.
He was appointed for exactly that scenario last night, 1-0 up against a top team don't sit back and give the other team the initiative back.
Once he took Gordon off the game was done but then to double down and bring on 2 more defenders was criminal.
All that tosh about elite managers, Southgate did a far better job imo |
Can you imagine Klopp in the dugout last night? He’d of pushed England on the front foot after scoring to finish the game off. That’s an elite manager. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:59 - Jul 16 with 1475 views | daveB |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:03 - Jul 16 by ozexile |
Tuchel basically said that they wouldn't follow his instructions so ge threw players on to help them defend which is ridiculous IMO. However there is a common denominator in these 3 defeats and thats Kane continually dropping back and not giving us an outlet. He thinks he's helping the team but in reality he's hindering our shape.
I would have definitely hauled him for Watkins last night. Extra pace and someone who will give an outlet. |
Him dropping deep for the first hour was perfect though picking out the wide players, the defeat isn't on him, we took off the players he was passing to and building attacks through | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:00 - Jul 16 with 1472 views | eastside_r |
I’m coming to the inescapable conclusion that, like that faithful old pet that went to live on a farm - it’s never coming home. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:03 - Jul 16 with 1458 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:03 - Jul 16 by ozexile |
Tuchel basically said that they wouldn't follow his instructions so ge threw players on to help them defend which is ridiculous IMO. However there is a common denominator in these 3 defeats and thats Kane continually dropping back and not giving us an outlet. He thinks he's helping the team but in reality he's hindering our shape.
I would have definitely hauled him for Watkins last night. Extra pace and someone who will give an outlet. |
Of the many things being shouted at the TV last night, hooking Kane off for speedy legs was one of them.
We had no outlet at all, and no pace up top when we needed it. Imagine one or maybe two on with pace we could have lumped it up to. The Argies would have had to factor that in, but for the last 40 mins, they didn't have to worry about us attacking one bit. | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 with 1416 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:20 - Jul 16 by NorthantsHoop |
Listening to Tim Vickery South American football expert on 5 Live this morning, he said that England played right into the Argentinian playbook and their belief of pulling things out of the fire. Tuchel's decision to defend the lead and not having any outlets to stretch them and England going so deep just brought the Argies onto them and their quality shone through and they turned us over pretty easily. |
We're several pages into it on here and I'm sure, we've got many more discussions and exchanges among pals going on as well, that frankly, you don't need an expert to point out what we were all saying during the game itself. | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 with 1416 views | TK1 |
| England Thread 🏴 on 00:48 - Jul 16 by DejR_vu |
There’s no way TT said, “Right lads, we’re one up so from hereon give them the ball back every time we get it, sit on the 18 yard box, and let Messi do what he likes”
He gave them 17 minutes after the goal before he made a change and we had 12% possession in that time. He left it another 10 and they were all over us, hit the post. Not one of them thought it might be an idea to do something to stop the corner routine where Messi played it short and then received it straight back 20 yards from our closest defender. Absolutely brain dead. He had to do something. There’s nothing on the bench to wrestle back possession in midfield, he had to do something so he tried to shore it up at the back
That’s 100% on the players. Kane, Bellingham and Rice apart, they’re dross and don't have the mentality to win big games. Same every time. [Post edited 16 Jul 0:58]
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"There’s nothing on the bench to wrestle back possession in midfield..."
This is true. But who picked Mainoo and Henderson as the only back-up midfielders, neither of whom are remotely capable of the task? Who left the one English midfielder who keeps the ball like a metronome, Adam Wharton, who always passes forwards and quickly, who would've given the opposition a question to answer when Rice went off? As would have the legs of Scott.
Thomas Tuchel is a mercenary on £5m a year whose big idea is for England to play like a plucky, physical newly-promoted Championship team to the PL. Fast, strong, straight lines, nick a goal, shut up shop, throw on two centrebacks to hang off the crossbar (and miss the man in the middle). Ended the game with Dan Burn up top and Konsa failing to beat the first man on the wing. Laughable L2 sht.
If the three subs coming on when England go 1-0 are Cole Palmer to keep the ball and stress the two Argentine CBs who are on yellows ffs, Alexander Arnold and Wharton to hit him and keep the ball, England win that. England probably win it if Watkins and Saka came on to run at them.
But TT doesn't trust or like the technical English players. He likes specimens. The one technical player he grudgingly employs is Bellingham - and it's very grudging - he does so because of his physicality. He looks at the English players like mid-level PL players but this is a great generation of English players and I cannot believe how they set up, all the technical ability of European, PL winners he left at home for the like of Burn, Chalobah, Henderson.
In 2017, England won the U17 World Cup and the U20 World Cup. They won the U21 Euros twice on the bounce in 23 and 25. The FA spent over a decade building institutional competition winning know-how and culture, chiefly through Lee Carsley, but also Paul Simpson and Steve Cooper, with crown jewel youth players Foden and Palmer at the forefront of winning those titles.
And then the new FA chief exec, Mark Bullingham, a former marketing and commercial guy with zero football know-how, said - 'yeah, that was good, winning all those titles, but what we need is a proven elite club manager from Europe to win a world cup' (like they hadn't already tried that with Capello and Ericksen), and chucked all that carefully grown culture, along with many of the country's best young players, in the bin for an abrasive German sex-dungeon guy who's fallen out with every club he's worked at. And will now fall out with England.
Tuchel will hang in there, £5m is £5m. But Bullingham has to go. I genuinely believe England would have got as far with Lee Carsley, but the football would have been better. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:12 - Jul 16 with 1400 views | eastside_r |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:07 - Jul 16 by Stanisgod |
I cant believe that before the first goal we stood and watched Messi take EXACTLY the same corner FOUR times and still didn't put a man out on the recieving player to stop it, giving Messi a more dangerous angle to cross. |
This, this and THIS again. | | | |
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