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Yeah good listen. I thought interesting to hear that the coaching isn’t really that different from club to club. There’s no real magic or new ideas involved. They all do the same things. Which makes the point they were also making about “leadership” even more important.
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Latest WLS podcast on 08:56 - Mar 13 with 2319 views
I thought it was really interesting, and both Dave and Kevin were super insightful about what a manager does.
Kevin explaining that all training at all clubs is basically the same, there's no innovation possible really. Asking his brother Joe when he was Jackett's assistant what training they did: "Football training!" Love that.
So then Dave's long bit about how good management is about personality painted a whole world between the lines. I've been thinking about it ever since.
Kevin saying that he was a youth coach at QPR when Warnock was here and he barely came to training, players rarely saw him - but he earned his money in the half hour before the game and at half time. That's management. Coaches take care of the rest.
I guess it's a bit like having Adel in your team: you need Derry, Hill, Helgusson, Korkss to run the team, which allows you to have Adel to weave his magic. QPR need that figurehead manager with a big personality and top man-management skills, with hard-working coaches.
Do we have that? I reckon we have the reverse. That's what the pod suggest. Definitely my favourite football pod because it always makes me think.
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Latest WLS podcast on 09:23 - Mar 13 with 2196 views
Some managers are very active on the training field - I've heard that Warburton was, for instance. Jago and Sexton certainly were. I'd imagine Don Howe...
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
I thought it was really interesting, and both Dave and Kevin were super insightful about what a manager does.
Kevin explaining that all training at all clubs is basically the same, there's no innovation possible really. Asking his brother Joe when he was Jackett's assistant what training they did: "Football training!" Love that.
So then Dave's long bit about how good management is about personality painted a whole world between the lines. I've been thinking about it ever since.
Kevin saying that he was a youth coach at QPR when Warnock was here and he barely came to training, players rarely saw him - but he earned his money in the half hour before the game and at half time. That's management. Coaches take care of the rest.
I guess it's a bit like having Adel in your team: you need Derry, Hill, Helgusson, Korkss to run the team, which allows you to have Adel to weave his magic. QPR need that figurehead manager with a big personality and top man-management skills, with hard-working coaches.
Do we have that? I reckon we have the reverse. That's what the pod suggest. Definitely my favourite football pod because it always makes me think.
A figurehead manager is definitely not part of the operating model, far too threatening to Nourry and the performance battalion, sadly
I get the idea of a model per se ,in that if it’s done well it can be sustaining and not subject to short term shocks (coaches moving on, loss of your favourite players ) but we seem to have gone dar too far the other way.
I’m with Kev/Dave on this one
2
Latest WLS podcast on 09:38 - Mar 13 with 2095 views
Latest WLS podcast on 09:23 - Mar 13 by BrianMcCarthy
Some managers are very active on the training field - I've heard that Warburton was, for instance. Jago and Sexton certainly were. I'd imagine Don Howe...
I think Gallens point wasn’t really whether they are active in training, more that the drills are the same.
0
Latest WLS podcast on 09:43 - Mar 13 with 2075 views
Latest WLS podcast on 09:23 - Mar 13 by BrianMcCarthy
Some managers are very active on the training field - I've heard that Warburton was, for instance. Jago and Sexton certainly were. I'd imagine Don Howe...
I'm sure they were: Jago and Sexton would have had probably an assistant, a trainer and a physio. All hands to the pump! No set piece coaches and performance experts then.
I wonder how different the drills Warburton/Eustace put on were compared to, say Holloway/Bircham or McClaren/Eustace...probably the same, right?
But: Jago, Sexton, Warburton, Holloway, Francis, Venables...big personalities, like Warnock. Some of those also incredible man managers at times.
Dave Mc's banged that 'big personality managers succeed at QPR' drum for decades and it's hard to disagree with.
Interesting. Reminds me of when Mark Hughes was challenged on how we were training to defend corners and he said something like "well to be honest we assumed they already knew how to do that"...
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Latest WLS podcast on 10:01 - Mar 13 with 1939 views
Latest WLS podcast on 09:38 - Mar 13 by JamesB1979
I think Gallens point wasn’t really whether they are active in training, more that the drills are the same.
I'd imagine Gallen has a point with most managers.
Dave Mc's point that Mourinho, Guardiola etc haven't achieved what they have by coaching but by leadership was the interesting point, though.
I think that's a bit simplistic, and they're possibly poor examples. Clearly a good manager has to be good at leadership, but many are excellent at coaching as well. Mourinho and Guardiola have very distinctive tactical beliefs and both are renowned for their original drills and coaching styles.
Similarly, Jago, Sexton and Howe - same. The reports on Warburton were that he personally oversaw endless repititions of certain passing patterns e.g. Eze's goal at Stoke owed a lot to a training ground move from Lumley out.
Stéphan changed our entire tactical style post-Coventry and that would surely have required on-field coaching as much as leadership, and - most likely - very good on-field coaching to do such a good job in such a short space of time.
Others, like Brian Clough, left coaching and tactics to others. He might have been a better example.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Interesting. Reminds me of when Mark Hughes was challenged on how we were training to defend corners and he said something like "well to be honest we assumed they already knew how to do that"...
There's that story Ray Houghton tells about being signed by Liverpool on Thursday, then put straight in the team on Saturday. Just before he goes out, panicked, he asked Ronnie Moran what he should for set-pieces. Moran replied, "You work it out, that's why we've spent all that money on you!"
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Latest WLS podcast on 10:07 - Mar 13 with 1855 views
Thing is with those figurehead type managers who left coaching to others but were the leader, was in those days they also built the squad they wanted, and the coaching staff they wanted, and could therefore always be judged by the ultimate result.
This current idea that we have that we have a Head Coach who we'll judge for the performances and results, but he's not allowed to sign any players, he's not allowed to sign most of the coaches other than his assistant, so when it all goes to sh*t we'll fire him and allow everyone else to carry on as they were, is absolutely mental.
3
Latest WLS podcast on 10:12 - Mar 13 with 1853 views
On the training point, Gallen's insight on another of their podcast was interesting. He said by this point in the season you're not really training at all. Everybody's busted up, playing on injections, carrying injuries. Your training at this stage is basically keeping things ticking over, set pieces etc. You shouldn't be doing mega serious training and fitness work at this point in the year, you do all that stuff in pre-season which is why it's so important.
We've publicly said that we do the opposite. Start undercooked and go for a slow burn approach to build up to now.
9
Latest WLS podcast on 10:17 - Mar 13 with 1809 views
On the training point, Gallen's insight on another of their podcast was interesting. He said by this point in the season you're not really training at all. Everybody's busted up, playing on injections, carrying injuries. Your training at this stage is basically keeping things ticking over, set pieces etc. You shouldn't be doing mega serious training and fitness work at this point in the year, you do all that stuff in pre-season which is why it's so important.
We've publicly said that we do the opposite. Start undercooked and go for a slow burn approach to build up to now.
Competitive advantage.
3
Latest WLS podcast on 10:23 - Mar 13 with 1791 views
Thing is with those figurehead type managers who left coaching to others but were the leader, was in those days they also built the squad they wanted, and the coaching staff they wanted, and could therefore always be judged by the ultimate result.
This current idea that we have that we have a Head Coach who we'll judge for the performances and results, but he's not allowed to sign any players, he's not allowed to sign most of the coaches other than his assistant, so when it all goes to sh*t we'll fire him and allow everyone else to carry on as they were, is absolutely mental.
I think it could work if the DOF/Sporting Director is exactly that: an older, graduated manager - someone steeped in football management or coaching who oversees it and who a younger head coach leans on. So, a Warburton or S Gallen type, people who've been around players and teams a long time. Though, at Millwall, Gallen works seemingly well with a very experienced and gnarly old manager used to building his own squad so...
But it probably doesn't work with a 27 year old guy in his first job at a football club, who is also involved with exploring whether the pitch can be rotated 90 degrees and sitting in community meetings with the local authority, negotiating for players in Norway with one hand, the cheapest h/t pies while the first team squad falls to bits around him...
1
Latest WLS podcast on 10:24 - Mar 13 with 1785 views
On the training point, Gallen's insight on another of their podcast was interesting. He said by this point in the season you're not really training at all. Everybody's busted up, playing on injections, carrying injuries. Your training at this stage is basically keeping things ticking over, set pieces etc. You shouldn't be doing mega serious training and fitness work at this point in the year, you do all that stuff in pre-season which is why it's so important.
We've publicly said that we do the opposite. Start undercooked and go for a slow burn approach to build up to now.
Quite - there's a saying in horse racing, often repeated at Cheltenham and in lots of other sports I guess, that "you can't win the race at the start, but you can lose it".
1
Latest WLS podcast on 10:44 - Mar 13 with 1707 views
Yeah was very interesting this week and essentially made the point that there aren't enough football people running things.
Shiny young players with great stats on FotMob look good, but you need a football person overseeing things to turn round and say that Sam Field can't be loaned out because Varane is injured, Madsen's running on fumes and chucking Morgan in and expecting consistent results is a bad idea. Loan out Morgan, keep Field and if that means you can't do the Ronnie Edwards deal then don't do it because the squad becomes unbalanced, you've got enough to cover CB anyway.
I thought the part about having a core group was good as well and totally agree on their Kone assessment. Perhaps the sale of Frey has been overlooked as well. Was obviously popular around the place and maybe him going has led to standards slipping etc
http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/
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Latest WLS podcast on 11:34 - Mar 13 with 1517 views
What I found interesting was that Dave mentioned that it "wasn't the right time", to talk about the leadership of the club, at the start of the pod.
He is acutely aware of what is going on, but if he talks about it openly, he will just get blackballed by Nourry.
I know for a fact that the club (Nourry) have banned some journalists from talking to players already, so it will be interesting if Dave ever follows up on this.
1
Latest WLS podcast on 12:13 - Mar 13 with 1373 views
I too found it an unusually interesting podcast. On the 'training is the same' point, didn't Warburton spend a year visiting top clubs around the world to study their training regimes? I believe other managers have done this tool. If all training is basically the same, why would they do that?
1
Latest WLS podcast on 12:54 - Mar 13 with 1201 views
I suspect watching other managers training sessions and preparation is not so much about the drills but how good coaches communicate their ideas and whether their ideas are executed well on the football pitch. How the coach explains things, how he or she gets 'buy in' will also depend on how much the players trust the information and the person in charge. I suspect observing the culture the coach creates and how he engages with the players is the real learning rather than what type of football skills, tactics they are being carried out. I have met really clever people with great ideas that go nowhere because the audience cannot make head nor tail of the information. Normally a combination of an inability to communicate the idea well and poor people skills. Equally I have known people who are able to spot good ideas, understand them and communicate them amazingly well.
1
Latest WLS podcast on 13:22 - Mar 13 with 1123 views
Latest WLS podcast on 10:01 - Mar 13 by BrianMcCarthy
I'd imagine Gallen has a point with most managers.
Dave Mc's point that Mourinho, Guardiola etc haven't achieved what they have by coaching but by leadership was the interesting point, though.
I think that's a bit simplistic, and they're possibly poor examples. Clearly a good manager has to be good at leadership, but many are excellent at coaching as well. Mourinho and Guardiola have very distinctive tactical beliefs and both are renowned for their original drills and coaching styles.
Similarly, Jago, Sexton and Howe - same. The reports on Warburton were that he personally oversaw endless repititions of certain passing patterns e.g. Eze's goal at Stoke owed a lot to a training ground move from Lumley out.
Stéphan changed our entire tactical style post-Coventry and that would surely have required on-field coaching as much as leadership, and - most likely - very good on-field coaching to do such a good job in such a short space of time.
Others, like Brian Clough, left coaching and tactics to others. He might have been a better example.
Great points Brian.
Mentioned on another thread but from what Dunne was saying it seems they're struggling to find/adapt another way for playing without Madsen. So Stephan and the coaches are grappling with that, but it sounds like the message for whatever that new system is, isn't getting through to all the players. Hence more of a communication issue.
As an aside, Stephan might be a nice guy, gets on well with the players, but is he actually a leader? Or are those leadership skills neutered by him just being a head coach and being dictated to by Nourry? In the eyes of the players potentially that undermines his authority and hence we see the slop served up in the first half at Birmingham.
Let's see if any of that has been improved on tomorrow....
Latest WLS podcast on 09:23 - Mar 13 by BrianMcCarthy
Some managers are very active on the training field - I've heard that Warburton was, for instance. Jago and Sexton certainly were. I'd imagine Don Howe...
Plus Terry Venables… he was also a very innovative coach, interviews with players of the time rave about his methods. Half the team at Palace were happy to follow him over to Rangers.
Of course players may need an extra motivational push from time to time, but personally I do think that there is a lot to be said for good coaching, whether that comes directly from the manager. ( probably old school these days) or from the coaching staff they appoint.
First point often being make yourself a hard team to beat & move on from there…
[Post edited 13 Mar 13:50]
2
Latest WLS podcast on 13:55 - Mar 13 with 1006 views
I suspect watching other managers training sessions and preparation is not so much about the drills but how good coaches communicate their ideas and whether their ideas are executed well on the football pitch. How the coach explains things, how he or she gets 'buy in' will also depend on how much the players trust the information and the person in charge. I suspect observing the culture the coach creates and how he engages with the players is the real learning rather than what type of football skills, tactics they are being carried out. I have met really clever people with great ideas that go nowhere because the audience cannot make head nor tail of the information. Normally a combination of an inability to communicate the idea well and poor people skills. Equally I have known people who are able to spot good ideas, understand them and communicate them amazingly well.
Some good points here. I have had a small amount of exposure to training at a couple of clubs I did placements at for a degree I did recently.
I think it can be broken down fairly easily, but is always made more complicated than it ever needs to be, usually by modern day know-all social media 'pundits'.
1) Coach has tactical belief system he wants to implement, pre-season and early season you are working on the principles of that and small variations of your chosen system.
2) As someone above mentioned, once you get to a certain point of the season, everyone should have an understanding of what you are trying to do. Those that don't usually get frozen out or ride the bench. At this point you are just ticking over your fitness, preparing properly, being professional, stretching etc.
3) When clubs do have short turnarounds, clubs will generally pick out one defensive drill that they feel they need to work on to negate the next oppo and one attacking threat (i.e.; every man and their dog planning drills to exploit QPRs left side).
*I know I have essentially repeated a lot of what's been said above, but bare with me.
So in those 6 weeks of pre season and the first 4 weeks of the season, the coach has to be good at passing his idea's on, as OldChap points out a lot better than I am right now.
Who would have thought pre-season was so key. The other thing I noticed was we are in a battle of era's. The old school should still work (pre-season = Build fitness) but we are now in this buzzword era, data nerds will say, pre-season = Optimise performance.
Personally, I think data is just another in for companies to sell their services within the massive industry of football. It can tell you whatever you want it to, based on who you might be selling to. It's heavily flawed.
Bit of a tangent there on those last two paragraphs, but feeding back to QPR. What happened last pre season and first few weeks of the season?
1) Nourry told us in January at the fans meeting that the club were caught off guard how JS was running pre-season and how early they had the balls out. He also said it's something that will look at for next season.
*This tells you that communication at the club was poor. How is that something that can catch you off guard?
2) Pre-season was dire, including a 6-0 dogging by Castellon. Start of the season was dire, JS had to change the system and rip it up, 4 games into the season.
*So did he rip up the club model and go his own way? Or did he just struggle to communicate his ideas? Or both?
Finally, my opinion is, that its obvious from this stuff why man-managers have always kept it simple. Because it's a simple game made complicated nerds.
[Post edited 13 Mar 13:56]
4
Latest WLS podcast on 15:47 - Mar 13 with 819 views
Great Pod really interesting thoughts on the manager clearly he is no Warnock given how we perform first 10 minutes of each half been thinking this for some time before this bad run we just don’t start games well and ditto the second half. This has to be on the Manager. Is he getting everything out of the players he has ? Clearly not . But the players have responsibility for their effort and overall performance and regardless of the Manager they appear not to have any personal pride in their performance. Hope I am wrong but I can’t see us getting anything out of next 2 games and if we lose both can see the Manager going. As was said on the Pod this is where the Manager has to prove his worth and the next 2 games for me is a test he has to pass or he has to go.
1
Latest WLS podcast on 17:26 - Mar 13 with 637 views
I think all the pods have been really interesting this week . Perhaps because fans are frustrated and angry . But I thought WLS, W12, Hoops & Dreams, Open all R’s and Hoopsa (yep, I spend hours commuting everyday ) all actually gave the club, the manager and the players both barrels this week (as much is acceptable of course) and rightly so .
The team turns out guff like that , then we all have every right to do so . Interesting from Kev on training etc. In my opinion there is often small percentages between success and failure and teams might, for the most part do a lot of similar training drills , but it’s the slight tweaks to some of those formulas that can make the difference . A slight change or a different face once in a while just so things don’t get stale (Francis used to get Dave Sexton in occasionally to take a mornings session for example ).
I’ve been banging on about the pre match warm up a lot so apologies, but why don’t they tweak this so it’s slightly different once in a while ?
I do think something bigger has happened behind the scenes,in recent weeks . The club leaks like a sieve so I’m surprised rumours aren’t a wash. So maybe I’m wrong , but the eye test tells you all is not well and I think Dave Mc rightly called out JS on WLS.
He looks, sounds and performs in recent weeks like he’d jacked it in.
It’s no wonder that’s how the players are performing.
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