| Greg Clarke gone on 11:37 - Nov 11 with 1516 views | Esox_Lucius |
I have a friend in Manchester who is a black secondary school teacher and around 10 years ago she told me she would rather be called a N ****r than coloured or a darky, and when I pushed her on it she said it was the same for other black people she knew. She also grew up in Ipswich with Jason Dozzell as a close friend and told me that he was subjected to a lot of casual racism as a youngster playing football. It isn't political correctness to expect people to treat others as they would wish to be treated themselves. I was subjected to a lot of racist remarks as a kid due to my parents being Irish and it was very unpleasant and affected me deeply for many years. It is possibly why I call it out when I see it even if it makes me unpopular with people. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 11:47 - Nov 11 with 1469 views | kensalriser |
| Greg Clarke gone on 09:32 - Nov 11 by gazza1 |
I thought this was a Clarke thread not a Gordon Taylor one.......
Short and sweet from me.......politically correctness has a lot to answer for - Clarke hasn't really done fook all wrong imho. |
Since you feel that objecting to being insulted is political correctness, I'm sure you won't mind me ignoring political correctness and calling you a total fcking moron. |  |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 11:49 - Nov 11 with 1468 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
This is all very nice, and I agree with it all, but there have been some horrendous comments tolerated on this forum so it feels a bit mealy mouthed to me. Appreciate that monitoring the forum 24/7 isn't possible but I wouldn't feel welcome here if I was BAME, LGBT, or female. [Post edited 11 Nov 2020 12:03]
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| Greg Clarke gone on 12:07 - Nov 11 with 1413 views | LazyFan |
Lineker said he would not take the role on. This then reminded me that I may inaccurately remember that Sir Les went for a job in the FA and did not get it.
I worry now they go for him, he's proven, he's talented, he does not say stupid things, can play the corporate game and therefore is highly professional. |  |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 12:14 - Nov 11 with 1401 views | nix |
| Greg Clarke gone on 09:38 - Nov 11 by dannyblue |
Thanks for engaging seriously.
I don't take heterosexuality for granted. It has many colours. As many flavours as there are people. Monogamy, promiscuity, dominant, submissive, loving, angry, preferring older or younger, larger or skinnier, lots of sex, little sex, quickies and long drawn out, public, group etc. And preferences change over time.
And while these drives may be long standing, I don't think people are born with them necessarily. They're shaped by experience, psychology, opportunity and fantasy and, yes, to a certain extent, choice - since people might explore one thing more and shy away from something else.
Among my gay friends, one remembers a specific occasion in his early twenties when he realised he fancied a man, liked it, and explored further. Another was always gay as long as he can remember. Another basically just fúcks anything he can get his hands on male or female.
The old nature vs nurture thing, with an added element of agency. And as ever I think the real answer is not one or the other.
I still think at root the antipathy to the idea that being gay can be a choice - no matter how well intentioned - stems from a feeling that it's not fine / it's 'other', and so it needs the excuse of being born that way to make it acceptable. As you say if it's a choice that gives room for harmful conversion therapies and ideas of sinfulness - so this idea of it not being a choice still seems to be a defence against nasty bigots.
But it doesn't need an excuse! Love is a spectrum! Sex positive! Just make love however you want (consenting adult disclaimer)!
Back to topic, I very much doubt Mr. Clarke was thinking along these lines. |
You make some interesting points. But even within the preferences that you list within heterosexuality, they are all subcategories, not moving between categories. And even then, a lot of people don't move between them. For instance, I could never find someone 20-30 years older than me remotely attractive. That's not a choice. It may have its roots in socialisation, psychology or biology but it isn't agency in the sense that I couldn't persuade myself to feel differently. And yet some people do and consistently do over time find older people irresistible. If I were told that it was shameful to only be attractive to similar aged people. If I couldn't have a family. If I wasn't allowed to adopt. If in some countries I would be criminalised, I'm not sure I could still change my orientation.
I agree it's probably a spectrum. And some people are bisexual, like one of your gay friends but may have a preference, one might be fully bisexual like another of your friends, and the other might be wholly homosexual. Personally I wouldn't want to make it more difficult for them by saying it's a choice, like preferring peas to cabbage. Or ask them to justify why they choose to have their particular preferences, any more than I would want to justify mine. But thanks for engaging. |  | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 12:32 - Nov 11 with 1364 views | RangersDave |
Having been brought up in High Wycombe as a youngling, i was bullied for being fat, bullied by black people and kids for being white, then white and fat etc
My parents moved in 79 to another county where, we found out, rather painfully for me, that the education system was too far ahead of Buckinghamshires for me to catch up in the year i had left before my O levels, so i was bullied by all and sundry for being thick!
Hell, in Buckinghamshire i was even punched twice in the face by a teacher during a football match (sports / excercise period) for being fat.
Everyone laughed, no one came to my aid in any of this......... why am i telling you all this?
Easy and non convoluted answer...... i dont give a flying fcuk what race, colour, creed, or sexuality or size you are........ i see you as a person, and we either hit it off or we dont, and if we dont, then thats life, move along, nothing to see here. |  |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 12:41 - Nov 11 with 1345 views | dannyblue |
| Greg Clarke gone on 12:14 - Nov 11 by nix |
You make some interesting points. But even within the preferences that you list within heterosexuality, they are all subcategories, not moving between categories. And even then, a lot of people don't move between them. For instance, I could never find someone 20-30 years older than me remotely attractive. That's not a choice. It may have its roots in socialisation, psychology or biology but it isn't agency in the sense that I couldn't persuade myself to feel differently. And yet some people do and consistently do over time find older people irresistible. If I were told that it was shameful to only be attractive to similar aged people. If I couldn't have a family. If I wasn't allowed to adopt. If in some countries I would be criminalised, I'm not sure I could still change my orientation.
I agree it's probably a spectrum. And some people are bisexual, like one of your gay friends but may have a preference, one might be fully bisexual like another of your friends, and the other might be wholly homosexual. Personally I wouldn't want to make it more difficult for them by saying it's a choice, like preferring peas to cabbage. Or ask them to justify why they choose to have their particular preferences, any more than I would want to justify mine. But thanks for engaging. |
I don't see why it makes it more difficult for someone gay to say it could be a choice (note: I'm not saying that it is necessarily a choice, just that it could be). And I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to justify it. Crack on (or not, as the case may be).
More significantly, I still don't get why it's offensive to say it's a choice. It might be wrong to say its a choice, or it might not be accurate in most cases, but is it offensive?
Your same-aged attraction dystopia example relies on shame and criminalisation. I think if we take those negative assumptions out of the discussion, we remove the need to insist that someone was 'born this way'. In other words, insistence on a 'born this way' argument and offence at a 'chose this way' argument seems to me to only be necessary if one thinks there's something about 'this way' that needs to be excused. If it's all fine and dandy it could be innate or chosen and nobody would need to get het up about the difference. Some people are born blonde, others choose to become blonde.
Still, sorry, this is all a bit like discussing how many angels can dance on a pinhead. |  | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 12:45 - Nov 11 with 1326 views | toboboly |
Now if only football reacted so quickly when players, owners, staff or sponsors were so poor at communicating their thoughts. |  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 13:03 - Nov 11 with 1287 views | The_Beast1976 |
Playing football in the mid 90s, our left-back of afro caribbean descent was known as "Black Paul", and our white central midfielder who talked like a jamaican yardie was known as "Black Tom". Both were sound fellas and neither of them gave a fcuk. In fact we all had nicknames, many of which to some extent were a bit of a pisstake, and nobody gave a fcuk. Was that correct and proper? Who knows. All I can say is it was all non-malicious and good intentioned camaraderie, and we all got on like a house on fire both on and off the pitch and they were great times. It's all about context I guess, but would it happen today? Probably not. [Post edited 11 Nov 2020 13:10]
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| Greg Clarke gone on 13:12 - Nov 11 with 1266 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Greg Clarke gone on 19:23 - Nov 10 by stainrods_elbow |
Admittedly, the comment about gay people making a 'life choice' doesn't play that well in 2020 (though it's a point of view, albeit not one I and probably most of us would necessarily agree with), but resigning for the sake of an at worst outdated reference to about 'coloured' players and having the temerity to claim that the different career choices of Asians and Afro-Caribbeans affects their representation is a political joke in my opinion. I haven't followed Clarke's career closely and hold no specific brief for men of his ilk, but I suspect he is guilty of no more than his critics in the final analysis - i.e. he's a product of his time/upbringing (the 1950s, iI guess) just like his career-cancellers are of theirs (though they're too programmed to see it, of course).
Some of these people need to cultivate a soupcon of self-criticality, stop obsessing about equalities of outcome and get over their virtue-signalling. Some of the nastiest and meanest people I've met in my life have been those people who are most wearyingly invested in various facets of wokeness, which is not an accident in my book. The irony is that the stated concern is all about these supposed miscreants' 'language', when it's their judges' policing of language (and thinking) that is the real Orwellian issue. Give me a break!
I'm off to watch a Jordan Peterson lecture for a bit of sanity. |
'product of his time, upbringing'
People need to stop using this as an excuse. It's not so bad if you're talking about my old dad, who retired, spent more time with his racist brother-in-law and began to hold some questionable views and become more entrenched in what he might term 'traditional' values.
But if you're a public figure, leading an organisation that encompasses an enormously diverse group of people of all ages, sexes and ethnicities, no. Sorry. Educate yourself. Keep educating yourself. Don't stop. Question yourself.
I remember an episode of Scrubs (bear with me), in which Dick van Dyke guested as an old doctor and chum of the chief. He keot doing treatments the 'old school' way, but the old school way had been surpassed and was wrong. In the end, the chief had to get rid of him and made the point that while he was the same age, he still had to go to conferences, still had to study, still had to learn new techniques, could not afford to pretend that he knew it all, despite being a leader of his field and the leader of a hospital.
A tortured analogy, but it stands here. Les Ferdinand has been saying for years how out of tpuch these people are - this proves it. Being old is not an excuse. Just like the Lord saying his 'The Indian' tweet was not racist. Of course it was racist. Stop using your age has some kind of barrier or excuse when you fk up. |  |
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| Greg Clarke gone on 13:22 - Nov 11 with 1233 views | PinnerPaul |
| Greg Clarke gone on 18:48 - Nov 10 by Northernr |
Look I didn't want to do this but...
- The salary, £2.2m a year, £44k a week, including a bonus of £700k+ for some reason, and a car allowance of £50k because you can’t possibly buy your own car on that salary. The best paid union boss anywhere in the history of the world.
- The fact that he’s in that ridiculously well-paid position while flouting not only the PFA rules, but also the trade union act, which state elections for the position, or nominees for it sought, every five years. He’s been in position for 40.
- Finally, under heavy duress and media pressure, commissioned a root and branch review of his shambolic organisation in 2018. As a result, said in March 2019 that he would step down along with the whole management board. Here we are end of 2020, and he’s still there.
- Jeff Astle died from/with dementia in 2002, a coroner eventually found it to be an industrial disease because of heading heavy footballs. This is in the news again this week with other cases. PFA did fck all about it for 15 years after Astle’s death, Taylor once told Astle’s widow “my mum’s got dementia and she’s never headed a ball in her life”. When a belated 22 month study did find a link they sent a glossy brochure out to members saying the PFA had been committed to this for 15 years. The PFA has currently only spent £125k from its vast resources on Alzheimer’s research and causes. I say again, the prck is on £2.2m a year, and the PFA has a bank balance north of £50m.
- During the phone hacking scandal, something which we now know affected many of his members, he accepted a £700k personal payment from News International to say nothing about it, or how his own phone had been tapped. News International lawyers later told a Commons Select Committee he told them he wanted to be “vindicated… or made rich”.
- The PFA has a painting in its headquarters worth £2m. It pays for Taylor to have a box at Manchester City worth £70,000 a season. It contributes just £125,000 to the Kick It Out racism organisation.
- Channel 4’s Dispatches revealed in 1997 that Barry Bennell had been habitually and ritualistically molesting young boys at Crewe and other clubs. Dispatches took its findings to Taylor and the PFA, requesting comment and action. They said they found "no willingness to investigate". The PFA did and said nothing about it until Ashley Westwood took it to the Guardian two decades later.
- Gambling, another highly controversial element of our sport regarding sponsorship, and an addiction that again afflicts many current and former footballers. Taylor’s leadership on this consists of £4m- worth of bets placed on the outcome of matches, and a debt to a bookmaker north of £100,000.
- Compared the search for justice of Ched Evans — initially convicted of rape, acquitted on appeal, but still somebody who quietly slid into the back of a girl his mate had picked up in a kebab shop while his brother, a school teacher, filmed from the Travelodge window on his phone — with that of the Hillsborough families. Had to apologise for that one, as you would. A very sincere and heartfelt apology it was too. Oh no, wait: "The point I was making was not to embarrass or upset anybody at all among the Liverpool supporters. I’m very much an admirer of them and they know that. That was never my intention but it was the fact that how things at one time can be perceived one way but come out very differently with the passage of time. If people feel that way about what I said, I can only apologise.”
- Banned Rachel Anderson, at the time the country’s only female football agent, from the PFA annual dinner because it was “blokes only”. When called on it refused to back down, saying there was no room, and sex discrimination laws didn't apply to private events. When fought on it fought back, all the way to the High Court, where, of course, Anderson won. Mysoginistic wnkr.
- In the wake of the John Terry and Luis Suarez race cases, hired Reginald D Hunter to do the stand up at that same PFA dinner again. Sent Clarke Carlisle out to apologise for all the subsequent “nggr” references.
- When journeyman footballer and law student Ben Purkiss became PFA chairman and started asking long overdue questions about all of the above, Taylor and the organisation instructed lawyers because he’d taken up a non-contract playing deal at Walsall, which technically precluded him from being chairman. Purkiss won that one, because non-contract players had been chairmen and members before, and the PFA knew his situation when he was appointed. Still, you lose some, you lose some.
- Breached charity commission rules by allowing Paul Elliott to remain a trustee after an IVA.
- After further digging the Charity Commission discovered the PFA’s charitable arm was declaring staff costs of £3.8m a year, but employing a staff of 0 (zero). Investigation launched.
- PFA was criticised by scores of former players for handing out “ruinous financial advice” via its financial arm which left them destitute in retirement.
- A letter was signed by 200 current and former professionals demanding Taylor resigned. Perhaps most damningly of all, Harry Redknapp and Sam Allardyce were first out in public support.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
OK, but apart from that...................................
Brilliant piece | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:24 - Nov 11 with 1229 views | PinnerPaul |
| Greg Clarke gone on 19:32 - Nov 10 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I know I’m in for hiding, but here goes!
While there is some unacceptable examples of greed, corruption, and incompetence that I can’t defend there I would suggest that the majority of those issues were badly handled but ultimately not caused by the PFA?
You suggested that the PFA was running and ruining football. I’d say when they are doing wrong it’s a reaction to other people’s wrongness (Bennell / racism / head trauma related dementia / footballer destitution etc) but not the cause. They have done a lot of hard work for footballers further down the league at times, and historically ended the poverty wages for footballers. I would say the PFA has been a net good for football but happy to say it needs reform and more democratic and accountable outlook.
As for Taylor’s wages, they are obscene, but ultimately paid voluntarily out of footballer’s pockets. Can’t say the same for Sky, the EFL, or the Premier League. I would like to see Rick Parry’s salary. [Post edited 10 Nov 2020 19:43]
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I didn't know Sky was compulsory? | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:27 - Nov 11 with 1217 views | Toast_R |
It is difficult to keep up with what terminology is acceptable and what's not acceptable. I mean - when does the transition of non offensive to offensive actually occur and who decides it and what triggers the apparent expiry date? It's a tight rope now and if you slip up your completely f*cked. I'd hate to work in HR. |  | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:31 - Nov 11 with 1196 views | dannyblue |
Oh! Karl Henry's weighed in:
For me 'the left' is as much of a warning sign as 'virtue signalling' or 'SJW' or, for that matter, 'coloured'. | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:37 - Nov 11 with 1183 views | doogi10 |
was you called white greg then ,the point his you drew attention ti his race | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:39 - Nov 11 with 1177 views | doogi10 |
he was sexist,racist and homphobic to a goverment commitee he had to go | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:43 - Nov 11 with 1170 views | Phildo |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:39 - Nov 11 by doogi10 |
he was sexist,racist and homphobic to a goverment commitee he had to go |
well that or a job in no 10. |  | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:53 - Nov 11 with 1142 views | BucksRanger |
Leo Kearse - Here's my guide to not being racist. Had Greg Clarke watched it, he might have used the correct terminology and wouldn't have had to resign. This guide is slightly out of date (BAME is now problematic) so please refer to your nearest woke person for the most up to date terms.
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| Greg Clarke gone on 14:23 - Nov 11 with 1092 views | The_Beast1976 |
| Greg Clarke gone on 13:37 - Nov 11 by doogi10 |
was you called white greg then ,the point his you drew attention ti his race |
Isn't that precisely what all these diversity panels are now doing i.e. drawing attention to gender, race etc?
Anyway, why is drawing attention to it a problem? Provided it is not used maliciously or offensively then what's the problem? The problem is people create a problem where there isn't one until they create it. That then does not favours whatsoever for the genuine cause which they purport to support [Post edited 11 Nov 2020 14:26]
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| Greg Clarke gone on 14:58 - Nov 11 with 1045 views | BostonR |
It was there for all to see.
A fat white man, in his 70's, using divisise language in his role as Chairman of the FA. He does not represent any notion of the grass roots, amateur or development of the game. Clearly, so out of his depth, but his Board chose to allow him to make that public appearance.
I despair at the lack of leadership at the FA that permitted that individual to fester in their organisation, as he must have aired those views with his colleagues. This was not a surprise and reflects poorly on the FA governance and leadership. A sham organisation that needs to be demolished quickly. |  | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 15:05 - Nov 11 with 1029 views | Toast_R |
| Greg Clarke gone on 14:58 - Nov 11 by BostonR |
It was there for all to see.
A fat white man, in his 70's, using divisise language in his role as Chairman of the FA. He does not represent any notion of the grass roots, amateur or development of the game. Clearly, so out of his depth, but his Board chose to allow him to make that public appearance.
I despair at the lack of leadership at the FA that permitted that individual to fester in their organisation, as he must have aired those views with his colleagues. This was not a surprise and reflects poorly on the FA governance and leadership. A sham organisation that needs to be demolished quickly. |
Isnt that also a bit offensive though? Using his weight (he actually looks about average for his age?) and his skin colour to depict a stereotype. | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 15:29 - Nov 11 with 961 views | The_Beast1976 |
| Greg Clarke gone on 15:05 - Nov 11 by Toast_R |
Isnt that also a bit offensive though? Using his weight (he actually looks about average for his age?) and his skin colour to depict a stereotype. |
If you apply the principles of the 'woke' people then, as you imply, they should be equally offended by this. But they won't be, because it's all one way. This whole taking offence at pretty much everything these days is all well beyond my comprehension. Unless it is vindictive or malicious then there simply should not be a problem. It's all quite frankly ridiculous | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 15:31 - Nov 11 with 957 views | BostonR |
Missing the point. He epitomises everything that the BAME see is wrong with our institutions. | | | |
| Greg Clarke gone on 15:31 - Nov 11 with 952 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Greg Clarke gone on 14:58 - Nov 11 by BostonR |
It was there for all to see.
A fat white man, in his 70's, using divisise language in his role as Chairman of the FA. He does not represent any notion of the grass roots, amateur or development of the game. Clearly, so out of his depth, but his Board chose to allow him to make that public appearance.
I despair at the lack of leadership at the FA that permitted that individual to fester in their organisation, as he must have aired those views with his colleagues. This was not a surprise and reflects poorly on the FA governance and leadership. A sham organisation that needs to be demolished quickly. |
Fatist |  |
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