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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related 19:41 - Jan 26 with 6078 viewsWatfordR

Received a Penalty Charge Notice yesterday for turning right off Bloemfontein Road into Bryony Road before the West Brom game. I've done that for years and years, but apparently now prohibited. Good thing I got the notice or I'd have done the same last night!!

Had a look for the signage last night, which is now half way up a sodding lampost. As far as I'm aware, no kind of warning anywhere the traffic flow change was being implemented. £65 penalty, doubled if not paid in 14 days.

Anyone else been done?
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:05 - Jan 27 with 1229 viewsPhildo

The most terrifying thing though at the moment is the high speed electric scooter organ donors together with there deliveroo/gig economy mates. Even short journeys at 20mph have become a nightmare
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:10 - Jan 27 with 1200 viewscolinallcars

Just back from a few pints with a mate in the bazaar. He claims that 20mph signs painted on the roads are advisory and only enforceable if accompanied by 20mph signs on lampposts with a red circle. These are known as repeater signs.
That's a new one on me.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:10 - Jan 27 with 1186 viewstoboboly

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 09:36 - Jan 27 by danehoop

I think the desire to make people use public transport or walk where possible for some of these journeys is actually part of the idea behind some of these measures.

Having worked in a school previously managing the school run in the morning for example was often a nightmare with rush hour traffic and local traffic competing for space with families coming to school.

The 20 is plenty traffic speed comes from the evidence that you are much more likely to survive being struck at that speed by a car than at 30 MPH.

The idling of car engines in traffic is a real problem though, but against that more modern cars increasingly operate auto stop/start systems with the engine to manage that. Add in Hybrids and increasingly electrical vehicle take up and that should also start to reduce. So again I can see the logic.

Having said that, it really does annoy me when changes are made to existing limits and are either poorly advertised in advance or poorly signposted/marked. Equally there probably needs to be a broader and more consistent approach to defining when the 20 MPH rule is applied than is the case now. I can get the use in quiet side streets or around schools, but that doesn't seem to be what is used. If we are going to say that all traffic in London off A roads is 20 MPH, then so be it - but just make it consistent.


People shouldn't just walk in front of traffic

Sexy Asian dwarves wanted.

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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:17 - Jan 27 with 1178 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

I got a nice written compliment from H&FBC left on my car that day. It said 'Parking Fine'.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:22 - Jan 27 with 1162 viewskensalriser

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:10 - Jan 27 by colinallcars

Just back from a few pints with a mate in the bazaar. He claims that 20mph signs painted on the roads are advisory and only enforceable if accompanied by 20mph signs on lampposts with a red circle. These are known as repeater signs.
That's a new one on me.


That's true. Same with the temporary black on yellow speed restrictions seen on A roads. Of course, if you're involved in an accident it's not going to go in your favour if you were exceeding the advisory limit.

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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 15:30 - Jan 27 with 1146 viewswestberksr

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:26 - Jan 26 by qpr_1968

king street from hammersmith and all down chiswick high road, cycle lanes as wide as the car lanes, bus stops in the middle of the road, no bus lanes, so motorists have to wait for multiple buses to load and unload passengers before moving.
all done as you say during lock downs.


Yep, GF lives in Chiswick and you have to do all you can to avoid the High Road at any reasonable time as its carnage with buses blocking the road.

most cyclists aren't even using the path that has been put in place for them.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 16:17 - Jan 27 with 1068 viewsWatfordR

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 10:20 - Jan 27 by Blue_Castello

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but I also got done for exactly the same offence a couple of years ago, I cant remember exactly. I live in Uxbridge and I pick my brother up from Hillingdon before driving up the A40 to White City, I come back down the A40 and turn into Bloemfontein road. I have been doing the same journey for years , always turning right into Bryony road , never thinking it was a problem until I got a penalty notice land through the letterbox.
I was really pissed off to say the least and the next home game I did exactly the same as you and spotted the sign half way up a lamp post....

I can't remember if I posted anything on the Forum but I'm sorry if I didn't ,I just felt I had to suck it up and pay the fine but I still don't understand the reasoning for the signage. From that day onwards I've driven past Bryony road and turned right at Sawley road, the burger van, you can then drive up there and turn right into Gravesend road which will take you back to Bryony road.

It's definitely Hammersmith Council using the local traffic signage as a revenue earner, I also got done by them for doing a U turn up by the old BBC building so needless to say I'm very careful not to repeat that again, it only happened because they were doing major works to the entrance at the time.....
[Post edited 27 Jan 10:47]


Well something would appear to have changed on that junction because there is now a camera in operation monitoring it that hasn't been there before. I also drove on down to Swanley Road on Tuesday, so that's going to be my route going forward.

It's not just me, but almost always there's a string of cars in front of me that turn down Bryony Road, presumably because that no right turn sign is up a lampost about 50-100 yards back from the turning.

I think you're right about revenue earner, you're actually driving further and adding (a tiny amount admittedly) more to air pollution by doing so. However, once bitten and all that...
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 16:47 - Jan 27 with 1012 viewsE17hoop

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 16:17 - Jan 27 by WatfordR

Well something would appear to have changed on that junction because there is now a camera in operation monitoring it that hasn't been there before. I also drove on down to Swanley Road on Tuesday, so that's going to be my route going forward.

It's not just me, but almost always there's a string of cars in front of me that turn down Bryony Road, presumably because that no right turn sign is up a lampost about 50-100 yards back from the turning.

I think you're right about revenue earner, you're actually driving further and adding (a tiny amount admittedly) more to air pollution by doing so. However, once bitten and all that...


See my post above - it's been signposted since 2014 and, although the sign on the crossing has gone, the sign on the pavement is still there.

It's always noisiest at the shallow end
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:09 - Jan 27 with 976 viewsWatfordR

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 16:47 - Jan 27 by E17hoop

See my post above - it's been signposted since 2014 and, although the sign on the crossing has gone, the sign on the pavement is still there.


Just had a look at the photo on the PCN. The no right turn sign is not on the crossing (gone since at least Oct 2020) and is not attached to the lampost on the pavement a shown in your photo, but on a lampost about level with where the photo was taken.

I mean it's obviously my fault, but the signage now is not obvious. If you're looking to imminently turn right, I'd suggest you're not likely to be looking for signs halfway up a lampost on your left, and even less likely if the sign is now set 50-100 yards back from the right turn. Why move the sign on the crossing?
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:13 - Jan 27 with 975 viewsTonto

Firstly a declaration - I am a transport planner by trade. I dont work for H&F, so am not responsible for the original post's concern, but there are sooo many distorted and worrysome comments here, that I need to correct some of the misinformation and bias.

1 - In the case of Byrony road, the "no right turn" sign is there. The "i didn't know it was there/lots of other people did it/i've done it before and it was ok" defences are irrelevant. It is you as the drivers' responsibility to read the information given to you. Even if it had changed recently the sign is there and you should see it and obey it. The issue is that you were probably familiar with this road and simply dont look out for changes, but this is, unfortunately, your fault. Streetview on Google shows a sign being there as long ago as 2008.

2 - You can call cameras "money makers" for Councils, or a war on motorists if you want. But if you follow the signs and dont do what you shouldnt, then the Council wouldn't make any money. Dont blame others for your own mistakes.

3 - Vehicular traffic is responsible for almost 40% of Carbon emissions. Unless you want your great grandchilren to be the last people who can live on this planet before it dies, we have to do something. just under 20% of journeys by car are less than 1km. not only is that incredibly lazy, its probably not even time saving compared to walking or cycling once you have parked the car and walked back to the shop/school/wherever you were going. 33% of car trips are less than 2 km.

4 - dont complain about being "stuck in traffic". you ARE traffic. you are as big a part of the problem as everyone else sitting in their car, all alone. Now I get that some people do need a car to carry things or are unable to walk. thats fine. but the other 80% of you dont have that excuse.

5 - all this rubbish about bike lanes causing congestion - no they dont. the road is still wide enough for cars, buses and lorries. Rarely does an entire carrigeway get removed - but in London especially, very few roads are wide enough to be dual carriageway.

6 - a 1mph reduction in speed results in a 6% reduction in fatalities in accidents. so yes 20mph zones are all about road safety.

IM sure Im going to get pelters for this, frankly its nothing I havent heard before on a daily basis in my job.

Why stop now, just when I'm hating it
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:32 - Jan 27 with 935 viewsWatfordR

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:13 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Firstly a declaration - I am a transport planner by trade. I dont work for H&F, so am not responsible for the original post's concern, but there are sooo many distorted and worrysome comments here, that I need to correct some of the misinformation and bias.

1 - In the case of Byrony road, the "no right turn" sign is there. The "i didn't know it was there/lots of other people did it/i've done it before and it was ok" defences are irrelevant. It is you as the drivers' responsibility to read the information given to you. Even if it had changed recently the sign is there and you should see it and obey it. The issue is that you were probably familiar with this road and simply dont look out for changes, but this is, unfortunately, your fault. Streetview on Google shows a sign being there as long ago as 2008.

2 - You can call cameras "money makers" for Councils, or a war on motorists if you want. But if you follow the signs and dont do what you shouldnt, then the Council wouldn't make any money. Dont blame others for your own mistakes.

3 - Vehicular traffic is responsible for almost 40% of Carbon emissions. Unless you want your great grandchilren to be the last people who can live on this planet before it dies, we have to do something. just under 20% of journeys by car are less than 1km. not only is that incredibly lazy, its probably not even time saving compared to walking or cycling once you have parked the car and walked back to the shop/school/wherever you were going. 33% of car trips are less than 2 km.

4 - dont complain about being "stuck in traffic". you ARE traffic. you are as big a part of the problem as everyone else sitting in their car, all alone. Now I get that some people do need a car to carry things or are unable to walk. thats fine. but the other 80% of you dont have that excuse.

5 - all this rubbish about bike lanes causing congestion - no they dont. the road is still wide enough for cars, buses and lorries. Rarely does an entire carrigeway get removed - but in London especially, very few roads are wide enough to be dual carriageway.

6 - a 1mph reduction in speed results in a 6% reduction in fatalities in accidents. so yes 20mph zones are all about road safety.

IM sure Im going to get pelters for this, frankly its nothing I havent heard before on a daily basis in my job.


Tonto, thanks for the post, I'm not going to give you pelters. I am going to give H&F pelters though.

I've held my hand up, my mistake. Whilst I accept it's my fault and my responsibility, if the council are interested in stopping motorists from turning right there, they'll make the signage more prominent than it is currently. If they stuck the signage at the top of a 100ft lampost, it would still be my responsibility to spot it, but it won't stop people unfamiliar with the area from turning right and being fined.

They have recently put a camera in on that junction, so they are obviously aware that there is a problem. The majority of motorists aren't turning right there to wind them up, they're doing it because it really isn't obvious why there would be a reason not to turn right, assuming you the motorist has not spotted the signage.

How long will that camera remain active on that junction beyond the next few months, given that the majority of motorists caught are going to be Rangers fans? Presumably for ever, if the council motivation for putting it there isn't money making.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:38 - Jan 27 with 928 viewsTonto

Appreicated Watford.

The guidelines on signage are from DfT. (Google TSRGD traffic signs regulations and general directives) The signage is sufficient legally for a 30 mph road which has lighting.

You could argue about the morals of it but you won't get very far I'm afraid.

Why stop now, just when I'm hating it
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:38 - Jan 27 with 928 viewsRangersDave

are you alowed to put directional signs on belisha beacons?

WWW.northernphotography.com

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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:41 - Jan 27 with 919 viewsRangersDave

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:13 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Firstly a declaration - I am a transport planner by trade. I dont work for H&F, so am not responsible for the original post's concern, but there are sooo many distorted and worrysome comments here, that I need to correct some of the misinformation and bias.

1 - In the case of Byrony road, the "no right turn" sign is there. The "i didn't know it was there/lots of other people did it/i've done it before and it was ok" defences are irrelevant. It is you as the drivers' responsibility to read the information given to you. Even if it had changed recently the sign is there and you should see it and obey it. The issue is that you were probably familiar with this road and simply dont look out for changes, but this is, unfortunately, your fault. Streetview on Google shows a sign being there as long ago as 2008.

2 - You can call cameras "money makers" for Councils, or a war on motorists if you want. But if you follow the signs and dont do what you shouldnt, then the Council wouldn't make any money. Dont blame others for your own mistakes.

3 - Vehicular traffic is responsible for almost 40% of Carbon emissions. Unless you want your great grandchilren to be the last people who can live on this planet before it dies, we have to do something. just under 20% of journeys by car are less than 1km. not only is that incredibly lazy, its probably not even time saving compared to walking or cycling once you have parked the car and walked back to the shop/school/wherever you were going. 33% of car trips are less than 2 km.

4 - dont complain about being "stuck in traffic". you ARE traffic. you are as big a part of the problem as everyone else sitting in their car, all alone. Now I get that some people do need a car to carry things or are unable to walk. thats fine. but the other 80% of you dont have that excuse.

5 - all this rubbish about bike lanes causing congestion - no they dont. the road is still wide enough for cars, buses and lorries. Rarely does an entire carrigeway get removed - but in London especially, very few roads are wide enough to be dual carriageway.

6 - a 1mph reduction in speed results in a 6% reduction in fatalities in accidents. so yes 20mph zones are all about road safety.

IM sure Im going to get pelters for this, frankly its nothing I havent heard before on a daily basis in my job.


Burn him, he's a heretic.....and probably supports Chelshyte

WWW.northernphotography.com

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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:45 - Jan 27 with 912 viewsTonto

Appreicated Watford.

The guidelines on signage are from DfT. (Google TSRGD traffic signs regulations and general directives) The signage is sufficient legally for a 30 mph road which has lighting.

You could argue about the morals of it but you won't get very far I'm afraid.

Why stop now, just when I'm hating it
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:59 - Jan 27 with 880 viewsJuzzie

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 12:02 - Jan 27 by colinallcars

I live on a 20 mph road and cars go screaming through at about 50ish. Some of them have that valve overlap exhaust popping which is annoying. No cameras and no speed humps as it's a straight road which is used by ambulances from the nearby hospital.


The road I used to live on is 20mph (with a couple of not very high speed bumps that don't really do much) but is used as a rat-run for people coming away from Twickenham stadium (about a mile away) to avoid the queues on the approach down to the A316 about 1/2 mile further on. They are so intent on getting ahead of the queue on the road they've just come from they go absolutely belters down this narrow, quiet, road. Really, really dangerous.
So glad I moved as I'm amazed no one got seriously injured. Maybe because everyone knew it was best to stay indoors for those couple of hours.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 18:13 - Jan 27 with 850 viewsCliveWilsonSaid

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:45 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Appreicated Watford.

The guidelines on signage are from DfT. (Google TSRGD traffic signs regulations and general directives) The signage is sufficient legally for a 30 mph road which has lighting.

You could argue about the morals of it but you won't get very far I'm afraid.


I'd argue that doing the bare minimum isn't enough. If people are saying that the signage isn't clear enough then why not improve it?

*Edit spelling 🐻
[Post edited 27 Jan 19:30]

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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 18:14 - Jan 27 with 849 viewsWatfordR

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:45 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Appreicated Watford.

The guidelines on signage are from DfT. (Google TSRGD traffic signs regulations and general directives) The signage is sufficient legally for a 30 mph road which has lighting.

You could argue about the morals of it but you won't get very far I'm afraid.


In fairness, I hadn't suggested anywhere on the thread that I was going to argue the fine.

But I think the idea that H&F (in common with many other councils I'm sure) aren't using the opportunity to identify an area where there's clearly a problem to make money won't wash with me.

It isn't costing them anything like a minimum of £65 per offence to install that camera, and administer PCN issuance. Like most motorists getting caught there, a notice of the offence would be sufficient to stop me repeating, and therefore putting a stop to the problem.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 20:47 - Jan 27 with 738 viewsJuzzie

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 18:14 - Jan 27 by WatfordR

In fairness, I hadn't suggested anywhere on the thread that I was going to argue the fine.

But I think the idea that H&F (in common with many other councils I'm sure) aren't using the opportunity to identify an area where there's clearly a problem to make money won't wash with me.

It isn't costing them anything like a minimum of £65 per offence to install that camera, and administer PCN issuance. Like most motorists getting caught there, a notice of the offence would be sufficient to stop me repeating, and therefore putting a stop to the problem.


The last sentence is understandable for people who use a regular route but for someone who may never have visited a certain road before has a high chance of getting caught out. Bagleys corner yellow junction box is a prime example.
Planning has to base on someone going down that road for a first time, who is probably focussing more on the road, not the regular user.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:07 - Jan 27 with 713 viewscollegeranger

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 22:07 - Jan 26 by PlanetHonneywood

Let’s face facts…the government’s coffers are empty and they’re going to try everything in the book to replenish. Speeding fines; £5 to drop off at Heathrow; fuel prices through the roof And if it’s not in the book, they’ll write it in…they’ll make jaywalking a crime next!


Non of those "facts" are correct. 20 mph in Hounslow Borough pushed thru by Labour. 20 mph in Richmond & Kingston Boroughs - pushed thru despite massive opposition by the Liberal Undemocrats. Heathrow £5 was implemented by the Spanish Company that owns Heathrow and they keep all revenues from the charge and fines. Fuel price rises are market driven and largely down to the Russian gas crisis so oil prices have risen. In fact the government actually stopped the last planned petrol duty rise as the pump price was too high. As far as jaywalking i'm sure comrade Sadiq is planning that one next!
[Post edited 27 Jan 21:20]
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:18 - Jan 27 with 680 viewscollegeranger

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 17:59 - Jan 27 by Juzzie

The road I used to live on is 20mph (with a couple of not very high speed bumps that don't really do much) but is used as a rat-run for people coming away from Twickenham stadium (about a mile away) to avoid the queues on the approach down to the A316 about 1/2 mile further on. They are so intent on getting ahead of the queue on the road they've just come from they go absolutely belters down this narrow, quiet, road. Really, really dangerous.
So glad I moved as I'm amazed no one got seriously injured. Maybe because everyone knew it was best to stay indoors for those couple of hours.


That'll be Meadway then! I live off it and it has to be the worse rat run in the borough and council will do nothing about it, oopposition will do nothing about it in the borough. 21 years here never seen a speed gun yet drive past a school in the holidays and you will get a fine! Ludicrous.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:34 - Jan 27 with 642 viewsTonto

Wasn't picking kn you Watford. Was trying to be helpful.

The issue councilsnface is knowing who made a genuine mistake and who is part of a growing trend of motorists who jelfishly ust don't give a monkeys.

Motoring offences are seen by most to be lessor offences and anger is poured on councils who are trying to keep the road safe, clear of obstructions etc. The only way to get through to these folk in the pocket.

Most of my ire wasn't directed at you Watford but she of the other comments ln here.

To answer the question "why do the minimum", there are many reasons why. Its already been deemed the requirement in a legal sense as We follow the guidelines and standards. Putting up too many signs can be distracting. Keeping it simple is best.

Why stop now, just when I'm hating it
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:36 - Jan 27 with 629 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

In Finland they fine you according to your income and how much over the speed limit you were.

Progressive.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/in-finland-speeding-tickets-are-linked-to
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:51 - Jan 27 with 612 viewsWatfordR

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:34 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Wasn't picking kn you Watford. Was trying to be helpful.

The issue councilsnface is knowing who made a genuine mistake and who is part of a growing trend of motorists who jelfishly ust don't give a monkeys.

Motoring offences are seen by most to be lessor offences and anger is poured on councils who are trying to keep the road safe, clear of obstructions etc. The only way to get through to these folk in the pocket.

Most of my ire wasn't directed at you Watford but she of the other comments ln here.

To answer the question "why do the minimum", there are many reasons why. Its already been deemed the requirement in a legal sense as We follow the guidelines and standards. Putting up too many signs can be distracting. Keeping it simple is best.


Absolutely no problem here Tonto, always good to have more than one viewpoint to any discussion mate.
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Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 22:01 - Jan 27 with 589 viewsCliveWilsonSaid

Driving Penalty Charge - QPR related on 21:34 - Jan 27 by Tonto

Wasn't picking kn you Watford. Was trying to be helpful.

The issue councilsnface is knowing who made a genuine mistake and who is part of a growing trend of motorists who jelfishly ust don't give a monkeys.

Motoring offences are seen by most to be lessor offences and anger is poured on councils who are trying to keep the road safe, clear of obstructions etc. The only way to get through to these folk in the pocket.

Most of my ire wasn't directed at you Watford but she of the other comments ln here.

To answer the question "why do the minimum", there are many reasons why. Its already been deemed the requirement in a legal sense as We follow the guidelines and standards. Putting up too many signs can be distracting. Keeping it simple is best.


Fair enough Tonto.

LTN's are a load of bollox though

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